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Our country is fckd match thread 20:04 - Jan 15 with 202303 viewsBlackCrowe

On one side we have a spineless and rudderless government full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.

On the other side we have spineless and rudderless opposition full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.

Can someone please show us a third way beyond flipping Vince. Failing a Chuka et al third way then Disco, you're the man no to save us from jezwecan, Diane, Sneery Emily and McDonnell no?
[Post edited 15 Jan 2019 20:05]

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Our country is fckd match thread on 12:29 - Jan 16 with 2907 viewsMrSheen

Our country is fckd match thread on 11:43 - Jan 16 by robith

100%

They're always saying this ridiculous line of "We've lost our right to live, love and laugh in 27 countries" (they repeat it so often, it makes me physically ill) and I'm like, I'm not sure someone earning not enough money to live on working in Greggs in Bolton really gives two flying fecks about that.

I voted remain, but the way some of the remain crew have acted is like spoilt children who've been told for the first times in their lives they can't have what they want, and would nailed on lose another referendum with their "Everyone who voted Leave is stupid" schtick


Strange bedfellows! I was also a lukewarm Remainer. I think a political unit of 400m people is much too big to give anyone a sense that they can influence it, but I didn't think the risk of stirring the pot in Ireland and the punishment beating we would get on the way out justified leaving. However, I'm absolutely revolted by the spiteful contempt shown by High Remainers towards the lower orders for daring to jeopardise their privilege and status. If offered another vote, I doubt I'd want to be in their gang again.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 12:31 - Jan 16 with 2888 viewsDavieQPR

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:16 - Jan 16 by Mytch_QPR

Donald Tusk isn't wrong.

Hard Brexit just won't work - you only have to listen to the CBI and financial experts. The EU won't come crawling to us as some people suggest.

The softer Brexit gets then it really begs the question: why bother at all? - we had a perfectly good deal with a rebate and vetoes rolled in.


The same CBI and Financial Experts who predicted the end of the world if we voted Brexsh*t. Staying in means cheaper labour and therefore bigger bonuses.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 12:49 - Jan 16 with 2845 viewsMytch_QPR

Our country is fckd match thread on 12:31 - Jan 16 by DavieQPR

The same CBI and Financial Experts who predicted the end of the world if we voted Brexsh*t. Staying in means cheaper labour and therefore bigger bonuses.


Does it mean cheaper labour? - I understood that one of the reasons Rees-Mogg and his crowd want out is that it will remove much of protection employees currently have - such as minimum wage / working hours / paternity rights etc - many of which have been driven by the EU.

I'm not saying you're wrong - but educate me as to how labour costs will be more expensive for employers if we leave.

"Thank you for supporting Queens Park Rangers Steep Staircase"... and I thought I'd signed up for a rollercoaster.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 12:58 - Jan 16 with 2817 viewsQPR_John

Our country is fckd match thread on 00:30 - Jan 16 by AnonymousR

Most business is not ready for a no-deal. That means intra-EU trade will stop.

Which tariffs will you collect, at what rates and when? If at the point of departure for EU exports to the UK, you'll be required to do the same to UK exporters increasing the cost to UK manufacturers. What mechanisms will you employ to collect these tariffs? What requirement will you place on manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers to ensure that tariffs are calculated correctly at each stage in the process? How will you differentiate between micro, small, medium and large business requirements? What guidance will you provide to UK financial services to be able to support UK exporters and importers?

The pound will be hammered as other countries pull out of UK - expect a loss of up to 25% of value. This would make imports substantially more expensive.

The 'free movement' of goods is a fallacy. Customs checks would still be required and trade with mainland Europe would shudder to a halt. Particularly important to limit the freedom of movement of people.

All existing EU agreements will stop. E.g. 80% of all radioisotopes used in radiotherapy for cancer patients are imported (Technetium); they come through the Channel Tunnel or are flown to Coventry airport. In the event of no deal these can stop. Send them to Belfast is the usual response to this challenge - it'd still be in the EU. However, most isotopes only have a half-life of 6 hours and the additional traveling time will make half of them unusable. Pay for 100 and you'd get 50 you can use. There are no facilities to move the technical expertise and sensitive equipment to other airports and the UK cannot produce Technetium. It is 'expected' that supplies will continue after March 29 - if you tell the EU you're not paying the £39bn, what motivation would they have to continue that arrangement?

How will you licence EU haulage operators? How will UK haulage be licensed to operate in the EU? How will you create the infrastructure for this in 10 weeks?

That kind of thing?
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 0:32]


All the above could be said of a region declaring itself independent from a sovereign country. I think many on the remain side really do want further political integration leading to the United States of Europe.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 13:00 - Jan 16 with 2801 viewsrobith

Our country is fckd match thread on 12:29 - Jan 16 by MrSheen

Strange bedfellows! I was also a lukewarm Remainer. I think a political unit of 400m people is much too big to give anyone a sense that they can influence it, but I didn't think the risk of stirring the pot in Ireland and the punishment beating we would get on the way out justified leaving. However, I'm absolutely revolted by the spiteful contempt shown by High Remainers towards the lower orders for daring to jeopardise their privilege and status. If offered another vote, I doubt I'd want to be in their gang again.


Bloody hell MrSheen - if we agree maybe the country really is in trouble!

I initially had some Lexiteer leanings, which were immediately dispelled once I saw myself on the same side as Farage and Johnson. I doubt I could vote leave in a second ref, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote remain knowing the people who would claim it as a victory would use it to try and drag us back to a thoroughly debunked "consensus"
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Our country is fckd match thread on 13:20 - Jan 16 with 2740 viewsMrSheen

Our country is fckd match thread on 13:00 - Jan 16 by robith

Bloody hell MrSheen - if we agree maybe the country really is in trouble!

I initially had some Lexiteer leanings, which were immediately dispelled once I saw myself on the same side as Farage and Johnson. I doubt I could vote leave in a second ref, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote remain knowing the people who would claim it as a victory would use it to try and drag us back to a thoroughly debunked "consensus"


Weird isn't it! I was on the fence until Jo Cox was murdered, which tipped me into making my mind up.
I'm starting to see staying in as inevitable. What then? It's clear that even many like me who wanted to remain originally have no enthusiasm at all for the "project" and no desire to see it get stronger. Though the whole post-referendum process has been a disastrous cock-up, I have a faint perverse pride that at least we have debated it (in a way we didn't before, sadly), rather than just dismiss the idea of leaving as "Madness" like the German Foreign Secretary and pretend that no-one disagrees. I've not got involved in active politics since University (I played a small but significant role in the triumphant Labour campaign of 1983), but I would be an enthusiastic supporter of a "Never Closer Union" party, to impede any move towards stronger supranational institutions and make it easier for some other bugger to escape. Who knows, they might eventually make us a decent offer to go away.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 13:42 - Jan 16 with 2694 viewsShotKneesHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:08 - Jan 16 by FDC

This is absolutely right, for all the rhetoric about Corbyn being a bumbling idealist with no political savvy, all the data shows that he and the Labour leadership have been absolutely correct on how to play this. The current fury is over why he won't come out for a second referendum. I suspect in a GE he might do, but right now, despite all the noise, it simply isn't popular and would be a massive own goal.

Re the FBPE lot, they are absolutely mental. One odd thing about Brexit is that it's animated a noisy minority of, I think, mostly middle class men, who had no previous interest in politics. They stomp around the place demanding a return to the halcyon days of 2015--which were shit for most of the country--loudly demonstrating their absolute political naivete and demanding that Corbyn somehow magically make Brexit go away. Absolute weapons.
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 10:19]


"They stomp around the place demanding a return to the halcyon days of 2015"--

More like 1815, England sends a gunboat to any country who disagrees, press gang the sailors, pay off the countries leaders.

Back to a time where 95% of the world was treated as described in Ole Man River "You and me, we sweat and strain, body all aching and racked with pain, tote that barge, shift that bale, get a little drunk and you land in jail.

We're about to go back to those days of the haves and the have nots, the feudal system is about to be reborn thanks to Boris, Nigel and Jacob, That's what they mean by taking back control - control of the class system. Civil war is in the air,
Forecast QPR 2 Preston 1 by the way.
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 13:45]

Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me!

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Our country is fckd match thread on 13:59 - Jan 16 with 2648 viewsShotKneesHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 21:20 - Jan 15 by qprxtc

Match abandoned due to heavy fog.


Agreed. That's what it feels like atm.

Meanwhile, the knifing goes on, crime rises, more poverty, more homeless, more food banks.

And this is only the first leg of the European Cup - sponsored by the Cayman Islands.

The second leg is an 8.00 kick off in pouring rain on a Tuesday night at Wigan on a waterlogged pitch, with Gurnham SIng as scheduled referee, Andy Hall and Rob Styles as linos, with Lee Mason as the fourth official; and failed floodlights, and a train strike.
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 14:01]

Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me!

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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:04 - Jan 16 with 2632 viewsLblock

What is the future?

Ah fcuk it - it'll be what it'll be

[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 14:06]

Cherish and enjoy life.... this ain't no dress rehearsal

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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:21 - Jan 16 with 2582 viewsDejR_vu

Our country is fckd match thread on 23:58 - Jan 15 by AnonymousR

Which requires ratification by the EU27.

Which is for a temporary period.

Which would have to have a fixed end date which the EU27 will not agree to, hence the backstop.

Not a goer.


It’s a goer if there is a genuine will on both sides.

It would need to be agreed by all member states but it would be odd if their stance changed in terms of solidarity. They have all fallen in to line so far to allow a consistent EU negotiating position.

The period would be temporary but ‘reasonable’; subjective but interpreted in context, up to 10 years is the general consensus.

The dilemma for the EU is that financially it would be the right thing to do for both sides. However, it is politically difficult as it would make the position less difficult for the leaving member state. As much as they want to appear to be reasonable and rational, if they want ‘the project’ to continue they simply cannot make concessions that might give encouragement to any other member state whose electorate is agitating for change. But by refusing they risk the mask slipping and showing their real hand which is to keep the direction of travel on ever closer integration on course at all costs.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:28 - Jan 16 with 2563 viewspaulparker


And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:35 - Jan 16 with 2520 viewsTonto

I read that Mrs May concluded her speech today on the no-confidence vote with the line "we have the confidence of the public". err.... no you don't. but I will qualify that with the fact we don't have any confidence in the other lot delivering anything better either.

We are in a right old mess aren't we. No consensus on any single approach, arguments and divisions across the Country, yet the pig shagger says he has no regrets in calling the referendum. Yeah - thanks Dave.

Why stop now, just when I'm hating it
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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:46 - Jan 16 with 2484 viewscolinallcars

Our country is fckd match thread on 12:58 - Jan 16 by QPR_John

All the above could be said of a region declaring itself independent from a sovereign country. I think many on the remain side really do want further political integration leading to the United States of Europe.


This “ United State Of Europe” has been kicked around for ages despite there being no evidence of an EU move to implement it.

There are fear merchants on both sides but I really cannot see any point in putting the UK through all this mire on the basis of a non-existant threat of a USE.

HOW COME THE OTHER 27 odd countries are not worried about such a united state ?
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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:47 - Jan 16 with 2480 viewsStanFan

This whole situation was inevitable as soon as the result of the referendum was "Leave". The problem is that there are 50 different ways to leave, none of which have anything like majority support (now or ever). In addition, most of these ways of leaving will never be accepted by the EU.

So that leaves us with a few possible options, none of which will be popular with the majority of the UK population.

Add to that a very weak Government which is split and reliant on DUP. I am no fan of Mrs May but she is doing her best in an impossible situation.

As I see it, the position is now simple:
1. We voted to leave and so that's what has to happen (I say that even though I voted to remain)
2. The Government then has to negotiate the best deal it can get
3. We then have to choose between that or no deal at all
4. The vote the other night isn't going to change much - the EU has no incentive to give us a better deal

Insulting people who think differently or going on about conspiracies is only making the whole thing more toxic than it already is.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 14:53 - Jan 16 with 2451 viewsQPR_John

Our country is fckd match thread on 13:42 - Jan 16 by ShotKneesHoop

"They stomp around the place demanding a return to the halcyon days of 2015"--

More like 1815, England sends a gunboat to any country who disagrees, press gang the sailors, pay off the countries leaders.

Back to a time where 95% of the world was treated as described in Ole Man River "You and me, we sweat and strain, body all aching and racked with pain, tote that barge, shift that bale, get a little drunk and you land in jail.

We're about to go back to those days of the haves and the have nots, the feudal system is about to be reborn thanks to Boris, Nigel and Jacob, That's what they mean by taking back control - control of the class system. Civil war is in the air,
Forecast QPR 2 Preston 1 by the way.
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 13:45]


"We're about to go back to those days of the haves and the have nots, the feudal system is about to be reborn thanks to Boris, Nigel and Jacob, That's what they mean by taking back control - control of the class system. Civil war is in the air."

Why. Do we really need the EU to look after us, will we not be able to vote for the government any more. Those on the left who hold up the EU as the great protector of the underprivileged really surprise me when Jeremy Corbyn as been anti Eu all his political life.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:09 - Jan 16 with 2408 viewskensalriser

Corbyn is part of strand of thinking on the left that views the EU as a Capitalist organisation that stands in the way of implementing the socialist policies he supports. He has a misconceived understanding of EU rules on State aid. The EU in fact has done a lot in protecting workers' rights, individuals' rights and consumer rights.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:20 - Jan 16 with 2371 viewscolinallcars

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:09 - Jan 16 by kensalriser

Corbyn is part of strand of thinking on the left that views the EU as a Capitalist organisation that stands in the way of implementing the socialist policies he supports. He has a misconceived understanding of EU rules on State aid. The EU in fact has done a lot in protecting workers' rights, individuals' rights and consumer rights.


That is correct. When we had the first referendum in the 70s, which was whether to stay on not whether to join, we had a fairly left wing governmentwhile the Common Market, as it was then was right- leaning. It's different now. We have had a succession of right-leaning governments whilst the EU is generally slightly more left-leaning. Only slightly I would say.
We have benefitted greatly from ouryears in the EU. Now, thanks to Cameron, it's all down the drain.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:27 - Jan 16 with 2347 viewsShotKneesHoop

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:20 - Jan 16 by colinallcars

That is correct. When we had the first referendum in the 70s, which was whether to stay on not whether to join, we had a fairly left wing governmentwhile the Common Market, as it was then was right- leaning. It's different now. We have had a succession of right-leaning governments whilst the EU is generally slightly more left-leaning. Only slightly I would say.
We have benefitted greatly from ouryears in the EU. Now, thanks to Cameron, it's all down the drain.


This wonderful song by Paul Simon says it all.

Just listen and look at the first verse:-

"the problem is all inside your head she says to me,
The answer is easy if you take it logically,
I'd like to help you in your struggle to free
There must be 50 ways to leave your lover"

50 ways of leaving Europe and none are the right ones - so why bother.



Agreed ..... Posh Dave has let the lunatics out to run free.
[Post edited 16 Jan 2019 15:36]

Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me!

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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:29 - Jan 16 with 2338 viewsFDC

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:09 - Jan 16 by kensalriser

Corbyn is part of strand of thinking on the left that views the EU as a Capitalist organisation that stands in the way of implementing the socialist policies he supports. He has a misconceived understanding of EU rules on State aid. The EU in fact has done a lot in protecting workers' rights, individuals' rights and consumer rights.


The EU is a capitalist organisation, it is a set of institutions that regulate markets and rules on ownership: they enshrine the neoliberal model of capitalism. You don't have to be a Marxist to understand that, it's hardly controversial.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:31 - Jan 16 with 2335 viewsWatfordR

Our country is fckd match thread on 13:00 - Jan 16 by robith

Bloody hell MrSheen - if we agree maybe the country really is in trouble!

I initially had some Lexiteer leanings, which were immediately dispelled once I saw myself on the same side as Farage and Johnson. I doubt I could vote leave in a second ref, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote remain knowing the people who would claim it as a victory would use it to try and drag us back to a thoroughly debunked "consensus"


Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but are you saying that, on the basis of what some people you don't know are posting on twitter, you'd change your vote???

I'm quite happy to have my mind changed on the basis of someone putting forward points of view backed up by facts, figures and/or creditable forecasts. But I couldn't honestly give a sh@t about the views of people which amount to nothing more than soundbites and clichés.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:33 - Jan 16 with 2323 viewsstowmarketrange

Our country is fckd match thread on 10:54 - Jan 16 by Mytch_QPR

Well, it avoids the issue of the leave vote being split.

However, we have been warned of hundreds and thousands rioting in the streets if there is another referendum...(tee hee)


All we need on a people’s vote ballot is deal or no deal.If we have to put remain on the ballot paper too,the total of the people who vote deal or no deal should be added together as a total of leave voters.If that total beats the remain option we then break that total down in to mays deal or no deal and find a winner from that.
Unfortunately that option might win with only 26% of the people who voted in the whole thing,but that is how it will have to work,or it will split the leave votes enough to allow remain to win.

Nothing that has been suggested will ever make people happy,and my option won’t either,but if remain is on the ballot paper,the people who vote for either leave option must be totalled together in my opinion.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:34 - Jan 16 with 2320 viewskensalriser

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:20 - Jan 16 by colinallcars

That is correct. When we had the first referendum in the 70s, which was whether to stay on not whether to join, we had a fairly left wing governmentwhile the Common Market, as it was then was right- leaning. It's different now. We have had a succession of right-leaning governments whilst the EU is generally slightly more left-leaning. Only slightly I would say.
We have benefitted greatly from ouryears in the EU. Now, thanks to Cameron, it's all down the drain.


It's no coincidence that the UK's economic fortunes started to turn around after we joined the EU. We were a complete basket case in the 70s, failing and incompetently managed nationalised industries, bad industrial relations and still suffering from WW2 debt burdens. All that notwithstanding, there was actually a much smaller gap between rich and poor than there is now.

The EU was founded primarily to prevent another devastating war and it has been comprehensively successful on that count. But secondarily, people must have been looking at the new economic dominance of the US: one huge market, one currency, freedom of movement and thinking there's only one way to compete with that.

Unlike others, I don't have a huge problem with the concept of a federalised Europe. The only thing that gives me pause is the prospect of the EU being taken over by the far right, which is quite a lot less far fetched than it was just a few years ago.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 15:37 - Jan 16 with 2310 viewskensalriser

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:29 - Jan 16 by FDC

The EU is a capitalist organisation, it is a set of institutions that regulate markets and rules on ownership: they enshrine the neoliberal model of capitalism. You don't have to be a Marxist to understand that, it's hardly controversial.


You missed the qualifying part of the sentence.

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Our country is fckd match thread on 16:22 - Jan 16 with 2221 viewsFDC

Our country is fckd match thread on 15:37 - Jan 16 by kensalriser

You missed the qualifying part of the sentence.


"The EU in fact has done a lot in protecting workers' rights, individuals' rights and consumer right"

This^? Labour has constantly pressed the government to guarantee that workers' rights, environmental standards etc do not decline as a result of leaving the EU.
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Our country is fckd match thread on 16:27 - Jan 16 with 2201 viewsFDC

Our country is fckd match thread on 13:00 - Jan 16 by robith

Bloody hell MrSheen - if we agree maybe the country really is in trouble!

I initially had some Lexiteer leanings, which were immediately dispelled once I saw myself on the same side as Farage and Johnson. I doubt I could vote leave in a second ref, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to vote remain knowing the people who would claim it as a victory would use it to try and drag us back to a thoroughly debunked "consensus"


Same.

On Lexit, there was a decent debate on the NEF Weekly Economics podcast this week between Grace Blakely (Lexit) and Laurie Macfarlane (Remain and Reform). Still not 100% sure which way I lean, probably towards Laurie's argument. But Grace does make some compelling arguments.

https://soundcloud.com/weeklyeconomicspodcast/lexit-vs-remain-and-reform
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