| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back 11:53 - Dec 2 with 2762 views | 9MilesHigh |
I saw on the latest match-day thread some bringing up the age old and extremely weak argument of making backward passes - as if this is some proof of a team not playing well, slowing it down or being negative.
Would anyone really argue this wasn't one of our best goals scored in recent seasons or even ever?!??
Patience, probing, possession, precision
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:10 - Dec 2 with 1936 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Privilege to have you back sir.
You are spot on. These passes that seem negative to many are actually incredibly attacking, they are laying the ground work for future paths to goal by pulling defenders out of their positions bit by bit.
It’s like setting up a checkmate in chess 12 moves ahead of the opposition. Incredible to watch when you understand what is going on. |  |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:27 - Dec 2 with 1929 views | 34dfgdf54 |
The movement in that video compared to the movement now is the big issue here, and Grimes suffers from that, zero movement in front of him.
The Potter effect ;) |  | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:43 - Dec 2 with 1906 views | onehunglow |
Sorry don’t agree. This could take a long time so I just register my disagreement and bow out. |  |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:46 - Dec 2 with 1909 views | pencoedjack |
We have lots of posters who don't know much about football in fairness.
As I mentioned in the match day thread, Sunday was a very professional away performance.
Id imagine there will be plenty who expect us to go full out attack in a very difficult away game tonight. |  | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:50 - Dec 2 with 1908 views | 9MilesHigh |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:10 - Dec 2 by Dr_Parnassus |
Privilege to have you back sir.
You are spot on. These passes that seem negative to many are actually incredibly attacking, they are laying the ground work for future paths to goal by pulling defenders out of their positions bit by bit.
It’s like setting up a checkmate in chess 12 moves ahead of the opposition. Incredible to watch when you understand what is going on. |
Cheers :-)
Exactly, QPR got into position two or three times before they gave up, got pulled about and the gaps opened.
But for this to work you need to have courage to want the ball and be flexible with your movement, you need to interchange here and there. Rodon comes out with the ball, Byers slots back, move goes on and Rodon slips back and Byers helps out in midfield. Matty who was Left wing back plays further up the field and comes into LM and plays 3 or 4 passes in triangles and it brings their other midfielders closer to him and the ball and the gaps appear on the other side. Naughton who was one of the 3 CB's slotted into midfield and kept the move flowing with Roberts covering. McBurnie drops in for the ball at the end and we have a CM running off him (Jay). In fairness to Carroll that's him at his best and what he loves to do. It's a shame for him he doesn't do the other side (physical)
Our midfield 3 to start this game was:
Byers | Tom Carroll | Celina
Wing backs were Roberts and Matty and up front was McBurnie and Baker RIchardson
Fer and Jay came on for Celina and Baker Richardson
So we did have a 6 man midfield at the time the goal went in and they couldn't cope with so many players all moving around so freely and covering the gaps. Chuck McBurnie dropping in and we had 7 operating in midfield.
Cooper doesn't take the brakes off, there's a lack of fluidity and movement and an emphasis on positional discipline.
It's getting us results but it's causing a bit of negativity from fans. As soon as the goals dry up and the 1 goal margins turn into draws or even losses, Cooper-ball will come under the spotlight again.
And it's not ball players like Matty that will be to blame for keeping the ball and switching direction it will be Cooper's lack of a pair of b0llocks. [Post edited 2 Dec 2020 12:55]
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:53 - Dec 2 with 1904 views | 9MilesHigh |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:46 - Dec 2 by pencoedjack |
We have lots of posters who don't know much about football in fairness.
As I mentioned in the match day thread, Sunday was a very professional away performance.
Id imagine there will be plenty who expect us to go full out attack in a very difficult away game tonight. |
I agree there needs to be a sense of balance, but there's fine lines between the pragmatic game, narrow margins and getting results,
Would Bielsa have worried about the opposition last season? Or would he have insisted his Leeds team do what they do week in, week out and run at them and run them ragged? [Post edited 2 Dec 2020 12:56]
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 13:11 - Dec 2 with 1884 views | Highjack |
That was a team playing with incredible confidence and swagger and we’re also going back and forward. It is simply beautiful when it works. It can become an issue sometimes though when players are always looking for the safe pass rather than the right pass. Then we only go back until we run out of space. We had that problem in our later prem years, a mixture of a lack of confidence and having useless cart horses like clucas in the side. |  |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 13:51 - Dec 2 with 1855 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 13:11 - Dec 2 by Highjack |
That was a team playing with incredible confidence and swagger and we’re also going back and forward. It is simply beautiful when it works. It can become an issue sometimes though when players are always looking for the safe pass rather than the right pass. Then we only go back until we run out of space. We had that problem in our later prem years, a mixture of a lack of confidence and having useless cart horses like clucas in the side. |
I'm going to be vilified here of my praise for Potter, but I wouldn't say that was a team playing with a swagger, we had just been relegated from the Premier League and looked to be going one direction.
The way we played there was down to management and players being given a freedom to do things we couldn't do under Cooper. Don't get me wrong it does help when you have the likes of McBurnie, Fer, James, VDH, but I'm not fully convinced even with those we would play much different under Cooper. | | | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 14:03 - Dec 2 with 1842 views | 9MilesHigh |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 13:51 - Dec 2 by 34dfgdf54 |
I'm going to be vilified here of my praise for Potter, but I wouldn't say that was a team playing with a swagger, we had just been relegated from the Premier League and looked to be going one direction.
The way we played there was down to management and players being given a freedom to do things we couldn't do under Cooper. Don't get me wrong it does help when you have the likes of McBurnie, Fer, James, VDH, but I'm not fully convinced even with those we would play much different under Cooper. |
It was fairly early in the season and some youngsters were enjoying getting proper game time.
We were 2 up here and the team definitely had a swagger at that point in the game. Also, QPR were there for the taking and you don't get goals like that all the time.
I agree with that argument.
But I totally dismiss anyone complaining about going back to go forward again. We are lucky to string four or five passes together under Cooper and it affects our cohesion and allows the oppo to get more confidence and in the game.
But yes, Potter had a complete different mentality to playing the game to Cooper.
But he could have done so much better with that first season in the Championship (the tosser)
ps James didn't play in that game and Fer only came on in the last 20 mins.
But it does seem that Rodon is better with the ball than Bennett but Guehi is better with the ball than VDH.
We are all forgeting Byers this season. He'd definitely be pushing for a CM slot and I am looking forward to his return to see if he's trained on a bit. At least he's another baller. | | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 14:21 - Dec 2 with 1828 views | Highjack |
It’s a shame we’ve lost Gibbs, he looked like the perfect link between midfield and attack. All our other midfielders are naturally defensive, sitting midfielders which has been superb for our goals against column in fairness. | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 14:32 - Dec 2 with 1823 views | Highjack |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:53 - Dec 2 by 9MilesHigh |
I agree there needs to be a sense of balance, but there's fine lines between the pragmatic game, narrow margins and getting results,
Would Bielsa have worried about the opposition last season? Or would he have insisted his Leeds team do what they do week in, week out and run at them and run them ragged? [Post edited 2 Dec 2020 12:56]
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He was certainly worried enough at half time against us to change his system entirely to match up with us.
I’m a lover of passing possession football, I don’t care if we go back to recycle possession and wait for an opening for as long as it takes, when it works it’s beautiful and so satisfying. But there were times even when we were at our best under Martinez and Rodgers and Laudrup that for whatever reason whether it was confidence or form it just didn’t work. I remember one away game at QPR where their fans were singing “you’re going back to your keeper” constantly and they were right. Our players lost all confidence and we got humped 3:0. We couldn’t do anything that night. | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 14:37 - Dec 2 with 1816 views | Fireboy2 |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 12:27 - Dec 2 by 34dfgdf54 |
The movement in that video compared to the movement now is the big issue here, and Grimes suffers from that, zero movement in front of him.
The Potter effect ;) |
Yes, potter played with wingers who dragged their full backs wide with them therefore creating space whilst cooper does not therefore it's more compact in the middle of the park therefore less space.
Simple really. [Post edited 2 Dec 2020 15:23]
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 14:43 - Dec 2 with 1814 views | Highjack |
Remember Man City with all their sparkling football and brilliant technical players wouldn’t have won the league without chucking Dzeko on and launching it into the box. I think it’s important to always have a plan B and there are times where you have to play ugly. | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:09 - Dec 2 with 1789 views | DJack |
To the OP, welcome back.
As a collective of fans we like our possesion based football... but the group is split between those who believe possesion is more important than getting forward and those wanting a more dynamic and therefore more risky movement forward.
Brendan v Michael in effect.
My view is that (as always) play to your strengths/abilities whilst you train the whole squad in the ethos that fits where you are going, tailored to the squad level of ability.
Early in Coopers reign many of us were unhappy with how it was going but recently we are eating our own words (it's nice to do that sometimes). I'm hoping that Cooper is following my paragraph above and that the club recruitment is preparing to carry it forward and upward.
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| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:20 - Dec 2 with 1782 views | nantywatcher |
And central to that run of play - Jay Fulton. | | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:24 - Dec 2 with 1772 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:20 - Dec 2 by nantywatcher |
And central to that run of play - Jay Fulton. |
I was going to say! The run for the goal was superb.
Underrated player for me. | | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:30 - Dec 2 with 1753 views | onehunglow |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:09 - Dec 2 by DJack |
To the OP, welcome back.
As a collective of fans we like our possesion based football... but the group is split between those who believe possesion is more important than getting forward and those wanting a more dynamic and therefore more risky movement forward.
Brendan v Michael in effect.
My view is that (as always) play to your strengths/abilities whilst you train the whole squad in the ethos that fits where you are going, tailored to the squad level of ability.
Early in Coopers reign many of us were unhappy with how it was going but recently we are eating our own words (it's nice to do that sometimes). I'm hoping that Cooper is following my paragraph above and that the club recruitment is preparing to carry it forward and upward.
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And yes that i what we feel.We all love the Swans,some more "knowledgable" than others! o feckn what. We are what we are.
Good luck to us all | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 15:47 - Dec 2 with 1751 views | 9MilesHigh |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 14:32 - Dec 2 by Highjack |
He was certainly worried enough at half time against us to change his system entirely to match up with us.
I’m a lover of passing possession football, I don’t care if we go back to recycle possession and wait for an opening for as long as it takes, when it works it’s beautiful and so satisfying. But there were times even when we were at our best under Martinez and Rodgers and Laudrup that for whatever reason whether it was confidence or form it just didn’t work. I remember one away game at QPR where their fans were singing “you’re going back to your keeper” constantly and they were right. Our players lost all confidence and we got humped 3:0. We couldn’t do anything that night. |
Actually he didn't.
Tyler Roberts was playing at 10 in that game in a 4-1-4-1 formation for them and they replaced him with a proper No. 10 (Pablo) - they also made a like for like swap at left back.
It doesn't always work, no, but we can't complain with the 10 years or more that made us who we are today. That was only possible by believing in ourselves and getting on the ball, keeping it away from them as much as possible. | | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 16:27 - Dec 2 with 1720 views | onehunglow |
You confident about tonight Chris | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 11:04 - Dec 3 with 1597 views | MrSwerve |
It’s not the backward passing and keeping possession that is necessarily the problem...it’s WHEN some of the backward passing has been occurring.
Grimes, while being a decent player, is normally the culprit. I’ve lost count of the amount of times we’ve been on a break and there have been a couple of options for an incisive pass, and he’s stopped on the ball, turned around and passed it back to the defence. Completely breaks up our flow sometimes.
That isn’t patience, it’s bad decision making.
Didn’t really see that in that video. [Post edited 3 Dec 2020 11:08]
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 11:46 - Dec 3 with 1567 views | onehunglow |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 11:04 - Dec 3 by MrSwerve |
It’s not the backward passing and keeping possession that is necessarily the problem...it’s WHEN some of the backward passing has been occurring.
Grimes, while being a decent player, is normally the culprit. I’ve lost count of the amount of times we’ve been on a break and there have been a couple of options for an incisive pass, and he’s stopped on the ball, turned around and passed it back to the defence. Completely breaks up our flow sometimes.
That isn’t patience, it’s bad decision making.
Didn’t really see that in that video. [Post edited 3 Dec 2020 11:08]
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As it is. Grimes visibly sees passing backwards or sideways as a first option.It kills any flow we have.It is obvious. His stats are meaningless.
Smith is ultra average as are Manning and Palmer.
Cooper is responsible for all this and he is custodian of what we hold dear so I am always going to "slag " him or anyone else involved in running the club I have known all my 70 years. It is special to me,and time has not made my hatred of losing any better.
Warnock and Pulis have sh't all over us and yet our fans ridicule them. Ironic or what. | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 19:31 - Dec 3 with 1533 views | Nortbankboy |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 11:46 - Dec 3 by onehunglow |
As it is. Grimes visibly sees passing backwards or sideways as a first option.It kills any flow we have.It is obvious. His stats are meaningless.
Smith is ultra average as are Manning and Palmer.
Cooper is responsible for all this and he is custodian of what we hold dear so I am always going to "slag " him or anyone else involved in running the club I have known all my 70 years. It is special to me,and time has not made my hatred of losing any better.
Warnock and Pulis have sh't all over us and yet our fans ridicule them. Ironic or what. |
Cardiff won 3-0 the other with less than 40% possession
We lost last night with 60% possession.
But I prefer watching us to Cardiff or boro | | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 19:47 - Dec 3 with 1513 views | onehunglow |
Personally,Ive not enjoyed watching us in the purest sense since Ivor hung up his jockstrap.
In recent times,the most proud I have been is beating Liverpool at Anfield ,Arse at the Emirates too a stella occasion.
My God,we have fans who believed Siggi was a one trick pony .We received 42m for him.
Come to think of it,I 'd better clear out the cutlery drawer | |
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| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 19:48 - Dec 3 with 1520 views | angryjack |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 11:46 - Dec 3 by onehunglow |
As it is. Grimes visibly sees passing backwards or sideways as a first option.It kills any flow we have.It is obvious. His stats are meaningless.
Smith is ultra average as are Manning and Palmer.
Cooper is responsible for all this and he is custodian of what we hold dear so I am always going to "slag " him or anyone else involved in running the club I have known all my 70 years. It is special to me,and time has not made my hatred of losing any better.
Warnock and Pulis have sh't all over us and yet our fans ridicule them. Ironic or what. |
B@llocks Grimes is quality and best passer we got his game is about switching it getting g behind as he did under cooper whe n we played wingers further up pitch and stretched teams.that's why he won every player of the year award there was.now he is going g sideways as our full backs are our width and it's congested in there.as for getting it forward in to the front men ayew wanders comes deep and Lowe couldn't control a bag cement, where as mcburnie made it stick.so its not Grimes is a bad player the options are not there,but he still controls the tempo and we look better with him in tbere | | | |
| For the BACKWARD PASS dissenters - 21 Forward, 14 back on 19:56 - Dec 3 with 1517 views | Nortbankboy |
Plus don't we look better in all white | | | |
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