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Given the recent history of western media and governments lying and fabricating evidence in connection to their own war efforts, I can understand views that are sceptical of the reports we are getting for this conflict. Equally, the surface level anti-Russia interpretation is understandable.
We should try not to take opposing views so personally. Our own view is formed from the information we receive and the way our own brain works. So why is it so concerning when others with different brains and different information form different interpretations? We should celebrate this and learn from one another.
For the record I’m horrified by the conflict in Ukraine, and think the West should be taking far more aggressive action against Russia and China. Just my interpretation, don’t hang me for it.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 15:41 - Jul 29 with 582 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 15:03 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
Given the recent history of western media and governments lying and fabricating evidence in connection to their own war efforts, I can understand views that are sceptical of the reports we are getting for this conflict. Equally, the surface level anti-Russia interpretation is understandable.
We should try not to take opposing views so personally. Our own view is formed from the information we receive and the way our own brain works. So why is it so concerning when others with different brains and different information form different interpretations? We should celebrate this and learn from one another.
For the record I’m horrified by the conflict in Ukraine, and think the West should be taking far more aggressive action against Russia and China. Just my interpretation, don’t hang me for it.
I won't hang you for it BUT if the West took more aggressive action against Russia and China couldn't that possibly be M.A.D and the end of all life on this planet?
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 15:41 - Jul 29 by Catullus
I won't hang you for it BUT if the West took more aggressive action against Russia and China couldn't that possibly be M.A.D and the end of all life on this planet?
Just a thought. It may be wildly off the mark.
MAD is a risk, but if we let the fear of MAD control us then China and Russia can do whatever they want, and will invade more countries in due course. Not to mention withholding resources from those who rely on them.
The M stands for mutual, we need to remind them of that. I'm not saying we start with nukes, but ceasing all trade with both countries should send a message without risking MAD. NATO should send troops too, giving Russia just enough notice to withdraw if they don't want a fight.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 16:47 - Jul 29 with 553 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 13:38 - Jul 29 by deanscfc
I genuinely have no idea what your post means/is asking.
I'm speaking about people who are quite clearly deliberately spreading Kremlin propaganda which we KNOW is untrue. I.e. we have a few individuals denying that Russian invasions took place and that mass war crimes (celebrated by Russians and rewarded by its government) happened. War crimes where the evidence is clear and overwhelming. Where official reports have been conducted, where victim, witness and medical reports are recorded, where satellite and aerial footage exists, where video evidence exists, where some of the video evidence is literally shared and celebrated by Russians, where Russians on state TV openly joke about and celebrate their evil methods. We have individuals who justify Russia's actions (the ones they admit to - i.e. not the war crimes mentioned above) by reciting slurs against Ukraine which have been disproved with official numbers.
None of this is OK or a 'ah it's just their opinion'. This is the equivalent of people openly supporting Hitler's army in WW2 and knowing that it is commiting atrocities but deliverately lying about it. Information has been a weapon of Russia's war efforts and here we have a few using it on this Swans forum. Again, not ok in any way and I can only hope that people who think it is OK haven't been following what Russia is doing in Ukraine. Maybe you and they could watch the video of the Ukrainian soldier being tortured and castrated, or the video of a Ukrainian soldiers decapitated head and hands on a stick, or read the reports released in the last hour that a load more Ukrainian POWs have just been massacred. Better still..maybe you and they could take a trip out to Ukraine and speak to those in Bucha, Irpin etc etc.
I guess it won't be long before people are arguing that it's fine to be openly racist (and other things) on this forum too. Tolerance of individuals who just happen to share that 'opinion'.
[Post edited 29 Jul 2022 14:01]
Has 100% of western reporting on this war been accurate?
Have you ever held a firm view that in time, with new information, you've changed?
As per my previous posts I'm in agreement with you with regards to Russia. But I don't believe that anyone on this forum is deliberately spreading propaganda that they know is untrue. Do you have admissions of such guilt that I haven't seen perhaps?
It's ok to get things wrong sometimes, we all do it and I doubt anyone has been 100% accurate about all aspects of this war as at the exact instance information presents. And if someone exceptional has bravo to them, but some compassion is in order for the rest of us that can't meet such high standards.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:05 - Jul 29 with 548 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 16:47 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
Has 100% of western reporting on this war been accurate?
Have you ever held a firm view that in time, with new information, you've changed?
As per my previous posts I'm in agreement with you with regards to Russia. But I don't believe that anyone on this forum is deliberately spreading propaganda that they know is untrue. Do you have admissions of such guilt that I haven't seen perhaps?
It's ok to get things wrong sometimes, we all do it and I doubt anyone has been 100% accurate about all aspects of this war as at the exact instance information presents. And if someone exceptional has bravo to them, but some compassion is in order for the rest of us that can't meet such high standards.
Did you read my post? These people are denying things over and over for which we have the most overwhelming evidence (as stated in my post - please read it again). They are deliberately repeating the same Kremlin lines even when statistics prove them to be incorrect. You honestly believe that people who are claiming that invasions didn't happen and that OSCE reports containing very detailed coverage of Russian warcrimes are faked are being genuine? They're not. And they're despicable.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:15 - Jul 29 with 539 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:05 - Jul 29 by deanscfc
Did you read my post? These people are denying things over and over for which we have the most overwhelming evidence (as stated in my post - please read it again). They are deliberately repeating the same Kremlin lines even when statistics prove them to be incorrect. You honestly believe that people who are claiming that invasions didn't happen and that OSCE reports containing very detailed coverage of Russian warcrimes are faked are being genuine? They're not. And they're despicable.
I did read your post, and felt it was worth replying that I don't believe anyone on this forum is deliberately spreading propaganda that they know to be untrue. That is quite the charge, and one which I'm now beginning to suspect you don't have evidence to support. I could suggest that making such false accusations is despicable but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:32 - Jul 29 with 527 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:15 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
I did read your post, and felt it was worth replying that I don't believe anyone on this forum is deliberately spreading propaganda that they know to be untrue. That is quite the charge, and one which I'm now beginning to suspect you don't have evidence to support. I could suggest that making such false accusations is despicable but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Ridiculous. When someone is repeating the same lines literally 20 times over despite hard statistics proving them wrong and when they are denying clear war crimes despite video evidence, official reports, hundreds of witness statements and even pretending invasions didn't happen then they know exactly what they are doing. And it should not be allowed.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:40 - Jul 29 with 522 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:32 - Jul 29 by deanscfc
Ridiculous. When someone is repeating the same lines literally 20 times over despite hard statistics proving them wrong and when they are denying clear war crimes despite video evidence, official reports, hundreds of witness statements and even pretending invasions didn't happen then they know exactly what they are doing. And it should not be allowed.
Agreed. We are seeing now Ukrainian POWs bombed .
Sorry, there are limits and Contro has breached them. This site should not ,IMO ,be a conduit to spread lying Russian filth. And filth it is without doubt .
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:15 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
I did read your post, and felt it was worth replying that I don't believe anyone on this forum is deliberately spreading propaganda that they know to be untrue. That is quite the charge, and one which I'm now beginning to suspect you don't have evidence to support. I could suggest that making such false accusations is despicable but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
That's obviously your opinion and not one I and suspect a few others share .I could and will suggest to you that you seem more concerned about the feelings of one side and not the other. Propaganda comes in many forms and from many different outlets and imo it would appear you're not as impartial as first thought
"In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master."
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:08 - Jul 29 with 513 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:40 - Jul 29 by onehunglow
Agreed. We are seeing now Ukrainian POWs bombed .
Sorry, there are limits and Contro has breached them. This site should not ,IMO ,be a conduit to spread lying Russian filth. And filth it is without doubt .
I agree with the principle that anyone knowingly and deliberately spreading untrue propaganda should be banned, I think that would be too harmful for the site.
But I haven’t seen any evidence proving this. Perhaps I’ve missed it, I don’t read every post. It’s very hard to prove that someone else knows something that you may suspect they know. As such, if you know what they are posting is untrue, it should be far simpler to evidence why it is untrue. Isn’t that a better approach to dealing with these issues?
I have less strength in my convictions than some on this site, but the following video made Putin’s actions and lies clear to me. I’d encourage anyone defending Russia to give it a watch.
Have I just knowingly spread untrue propaganda?
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:14 - Jul 29 with 511 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:01 - Jul 29 by Boundy
That's obviously your opinion and not one I and suspect a few others share .I could and will suggest to you that you seem more concerned about the feelings of one side and not the other. Propaganda comes in many forms and from many different outlets and imo it would appear you're not as impartial as first thought
My apologies for being unclear. I’m not concerned with anyone’s feelings, I’m concerned with evidence. Subsequent to your post I’ve clarified and will reiterate that I do think knowingly spreading untrue propaganda is a line and it would change my vote on this matter.
Are you accusing me of spreading propaganda? What’s your theory? Who am I partial towards?
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:21 - Jul 29 with 509 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:14 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
My apologies for being unclear. I’m not concerned with anyone’s feelings, I’m concerned with evidence. Subsequent to your post I’ve clarified and will reiterate that I do think knowingly spreading untrue propaganda is a line and it would change my vote on this matter.
Are you accusing me of spreading propaganda? What’s your theory? Who am I partial towards?
No, I'm not accusing you of that. I'm accusing a few individuals of it. And it's really obvious.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:30 - Jul 29 with 506 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:21 - Jul 29 by deanscfc
No, I'm not accusing you of that. I'm accusing a few individuals of it. And it's really obvious.
Could they just be wrong mate? Lot’s of people were wrong about the Iraq war, and that deception probably more than any other has led to doubt and questioning today.
Where I could be wrong is that I’ve overlooked evidence proving others have done what you’ve accused them of. If so I apologise and concur that a ban is in order, in my humble opinion.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:42 - Jul 29 with 502 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:45 - Jul 28 by controversial_jack
The Americans would not have been ablè to defeat the Germans without the red army. The Red army killed many times more than the western allies did.
If Germany would have conquered Russia , they would have had the Russian resourced
The reason Hitler turned east, was to defeat Russia first before the Americans entered the war. Hitler did this, but fortunately Russia defeated them
You haven't thought this through.
Blimy i explain to you to read the quotes from Trumans book and still you spout up utter nonsense so lets try again, Trueman was the president and led the Americans in the war after Roosevelt died you best look that up before you deny that is not true, Truman clearly states what i have said in his book, he explains that the exploits of the Germans in Russia had finished them even if they had beaten the Russians it would have been the last hurrah of a spent force so to speak, top historians confirm this as well, so do we believe there knowledge on the matter as well as Harry S Truman or do we believe a clueless conspiracy theorist like you, i also remember showing you what the world Judo federation told us in that Putin never gained a legitimate black belt and it was simply falsely awarded to him because of who he was and you then said that he did and they were wrong because you had seen videos of him performing which were clearly staged you then went on and told everyone on here you know this because you yourself are a highly skilled judo practitioner ffs so my conclusion is that you are absolutely bonkers and have a very unhealthy fetish for the likes of Putin Stalin and there cronies.
[Post edited 29 Jul 2022 18:45]
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:42 - Jul 29 with 500 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:30 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
Could they just be wrong mate? Lot’s of people were wrong about the Iraq war, and that deception probably more than any other has led to doubt and questioning today.
Where I could be wrong is that I’ve overlooked evidence proving others have done what you’ve accused them of. If so I apologise and concur that a ban is in order, in my humble opinion.
"Could they just be wrong mate"?
No, i don't think so. When pinned down with statistics and all other kinds of evidence they'll repeat the same simplistic line. There comes a point where the evidence is too overwhelming to deny and when the denials are just too absurd. It's more sinister than that and it's related to bias they hold in other areas.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:50 - Jul 29 with 487 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 17:15 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
I did read your post, and felt it was worth replying that I don't believe anyone on this forum is deliberately spreading propaganda that they know to be untrue. That is quite the charge, and one which I'm now beginning to suspect you don't have evidence to support. I could suggest that making such false accusations is despicable but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I'm sorry but that is ridiculous and I'll follow that with a simple question, do you believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine, yes or no?
There are posters on this forum who have denied what has happened is an invasion by Russia, are you one of them, do you deny Russia has invaded Ukraine?
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:50 - Jul 29 by Catullus
I'm sorry but that is ridiculous and I'll follow that with a simple question, do you believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine, yes or no?
There are posters on this forum who have denied what has happened is an invasion by Russia, are you one of them, do you deny Russia has invaded Ukraine?
I don't think exiledjack is of any of those views. Just doesn't seem to have read the things a few here are saying.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:07 - Jul 29 with 475 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:42 - Jul 29 by deanscfc
"Could they just be wrong mate"?
No, i don't think so. When pinned down with statistics and all other kinds of evidence they'll repeat the same simplistic line. There comes a point where the evidence is too overwhelming to deny and when the denials are just too absurd. It's more sinister than that and it's related to bias they hold in other areas.
Fair enough mate, you could be right. I haven’t spent much time in that thread but have interacted with some of the accused posters on other threads, and in those instances didn’t pick up a pro-Russian propaganda bias, just fellow Jacks.
I do think Putin has been very clever in spinning a narrative that Russia is standing up for itself in the face of Western interference. After all, we all know how much the West has interfered over the years. He has been heinously opportune in his timing and justification for the war, and anyone who has a healthy distrust for our media could understandably be somewhat taken in by his tales. He is a master manipulator but the die has been cast for most of us now and we should do more to topple him.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:19 - Jul 29 with 472 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:07 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
Fair enough mate, you could be right. I haven’t spent much time in that thread but have interacted with some of the accused posters on other threads, and in those instances didn’t pick up a pro-Russian propaganda bias, just fellow Jacks.
I do think Putin has been very clever in spinning a narrative that Russia is standing up for itself in the face of Western interference. After all, we all know how much the West has interfered over the years. He has been heinously opportune in his timing and justification for the war, and anyone who has a healthy distrust for our media could understandably be somewhat taken in by his tales. He is a master manipulator but the die has been cast for most of us now and we should do more to topple him.
I think after covid was an ideal time for him to invade, when more people than usual were angry and upset at their own governments and 'questioning the narrative'. Though, Russia has been planning this for years.
You mention that you see them just as fellow Jacks and they are, but that's what disappoints me the most, that fellow Jacks are the ones repeating some of the worst Kremlin propaganda and that it is seen as just fine. I know football forums are not exactly always the most politically correct places, but with the seriousness of what absolutely is happening, it leaves a very bad taste when some seek to just deny it all.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:21 - Jul 29 with 471 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:50 - Jul 29 by Catullus
I'm sorry but that is ridiculous and I'll follow that with a simple question, do you believe that Russia has invaded Ukraine, yes or no?
There are posters on this forum who have denied what has happened is an invasion by Russia, are you one of them, do you deny Russia has invaded Ukraine?
Sorry I didn’t know that, and to be clear I’ve still not seen evidence but will take your word for it as an accurate portrayal and not an interpretation.
You will not find any post of mine denying that Russia has invaded Ukraine. I’m concerned that anyone would believe this. Unless I’m missing something not even Russia denies it’s invaded Ukraine? Which does circle back to the propaganda accusation, surely such a claim is based on deep confusion rather than propaganda? My contention is that Jacks on this board are not knowingly Russian misinformation agents, but I probably shouldn’t be surprised if I’m wrong about that (or perhaps there are Russians posing as Jacks).
Thanks for clearing things up a little for me.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:39 - Jul 29 with 456 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 18:42 - Jul 29 by shingle
Blimy i explain to you to read the quotes from Trumans book and still you spout up utter nonsense so lets try again, Trueman was the president and led the Americans in the war after Roosevelt died you best look that up before you deny that is not true, Truman clearly states what i have said in his book, he explains that the exploits of the Germans in Russia had finished them even if they had beaten the Russians it would have been the last hurrah of a spent force so to speak, top historians confirm this as well, so do we believe there knowledge on the matter as well as Harry S Truman or do we believe a clueless conspiracy theorist like you, i also remember showing you what the world Judo federation told us in that Putin never gained a legitimate black belt and it was simply falsely awarded to him because of who he was and you then said that he did and they were wrong because you had seen videos of him performing which were clearly staged you then went on and told everyone on here you know this because you yourself are a highly skilled judo practitioner ffs so my conclusion is that you are absolutely bonkers and have a very unhealthy fetish for the likes of Putin Stalin and there cronies.
[Post edited 29 Jul 2022 18:45]
I don't care about Trumans book. I have read many historical books by well known and respected authors and I stand by my posts
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:45 - Jul 29 with 456 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:19 - Jul 29 by deanscfc
I think after covid was an ideal time for him to invade, when more people than usual were angry and upset at their own governments and 'questioning the narrative'. Though, Russia has been planning this for years.
You mention that you see them just as fellow Jacks and they are, but that's what disappoints me the most, that fellow Jacks are the ones repeating some of the worst Kremlin propaganda and that it is seen as just fine. I know football forums are not exactly always the most politically correct places, but with the seriousness of what absolutely is happening, it leaves a very bad taste when some seek to just deny it all.
You’re absolutely right, after Covid was an ideal time and he has been planning this for years. He’s waited for the likes of Germany to decommission domestic power supplies and become reliant on Russian energy. He’s built up foreign currency reserves and engineered a budgetary surplus such that they would be less impacted by sanctions. He invaded Crimea within a couple of years of the discovery of proven natural gas reserves in the south and east of Ukraine, and now coincidentally the war efforts are focused on those regions.
There is no justification for the war, it is unconscionable and I do believe western countries should consider themselves at war with Russia too and make every effort to save Ukraine from further bloodshed.
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Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 20:08 - Jul 29 with 445 views
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:45 - Jul 29 by ExiledJack
You’re absolutely right, after Covid was an ideal time and he has been planning this for years. He’s waited for the likes of Germany to decommission domestic power supplies and become reliant on Russian energy. He’s built up foreign currency reserves and engineered a budgetary surplus such that they would be less impacted by sanctions. He invaded Crimea within a couple of years of the discovery of proven natural gas reserves in the south and east of Ukraine, and now coincidentally the war efforts are focused on those regions.
There is no justification for the war, it is unconscionable and I do believe western countries should consider themselves at war with Russia too and make every effort to save Ukraine from further bloodshed.
Well said. Putin has effectively declared war on all of the west, which Contro and chums also detest
Offended by what Brynmill J and Controversial J post on the Ukraine thread? on 19:39 - Jul 29 by controversial_jack
I don't care about Trumans book. I have read many historical books by well known and respected authors and I stand by my posts
So ignore the memoirs of the President of the US who happened to be in power at the time or the words of a couple of authors ( who if it is Holland & Hastings I respect ) who weren't .
"In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master."
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