| It's the system... 17:08 - Jan 27 with 5182 views | Hunterhoop |
We need to change it. I love Holloway to bits, but he needs to swallow his pride and change our set up.
We have no clear way of playing out at the minute. We don't appear to go about creating chances in a clear manner. It's all "play it by ear". The lack of clarity in how we're meant to get the ball from A to B is reflected in how slowly we move the ball, how we can't retain possession when we don't play Smith and how we lump it long when we do. We'ever so narrow when attacking: 2 forwards, Freeman in the hole, two central midfielders behind him. It's easy to defend against; opposition teams can just go narrow and crowd us out, and when they get the ball they exploit the wide areas where we only have defensive wing backs, which then requires our central midfielders to be pulled out of position.
We have two forwards (Sylla and Smith) who can get on the end of crosses. It's not much, but it's something.
We don't have many forwards though (Sylla, Smith, Wash, Oteh, and then you're into the kids)
We have a plethora of wingers (Samuel, Pav, Wheeler, Shodipo...Smyth plays there for the U23s)
We have lots of full backs and no wing backs
We've had lots of injuries at the back, at centre half specifically
We have to move to a 451/4231.
-----------------Smithies
Furlong Onouha Robinson Bidwell
------------Scowen Luongo (one holding, one the ball tackling harrier)
Wszolek-------Freeman--------Samuel
--------------------Sylla--------------------
When we're really on top it becomes a 424, with Freeman playing right off Sylla or Smith and the wingers pushed on. When we're up against someone, it becomes a 451, but with an aerial threat and the ability to counter.
We even have a 2nd XI with that shape:
-----------------Lumley
Perch Baptiste Lynch Hammalinen
-----------Cousins Manning
Wheeler--------Eze---------Smyth
------------------Smith
Our squad is built for that shape.
This shape allows us to play to our strengths:
- our 3 central midfielders stay
- target men who can be supplied from wide areas not from deep
- our full backs can play as full backs
- we utilise the wingers in the squad
It gives us width, which in turn stretches opposition teams and will free up space for Freeman, allows us to inject some pace into the side, and negates the need for our centre halves to have to play the ball out. Scowen and Luongo can do it.
To get to the point in the season where we're playing Washington & Oteh in a 532 shape, where Poland's right winger doesn't make the squad just seems, to me, like Holloway's lost sight of the wood for the trees.
I want him to succeed and certainly don't want a change of manager, but surely he can see that our current set up, especially bearing in mind the personnel he's selecting, is hindering us.
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| It's the system... on 17:12 - Jan 27 with 3936 views | MedwayR |
100% agree, 4-3-3 is also an option. As things stand we're wasting Pav and also not playing to the strengths of Sylla/Smith, and most importantly we're not getting results or performances with the current system, maybe we've been figured out. |  |
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| It's the system... on 17:40 - Jan 27 with 3816 views | Match82 |
| It's the system... on 17:12 - Jan 27 by MedwayR |
100% agree, 4-3-3 is also an option. As things stand we're wasting Pav and also not playing to the strengths of Sylla/Smith, and most importantly we're not getting results or performances with the current system, maybe we've been figured out. |
Couldn't get a stream today but saw Smith came on for Baptiste. What formation were we playing second half? |  | | |
| It's the system... on 17:42 - Jan 27 with 3800 views | Lblock |
When was the last time you saw a Manager, who has a contract that requires paying up, who has an ego, ever, ever, ever "swallow his pride" and admit he was wrong and change his approach?
They simply don't do it.
It's also wh I'm sure we'll not see any thinking coaches joining to help us out - it all shows an undermining of the manager in his eyes. |  |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| It's the system... on 17:43 - Jan 27 with 3795 views | Dando |
Been saying this for weeks and weeks. We can still fit the trio in the team, whilst getting more pace and threat into the team. Why do we continue to try something that isnt working? Play to our strengths |  | | |
| It's the system... on 17:49 - Jan 27 with 3742 views | Hunterhoop |
| It's the system... on 17:12 - Jan 27 by MedwayR |
100% agree, 4-3-3 is also an option. As things stand we're wasting Pav and also not playing to the strengths of Sylla/Smith, and most importantly we're not getting results or performances with the current system, maybe we've been figured out. |
The thing with a 433 is that it often ends up narrow and resulting in a direct style of play because there's a risk that front 3 just play high up the pitch against the opposition's back 4, with their backs to goal.
That's no use, because it doesn't offer the midfield 3 or defenders an out ball.
The key, the absolute key, is to have wingers who find space on the flanks to receive the ball to feet and be able face forward at their full back. From there, you can take the full back on, play it inside to the central midfield, Freeman in the hole, or your target man.
That's why a 451/4231 is a better shape and a better formation for us, in my opinion, and why it's different to a 433.
Second half today we played a 433, with the front 3 being Washington, Smith, Oteh. Sounded like we played it pretty direct and the only width came from our full backs. | | | |
| It's the system... on 17:49 - Jan 27 with 3734 views | WestbourneR |
So the exact formation and personnel I suggested well over two months ago.
People either ignored more or told me I was wrong.
I guess I should be flattered it’s being presented as news with all the same reasoning now.
System has to change to 4231 |  |
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| It's the system... on 17:51 - Jan 27 with 3709 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| It's the system... on 17:49 - Jan 27 by WestbourneR |
So the exact formation and personnel I suggested well over two months ago.
People either ignored more or told me I was wrong.
I guess I should be flattered it’s being presented as news with all the same reasoning now.
System has to change to 4231 |
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| It's the system... on 17:52 - Jan 27 with 3696 views | Lblock |
I think I concurred with you.
What is even more maddening is the supermarket sweep approach to wingers we've taken and we simply don't play them. | |
| Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal |
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| It's the system... on 17:55 - Jan 27 with 3680 views | RuislipHoop |
He obviously doesn't see it because he's been setting us up like that since he took over. | | | |
| It's the system... on 18:00 - Jan 27 with 3654 views | sixnil |
4-2-3-1 for me
We need to play wingers
We need to improve our defensive coaching
We need to speed up our play; it's far too slow | | | |
| It's the system... on 18:12 - Jan 27 with 3609 views | MedwayR |
| It's the system... on 17:49 - Jan 27 by Hunterhoop |
The thing with a 433 is that it often ends up narrow and resulting in a direct style of play because there's a risk that front 3 just play high up the pitch against the opposition's back 4, with their backs to goal.
That's no use, because it doesn't offer the midfield 3 or defenders an out ball.
The key, the absolute key, is to have wingers who find space on the flanks to receive the ball to feet and be able face forward at their full back. From there, you can take the full back on, play it inside to the central midfield, Freeman in the hole, or your target man.
That's why a 451/4231 is a better shape and a better formation for us, in my opinion, and why it's different to a 433.
Second half today we played a 433, with the front 3 being Washington, Smith, Oteh. Sounded like we played it pretty direct and the only width came from our full backs. |
Fair shout, rather than 4-3-3 I should probably have said 4-1-4-1 with wingers and a staggered midfield (4-1-2-2-1 if that makes sense) rather than a front 3 with forwards. | |
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| It's the system... on 18:50 - Jan 27 with 3485 views | Hunterhoop |
| It's the system... on 17:49 - Jan 27 by WestbourneR |
So the exact formation and personnel I suggested well over two months ago.
People either ignored more or told me I was wrong.
I guess I should be flattered it’s being presented as news with all the same reasoning now.
System has to change to 4231 |
I agreed with you at the time in one of the threads!! Go back and see. Certainly never said you were wrong! I've also been calling for this shape since last season, not just two months ago. Fredmanrave has been taking the piss about me wanting us to play with more width for over year. Bosh has also been calling for a similar change for a while, which I've agreed with too..
Just highlighting it again. | | | |
| It's the system... on 18:53 - Jan 27 with 3468 views | WestbourneR |
Sorry mate just pissed off about the performance and result - being pissy git on here as a result. | |
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| It's the system... on 19:02 - Jan 27 with 3446 views | baz_qpr |
It’s more than just the system, we played 4231 under JFH and it was just as turgid. We have a very mediocre set of players, two central midfielders that take 5 touches when they should take 2, really poor forwards, bang average wide players who don’t seem to be good at beating their man or crossing. The changes to the short term loan market have disadvantaged us as well |  | | |
| It's the system... on 19:26 - Jan 27 with 3379 views | FDC |
Wingers you say Hunter? 
Fwiw I agree, although the system requires a good hold up striker to bring the 3 into play - e.g. Helgusson was excellent in this shape.
Sylla is the best option, no way Smith could do it. But I wonder whether Sylla would be consistent enough to play this way? Either way, I'd like to see it tried. |  | | |
| It's the system... on 19:27 - Jan 27 with 3373 views | FDC |
Worth mentioning that people moaned about only having one up front when we played this in the past... | | | |
| It's the system... on 19:35 - Jan 27 with 3340 views | CiderwithRsie |
Waiting to hear from the "just backs" but what worries me is that there were decent defenders (allowing for the standards of our squad) out there yet we were apparently cut through twice by ten men. At the height of the injury crisis you might just have to take that but it doesn't sound good.
I'm on record as being against changing the manager but you have to query the ability to get the best out of the available players atm, whether that be formation, tactics or motivation.
Good managers get players doing simple things right and everyone knows where they play and what they should be doing; limited players can be pretty effective in that set-up. It's not what I'm hearing.
I wonder about Ollie's own morale. If that's a problem it's going to filter through to the players. | | | |
| It's the system... on 19:45 - Jan 27 with 3307 views | Hunterhoop |
| It's the system... on 19:35 - Jan 27 by CiderwithRsie |
Waiting to hear from the "just backs" but what worries me is that there were decent defenders (allowing for the standards of our squad) out there yet we were apparently cut through twice by ten men. At the height of the injury crisis you might just have to take that but it doesn't sound good.
I'm on record as being against changing the manager but you have to query the ability to get the best out of the available players atm, whether that be formation, tactics or motivation.
Good managers get players doing simple things right and everyone knows where they play and what they should be doing; limited players can be pretty effective in that set-up. It's not what I'm hearing.
I wonder about Ollie's own morale. If that's a problem it's going to filter through to the players. |
Good points. I do wonder if he overcomplicates it. Clarity is key with footballers. | | | |
| It's the system... on 19:46 - Jan 27 with 3305 views | paulparker |
| It's the system... on 19:27 - Jan 27 by FDC |
Worth mentioning that people moaned about only having one up front when we played this in the past... |
What past are you talking about ?
The one when we won the championship in 2010/2011 |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| It's the system... on 19:48 - Jan 27 with 3295 views | FDC |
| It's the system... on 19:46 - Jan 27 by paulparker |
What past are you talking about ?
The one when we won the championship in 2010/2011 |
The past that immediately preceded Holloway | | | |
| It's the system... on 20:38 - Jan 27 with 3188 views | Hunterhoop |
| It's the system... on 19:02 - Jan 27 by baz_qpr |
It’s more than just the system, we played 4231 under JFH and it was just as turgid. We have a very mediocre set of players, two central midfielders that take 5 touches when they should take 2, really poor forwards, bang average wide players who don’t seem to be good at beating their man or crossing. The changes to the short term loan market have disadvantaged us as well |
We had a weaker squad under JFH. Scowen and Freeman have improved us. As has Smith (as an impact sub). And we have twice as many options wide (Wheeler and Samuel, along with Pav and Shodipo). JFH often used to play Cousins in one of the "wide" positions, which didn't give us much width!
Also, in my opinion, the reason our midfield are taking so many touches and move the ball too slowly is that they don't know automatically where they should be moving the ball to!
A well drilled team, with a well understood shape, move the ball quickly because they know where their teammates will be and, as a team, have a set way of getting the ball from one end of the pitch to the other. I don't think we have that. I don't blame the central midfield for that. I blame the lack of width and poor movement up top.
They have to stop look up and try to find someone. If we changed the shape, had our wingers hug the touchline, there would be a more natural out ball. It would also stretch the oppo creating more space for Freeman to play in. | | | |
| It's the system... on 20:49 - Jan 27 with 3159 views | Hunterhoop |
| It's the system... on 19:27 - Jan 27 by FDC |
Worth mentioning that people moaned about only having one up front when we played this in the past... |
They did. Part of that was because JFH was so cautious and defensive minded people always reach for a simple answer (play another forward). I don't mind two up front if you play 442 and your two central midfielders are very disciplined positionally and work hard. They're basically defensive, and you attack via your wingers again.
I should stress, I think 352 can work....if your "wing backs" are hard working, fit, WINGERS, not full backs. Chelsea had Victor Moses as a wing back; we have Jake Bidwell. If Samuel and Pav were our wing backs, I'd have more confidence in the system working.
The problem though is that, save for Ned, we have a very slow back 3. Baptiste and Lynch, in particular, are far too slow at coming wide to cover and clear up the ball in behind the wing backs. Baptiste is a solid centre half in a back 4. In a back 3 as the right centre back, he gets easily isolated and burnt.
Holloway knows this; that's why we get Furlong or Cousins more often than Pav or Wheeler. The latter are too attacking.
What we play is a 532. Our centre halves get the ball, and they've got full backs to pass to....or a very narrow offering in a crowded part of the pitch up ahead to pass to. They go to the full backs who get pressed and they've got no option down the channel so have to come inside into the crowded area. Teams have worked us out. They crowd out our midfield 3 and stick really tight to our front 2 meaning we don't have the space to play, and end up with someone in the back 3 knocking it long. Watch when other teams get the ball; they go wide against us, because it's easy to get in behind the full back/wing back if he's pushed up high at all (ie. if we've just lost possession), and they know if they pull our centre halves out wide we're all over the shop. Boro and Traore were masters at it.
We have to go to a 451. Play with width and a target man. We'll be MUCH harder to play again like that, and in Pav and Freeman we have the quality to create enough chances to win games. As the players get more familiar to the shape and confidence returns we can be more expressive and ambitious in pushing the wingers and Freeman higher with greater licence to attack. | | | |
| It's the system... on 21:12 - Jan 27 with 3101 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| It's the system... on 20:49 - Jan 27 by Hunterhoop |
They did. Part of that was because JFH was so cautious and defensive minded people always reach for a simple answer (play another forward). I don't mind two up front if you play 442 and your two central midfielders are very disciplined positionally and work hard. They're basically defensive, and you attack via your wingers again.
I should stress, I think 352 can work....if your "wing backs" are hard working, fit, WINGERS, not full backs. Chelsea had Victor Moses as a wing back; we have Jake Bidwell. If Samuel and Pav were our wing backs, I'd have more confidence in the system working.
The problem though is that, save for Ned, we have a very slow back 3. Baptiste and Lynch, in particular, are far too slow at coming wide to cover and clear up the ball in behind the wing backs. Baptiste is a solid centre half in a back 4. In a back 3 as the right centre back, he gets easily isolated and burnt.
Holloway knows this; that's why we get Furlong or Cousins more often than Pav or Wheeler. The latter are too attacking.
What we play is a 532. Our centre halves get the ball, and they've got full backs to pass to....or a very narrow offering in a crowded part of the pitch up ahead to pass to. They go to the full backs who get pressed and they've got no option down the channel so have to come inside into the crowded area. Teams have worked us out. They crowd out our midfield 3 and stick really tight to our front 2 meaning we don't have the space to play, and end up with someone in the back 3 knocking it long. Watch when other teams get the ball; they go wide against us, because it's easy to get in behind the full back/wing back if he's pushed up high at all (ie. if we've just lost possession), and they know if they pull our centre halves out wide we're all over the shop. Boro and Traore were masters at it.
We have to go to a 451. Play with width and a target man. We'll be MUCH harder to play again like that, and in Pav and Freeman we have the quality to create enough chances to win games. As the players get more familiar to the shape and confidence returns we can be more expressive and ambitious in pushing the wingers and Freeman higher with greater licence to attack. |
You do understand that's a load of bolx if players can't control or pass the ball like they did today
Systems and formations mean nothing if players go missing as did Washington for the last 2 games [Post edited 27 Jan 2018 21:20]
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| It's the system... on 22:50 - Jan 27 with 2955 views | FDC |
| It's the system... on 21:12 - Jan 27 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
You do understand that's a load of bolx if players can't control or pass the ball like they did today
Systems and formations mean nothing if players go missing as did Washington for the last 2 games [Post edited 27 Jan 2018 21:20]
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Part of that is confidence though surely? | | | |
| It's the system... on 22:56 - Jan 27 with 2944 views | FDC |
| It's the system... on 20:49 - Jan 27 by Hunterhoop |
They did. Part of that was because JFH was so cautious and defensive minded people always reach for a simple answer (play another forward). I don't mind two up front if you play 442 and your two central midfielders are very disciplined positionally and work hard. They're basically defensive, and you attack via your wingers again.
I should stress, I think 352 can work....if your "wing backs" are hard working, fit, WINGERS, not full backs. Chelsea had Victor Moses as a wing back; we have Jake Bidwell. If Samuel and Pav were our wing backs, I'd have more confidence in the system working.
The problem though is that, save for Ned, we have a very slow back 3. Baptiste and Lynch, in particular, are far too slow at coming wide to cover and clear up the ball in behind the wing backs. Baptiste is a solid centre half in a back 4. In a back 3 as the right centre back, he gets easily isolated and burnt.
Holloway knows this; that's why we get Furlong or Cousins more often than Pav or Wheeler. The latter are too attacking.
What we play is a 532. Our centre halves get the ball, and they've got full backs to pass to....or a very narrow offering in a crowded part of the pitch up ahead to pass to. They go to the full backs who get pressed and they've got no option down the channel so have to come inside into the crowded area. Teams have worked us out. They crowd out our midfield 3 and stick really tight to our front 2 meaning we don't have the space to play, and end up with someone in the back 3 knocking it long. Watch when other teams get the ball; they go wide against us, because it's easy to get in behind the full back/wing back if he's pushed up high at all (ie. if we've just lost possession), and they know if they pull our centre halves out wide we're all over the shop. Boro and Traore were masters at it.
We have to go to a 451. Play with width and a target man. We'll be MUCH harder to play again like that, and in Pav and Freeman we have the quality to create enough chances to win games. As the players get more familiar to the shape and confidence returns we can be more expressive and ambitious in pushing the wingers and Freeman higher with greater licence to attack. |
Good post, and I emphatically agree with your first sentence. Edit: I mean second! [Post edited 27 Jan 2018 22:58]
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