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McClarens Dilema 13:07 - Aug 21 with 3466 viewsdaveB

Interesting article here

https://www.westlondonsport.com/qpr/football-qpr-mcclaren-holloway-dilemma#.W3v9
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McClarens Dilema on 13:18 - Aug 21 with 2727 viewsJuzzie

McClaren has to find a way to play that suits the ability of the players at his disposal and would have worked with all summer knowing there's little funds to improve.

It's as simple as that, IMO. Currently it's like asking a cat to herd sheep.
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McClarens Dilema on 13:32 - Aug 21 with 2616 viewsbosh67

McClarens Dilema on 13:18 - Aug 21 by Juzzie

McClaren has to find a way to play that suits the ability of the players at his disposal and would have worked with all summer knowing there's little funds to improve.

It's as simple as that, IMO. Currently it's like asking a cat to herd sheep.


The problem is we keep asking the cat if he can play a goat.

Never knowingly right.
Poll: Rename South Africa Road stand the Stan Bowles stand

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McClarens Dilema on 13:42 - Aug 21 with 2556 viewsTGRRRSSS

If Holloway had to learn this last year, why has McLaren got to learn it this year with lesser experience than back then.

Makes him look even more stupid in my view.
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McClarens Dilema on 13:49 - Aug 21 with 2509 viewsTacticalR

McClarens Dilema on 13:32 - Aug 21 by bosh67

The problem is we keep asking the cat if he can play a goat.


We are getting Puss in Boots on loan.

Air hostess clique

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McClarens Dilema on 14:19 - Aug 21 with 2380 viewspaulparker

when I saw the title of the thread I thought McLaren had lost another 2 strands on his
coconut matted hair (copyright DD) and had the dilemma of combing it forward or perhaps cutting the rest of it off

“I wipe my ass with your feelings.” (Tony Soprano )

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McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 with 2321 viewsWestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.

Poll: Should JFH get the sack?

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McClarens Dilema on 14:40 - Aug 21 with 2278 viewsDorse

When I read the thread title, I too thought it might be about whether Schteeeeve should shave his head or grow the hair-island into a comb-over.

Edit: I should really read the thread before jumping all over PP's work. I deserve the down-arrow.



(Pictured above: McLaren entertains the Loftus Road faithful with his rendition of My Old Man's A Dustman as John Eustace begs him to stop)
[Post edited 21 Aug 2018 14:44]

'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'

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McClarens Dilema on 14:44 - Aug 21 with 2250 viewsBostonR

McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.


Last chance saloon tonight. If City get an early goal, I suspect the knives will be out and the atmosphere could turn nasty.
City are not doing well either, so it will come down to a combination of the players and the game plan set by the respective managers's. I bet they would settle for 0-0 now, but with our defensive set-up I cannot see that happening.
Surely, we will not see Ingram, Lynch or Cousins start?
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McClarens Dilema on 14:47 - Aug 21 with 2230 viewsdaveB

McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.


He probably didn't want to quote being pragmatic as it's not very sexy and wasn't the message he wanted to get across but was pretty obvious thats what he was doing. Playing a flat back 4 with a wide open midfield was always suicide and has been this season.

the switch to a back 4 worked because he was still pragmatic with it and played Manning on the left quite a few times who could also fill inside and ensure we had a strong platform to work from.

The way Holloway wanted to play was what he did when he first came in which is what McClaren is doing now, he had us playing out from the back in his first 7 games with similar results.
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McClarens Dilema on 14:52 - Aug 21 with 2195 viewsdaveB

McClarens Dilema on 14:44 - Aug 21 by BostonR

Last chance saloon tonight. If City get an early goal, I suspect the knives will be out and the atmosphere could turn nasty.
City are not doing well either, so it will come down to a combination of the players and the game plan set by the respective managers's. I bet they would settle for 0-0 now, but with our defensive set-up I cannot see that happening.
Surely, we will not see Ingram, Lynch or Cousins start?


Lynch won't be playing, got a bang on the head so playing out from the back with Baptiste tonight
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McClarens Dilema on 14:54 - Aug 21 with 2182 viewsDorse

McClarens Dilema on 14:52 - Aug 21 by daveB

Lynch won't be playing, got a bang on the head so playing out from the back with Baptiste tonight


Still, got to laugh, eh?

'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!'

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McClarens Dilema on 15:11 - Aug 21 with 2100 viewsPinnerPaul

McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.


Reached FA Cup semi finals, won an FA Cup, reached a UEFA Cup final and finished 7th in PL.


Can't see how that is failure!
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McClarens Dilema on 15:21 - Aug 21 with 2050 viewsCamberleyR

McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.


"McLaren (sic) has failed at every club except for one year in Holland."

Look I'm no massive McClaren fan but can we knock this lazy "failed everywhere he's been" cliché on the head?

He didn't fail at Middlesbrough. For the record, his finishes were:
2001-02 12th PL
2002-03 11th PL
2003-04 11th PL
2004-05 7th PL
2005-06 14th PL

In addition in 2004 he won Middlesbrough their only major domestic honour with the League Cup and is to date the last English manager to win a major domestic trophy. In 2006 he took them to a European club final FFS! (which probably affected their league position). Statistically he is historically their most successful manager. As I've said before, Middlesbrough fans would have killed for failure like that in recent years.

I would argue that he didn't fail at Derby the first time. The season he took over they were in a great position and probably should have got auto promotion rather than facing us in the play off final to go up.

Next season, again they probably should have gone up as they were top at the end of February and bar a late season collapse (not the only Derby boss to experience that) ultimately just missed the play offs. I agree with the squads he had those two seasons that one of them should have got a promotion but his performance was still considered good enough for Newcastle to offer him their manager's job and a place on the board.

Derby second time wasn't brilliant but even when they sacked him they were 10th and nowhere near in trouble.
[Post edited 21 Aug 2018 15:33]
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McClarens Dilema on 15:29 - Aug 21 with 2013 viewsrobith

McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.


I was going to dispute this (he did pretty well at Boro and his first season at Derby he nearly got them up but ran into us #destiny) but fact checking on wikipedia I see someone yesterday has changed his three kids names to be Winston x3 saying they have Down's Syndrome. Must be one of our fans, and I don't care about arguing the minutae anymore
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McClarens Dilema on 15:35 - Aug 21 with 1993 viewsrobith

McClarens Dilema on 15:29 - Aug 21 by robith

I was going to dispute this (he did pretty well at Boro and his first season at Derby he nearly got them up but ran into us #destiny) but fact checking on wikipedia I see someone yesterday has changed his three kids names to be Winston x3 saying they have Down's Syndrome. Must be one of our fans, and I don't care about arguing the minutae anymore


"hilarious"

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McClarens Dilema on 15:40 - Aug 21 with 1967 viewsWestbourneR

McClarens Dilema on 14:47 - Aug 21 by daveB

He probably didn't want to quote being pragmatic as it's not very sexy and wasn't the message he wanted to get across but was pretty obvious thats what he was doing. Playing a flat back 4 with a wide open midfield was always suicide and has been this season.

the switch to a back 4 worked because he was still pragmatic with it and played Manning on the left quite a few times who could also fill inside and ensure we had a strong platform to work from.

The way Holloway wanted to play was what he did when he first came in which is what McClaren is doing now, he had us playing out from the back in his first 7 games with similar results.


It'd say playing pragmatic football for solidity and saying that's what you're doing makes a lot of sense vs just doing it anyway and offering no explanation.

Ollie played three at the back to shoe horn Washington into the team alongside a big man. It was a waste of time as Conor still didn't score any goals.

I also didn't see any sign of even an attempt to play out form the back in those 7 games. We just weren't very good. We also weren't wide open when we played with a four, whether Manning was on the playing or not - we were just much better. That argument is dead. The fact McLaren can't make it work is because his teams are always a mess.

Poll: Should JFH get the sack?

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McClarens Dilema on 15:44 - Aug 21 with 1940 viewsNeil_SI

McClaren is still a very good coach and is vastly experienced. You can't be rubbish if you've worked for Manchester United or England, but they are very different levels and have different expectations to what he faces now.

I'm not sure he's able to adapt fast enough to what's required at Championship level, or our particular predicament, and it's why I thought his appointment was extremely high risk in the first place.

I'm not sure he has the time he needs to get things right, and even if he does manage to shut up shop, the quality of football is likely to go out the window and also frustrate the fan base, so it's a really tricky moment.

I think I've said this before on here, but McClaren's style and approach to football reminds me a lot of Mark Hughes' approach, they're quite similar.

The pair of them tend to like to see their players match up in 1:1 duals right across the pitch, regardless of formation or playing style. It's a high risk strategy that can lead to disastrous results if just one or two players can't cope, and unfortunately there's a higher risk that happens the lower down the leagues you go.

I think it's hard at any level to ask players to do this (win your personal battles all over the pitch), but if you do, then it does need to be top class players who are capable of handling that pressure and philosophy. You need extremely competent, composed and technical players to play like this, but even then, a lot will struggle in the modern game where overloads, 2:1s or outnumbering in key areas of the pitch and transitional moments is what makes the difference at the top end.

I think I also said before that I never felt McClaren really cracked how to attack and open teams up properly at the top end, unless he has very particular players (i.e. a Chris Martin) but that's true of a lot of managers/coaches. It's the hardest part to get right, and his approach has always (to me) seemed no frills and a bit ordinary in this area.

He can probably come good if he gets the type of players in on loan that fits the way he knows how to set his teams out, but there's no guarantee, and given McClaren's age and how his style has remained relatively the same since his days at Boro, through to England and to now, it is interesting to see whether he has it in him to change his ways. The most likely outcome is he'd going to have to make some adjustments, because it will be hard for him to get the players he wants to play the way he wants.

Having said that, if the players can put in a performance for him, them and us tonight, that will go a long way to relieving some pressure and buying a little time. We've got to do our bit to try and help out, they're going to need our support and rather than panic or get angry or frustrated about things, we can help make a difference if we want. There's no doubt Saturday was an absolute horror show, but it's behind us now and we've got be prepared to look forward and dig in deep. It's about getting points on the board, and just now, it doesn't matter how we do that.
[Post edited 21 Aug 2018 15:55]
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McClarens Dilema on 15:45 - Aug 21 with 1939 viewsdaveB

McClarens Dilema on 15:40 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

It'd say playing pragmatic football for solidity and saying that's what you're doing makes a lot of sense vs just doing it anyway and offering no explanation.

Ollie played three at the back to shoe horn Washington into the team alongside a big man. It was a waste of time as Conor still didn't score any goals.

I also didn't see any sign of even an attempt to play out form the back in those 7 games. We just weren't very good. We also weren't wide open when we played with a four, whether Manning was on the playing or not - we were just much better. That argument is dead. The fact McLaren can't make it work is because his teams are always a mess.


I agree we weren't wide open when we switched to a flat 4 last season as he got the midfield shape right which is what I said before.

To be fair to Holloway he did say several times why he was playing that way as he wanted a team who were pressing high up the pitch but had protection further back. he started last season with Mackie and Washington up front to achieve that, Smith hardly started a game before November.

I do think ideally he'd have had Hall as a holding midfield player in a 4-1-4-1 formation which would have changed to a back 5 without the ball which is what he did a lot when Hall was fit but never really for the chance to do that again
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McClarens Dilema on 15:53 - Aug 21 with 1893 viewsGroveR

McClarens Dilema on 14:52 - Aug 21 by daveB

Lynch won't be playing, got a bang on the head so playing out from the back with Baptiste tonight


Crikey is it xmas already? Better get the missus a present.
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McClarens Dilema on 15:56 - Aug 21 with 1869 viewsWestbourneR

McClarens Dilema on 15:21 - Aug 21 by CamberleyR

"McLaren (sic) has failed at every club except for one year in Holland."

Look I'm no massive McClaren fan but can we knock this lazy "failed everywhere he's been" cliché on the head?

He didn't fail at Middlesbrough. For the record, his finishes were:
2001-02 12th PL
2002-03 11th PL
2003-04 11th PL
2004-05 7th PL
2005-06 14th PL

In addition in 2004 he won Middlesbrough their only major domestic honour with the League Cup and is to date the last English manager to win a major domestic trophy. In 2006 he took them to a European club final FFS! (which probably affected their league position). Statistically he is historically their most successful manager. As I've said before, Middlesbrough fans would have killed for failure like that in recent years.

I would argue that he didn't fail at Derby the first time. The season he took over they were in a great position and probably should have got auto promotion rather than facing us in the play off final to go up.

Next season, again they probably should have gone up as they were top at the end of February and bar a late season collapse (not the only Derby boss to experience that) ultimately just missed the play offs. I agree with the squads he had those two seasons that one of them should have got a promotion but his performance was still considered good enough for Newcastle to offer him their manager's job and a place on the board.

Derby second time wasn't brilliant but even when they sacked him they were 10th and nowhere near in trouble.
[Post edited 21 Aug 2018 15:33]


He did fail at Boro. Considering the money they spent, a huge amount by the standards of the time, he consistently failed to build a team. Scatter gun signings, no clear shape or plan.

He got to the UEFA Cup final by flukely pulling it out of the fire three rounds in a row by throwing on 4 forwards (including Massimo Maccarone who he bought for £8 million) and bundling goals in extra time. Dismantled utterly in the final.

If you want to know if he was any good - ask a Boro fan.

He had lots of money and a great squad at Derby and failed to get promotion twice. Teams went on bad losing runs he couldn't turn around

Utter embarrassing shambles at Newcastle.

Dumped very quickly by Wolfsburg.

England failed to qualify for WC under him.

Even Twente got rid second time round.

How much more failure do you need?

Poll: Should JFH get the sack?

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McClarens Dilema on 16:01 - Aug 21 with 1841 viewssimmo

McClarens Dilema on 14:31 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

I'm dubious. All sounds like justification after the fact - most likely fed to the journos by members of Ollie's, now unemployed, team - namely Birch.

If it's true you have to wonder why Ollie didn't quote pragmatism as a reason when playing 3 at the back. You also have to wonder why it worked so well with exactly the same players in a 4 later in the season.

No... Ollie liked a three because it seemed more progressive.

McLaren has failed at every club except for one year in Holland. I have no idea why wouldn't expect him to fail at Rangers with a limited squad and no money.


Agree with you completely that it was more of Ollie trying to be progressive than him being 'limited'.

It's more of Dave Mac presenting his opinions as fact, of course he has a much closer line to the inside of QPR than most of us and his credibility with transfers, etc is without question. But saying we were better with a back 3 and putting it in an article doesn't make it so. It's zero coincidence in my opinion that we were instantly better for moving to a back 4 and we still managed to include Freeman, Luongo and Scowen in the team whilst playing well and (occasionally) winning.

ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead

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McClarens Dilema on 16:10 - Aug 21 with 1779 viewsrobith

McClarens Dilema on 15:56 - Aug 21 by WestbourneR

He did fail at Boro. Considering the money they spent, a huge amount by the standards of the time, he consistently failed to build a team. Scatter gun signings, no clear shape or plan.

He got to the UEFA Cup final by flukely pulling it out of the fire three rounds in a row by throwing on 4 forwards (including Massimo Maccarone who he bought for £8 million) and bundling goals in extra time. Dismantled utterly in the final.

If you want to know if he was any good - ask a Boro fan.

He had lots of money and a great squad at Derby and failed to get promotion twice. Teams went on bad losing runs he couldn't turn around

Utter embarrassing shambles at Newcastle.

Dumped very quickly by Wolfsburg.

England failed to qualify for WC under him.

Even Twente got rid second time round.

How much more failure do you need?


Come on man, the quarters and the semis where Boro twice scored the required 4 goals were absolute magic stuff. Remember my dad and I going wild and I couldn't care less about McClaren or Boro
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McClarens Dilema on 16:10 - Aug 21 with 1779 viewsdaveB

McClarens Dilema on 16:01 - Aug 21 by simmo

Agree with you completely that it was more of Ollie trying to be progressive than him being 'limited'.

It's more of Dave Mac presenting his opinions as fact, of course he has a much closer line to the inside of QPR than most of us and his credibility with transfers, etc is without question. But saying we were better with a back 3 and putting it in an article doesn't make it so. It's zero coincidence in my opinion that we were instantly better for moving to a back 4 and we still managed to include Freeman, Luongo and Scowen in the team whilst playing well and (occasionally) winning.


not really about a 4 or a 3 at the back, either way can work or fail. What Holloway did quite well was the shape of his midfield and attack especially without the ball ensured we were competitive. It was far from perfect and we still lost plenty of games so don't want to paint him as a genius but was better than what I've seen this season.

What McClaren has done with how he wants the team to play has been odd to be honest, don't think i've ever seen one of his sides play like this before which such a lack of structure off the ball. He could switch to a back 3 tonight and I don't think it would solve anything quickly.

On the positive side I think a lot of the problems we've had in the first few games are fixable but he'd probably have to make an unpopular decision and drop one of Eze or Freeman and add a bit more pace and energy to the team
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McClarens Dilema on 16:16 - Aug 21 with 1748 viewsderbyhoop

McClarens Dilema on 15:11 - Aug 21 by PinnerPaul

Reached FA Cup semi finals, won an FA Cup, reached a UEFA Cup final and finished 7th in PL.


Can't see how that is failure!


Agreed.
Won the League Cup with Boro, their only trophy in 128 years
Reached UEFA Cup final
2 FA Cup semi-finals

Finished 2nd then 1st with Twente in the Dutch Eredivisie.
Dutch manager of the season

Derby finished above us in 2013/14 and McClaren was Championship Manager of the Month in Dec 2013, after taking 19 points from a possible 21.

Average career win percentage is 44.8

Wolfsburg, Forest and Newcastle didn't go well, but to brand him as a failure does him a disservice.

Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain) Find me on twitter @derbyhoop

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McClarens Dilema on 16:19 - Aug 21 with 1732 viewsdaveB

Is it OK to say he failed in 4 of his 7 jobs as manager
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