| Tory Leadership Race 09:57 - May 31 with 58050 views | Dorse |
Not a party political thing or a reason for an LFW punch-up, but I keep having the eerie feeling that eventually every single Tory MP will put themselves forward leaving Teresa May with the casting vote. At which point, she cackles maniacally and slowly points at Jacob Rees Mogg sitting at the back, with the entire parliamentary party turning to stare at him... He is seen to gulp and mutter 'Oh, copulate my happenstance' |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 20:27 - Jun 11 with 1640 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Surely something that takes this long can no longer be called a race? |  |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 20:30 - Jun 11 with 1639 views | QPR_John |
| Tory Leadership Race on 17:04 - Jun 11 by baldyoldgit |
and as if on cue:
"Labour has tabled a cross-party motion to stop a future prime minister pushing through a no-deal Brexit against the wishes of MPs.
The party plans to force a vote on Wednesday, which would give MPs control of the timetable on 25 June.
Labour says if the motion passes, MPs will be able to introduce legislation to avoid a no-deal scenario at the end of October.
Some Tory leadership hopefuls have said they would leave the EU without a deal.
The government normally controls business in the Commons - but MPs have previously seized control to legislate in favour of extending the Brexit process." |
This is what confuses me and maybe somebody can explain.
The EU will not renegotiate a new withdrawal agreement
Parliament will not pass the current withdrawal agreement
Parliament will legislate to not leave without a deal
The only conclusion is that we will not leave on 31st October. So we get an extension and the whole thing starts again
The EU will not renegotiate........ etc etc etc
So the only way out is a second referendum. But what will the question(s) be, my guess
Remain
Current Deal
No deal
Thus splitting the leave vote and remain comes through on the rails. Job done for our defenders of democracy. |  | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 20:52 - Jun 11 with 1596 views | baldyoldgit |
| Tory Leadership Race on 20:30 - Jun 11 by QPR_John |
This is what confuses me and maybe somebody can explain.
The EU will not renegotiate a new withdrawal agreement
Parliament will not pass the current withdrawal agreement
Parliament will legislate to not leave without a deal
The only conclusion is that we will not leave on 31st October. So we get an extension and the whole thing starts again
The EU will not renegotiate........ etc etc etc
So the only way out is a second referendum. But what will the question(s) be, my guess
Remain
Current Deal
No deal
Thus splitting the leave vote and remain comes through on the rails. Job done for our defenders of democracy. |
i don't think you can really ask such a loaded question by putting 3 options at once. not sure the electoral commission will let that fly. is there a precedent for three way referendums? (genuinely dont know).
cant put may's deal on there as it's been voted down 3 times already so that leaves WTO or remain. But then what happens if no deal wins! parliament won't let it happen. round and round we go.
eventually, i think, either a tory will be brave enough or corbyn gets the push and a remainer PM will jib the whole sorry mess. it's the only way we can all move on to more important things. | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 21:04 - Jun 11 with 1572 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Tory Leadership Race on 20:30 - Jun 11 by QPR_John |
This is what confuses me and maybe somebody can explain.
The EU will not renegotiate a new withdrawal agreement
Parliament will not pass the current withdrawal agreement
Parliament will legislate to not leave without a deal
The only conclusion is that we will not leave on 31st October. So we get an extension and the whole thing starts again
The EU will not renegotiate........ etc etc etc
So the only way out is a second referendum. But what will the question(s) be, my guess
Remain
Current Deal
No deal
Thus splitting the leave vote and remain comes through on the rails. Job done for our defenders of democracy. |
Moved [Post edited 11 Jun 2019 21:24]
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| Tory Leadership Race on 21:15 - Jun 11 with 1538 views | CamberleyR |
Any chance of keeping the Brexit/Remain posts to the other 70+ page boreathon? |  |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 21:21 - Jun 11 with 1522 views | Maggsinho |
| Tory Leadership Race on 21:15 - Jun 11 by CamberleyR |
Any chance of keeping the Brexit/Remain posts to the other 70+ page boreathon? |
We should have a vote on whether the Brexit posts remain or leave. |  | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 21:24 - Jun 11 with 1509 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Tory Leadership Race on 21:15 - Jun 11 by CamberleyR |
Any chance of keeping the Brexit/Remain posts to the other 70+ page boreathon? |
Moved | |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 21:46 - Jun 11 with 1477 views | Hooparoo |
Seconded |  |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 22:01 - Jun 11 with 1461 views | derbyhoop |
| Tory Leadership Race on 21:04 - Jun 11 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
Moved [Post edited 11 Jun 2019 21:24]
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The flaw in your argument is the implication that, because there was a vote on 23 June 2016, the result lasts forever. If not, how long should the result be binding?When you consider that, in 2015, the Tories won an overall majority but lost it in the 2017 GE, then why would any vote be permanent? Especially when circumstances have changed significantly. All of us, Leavers or Remainers know a lot more now than we did in 2016.
I have grave reservations about a 2nd referendum. Can a binary choice be offered? Given the mess that has resulted from a simple binary choice about very complex issues, should we go down a similar path. Doesn't really matter if you add a 3rd option. Just makes things even more difficult.
We are supposed to be a representative democracy. Perhaps we should leave decisions on complex choices to the elected representatives, our MPs. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 22:16 - Jun 11 with 1417 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Tory Leadership Race on 22:01 - Jun 11 by derbyhoop |
The flaw in your argument is the implication that, because there was a vote on 23 June 2016, the result lasts forever. If not, how long should the result be binding?When you consider that, in 2015, the Tories won an overall majority but lost it in the 2017 GE, then why would any vote be permanent? Especially when circumstances have changed significantly. All of us, Leavers or Remainers know a lot more now than we did in 2016.
I have grave reservations about a 2nd referendum. Can a binary choice be offered? Given the mess that has resulted from a simple binary choice about very complex issues, should we go down a similar path. Doesn't really matter if you add a 3rd option. Just makes things even more difficult.
We are supposed to be a representative democracy. Perhaps we should leave decisions on complex choices to the elected representatives, our MPs. |
see above, been moved | |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 22:38 - Jun 11 with 1390 views | QPR_John |
| Tory Leadership Race on 22:01 - Jun 11 by derbyhoop |
The flaw in your argument is the implication that, because there was a vote on 23 June 2016, the result lasts forever. If not, how long should the result be binding?When you consider that, in 2015, the Tories won an overall majority but lost it in the 2017 GE, then why would any vote be permanent? Especially when circumstances have changed significantly. All of us, Leavers or Remainers know a lot more now than we did in 2016.
I have grave reservations about a 2nd referendum. Can a binary choice be offered? Given the mess that has resulted from a simple binary choice about very complex issues, should we go down a similar path. Doesn't really matter if you add a 3rd option. Just makes things even more difficult.
We are supposed to be a representative democracy. Perhaps we should leave decisions on complex choices to the elected representatives, our MPs. |
"The flaw in your argument is the implication that, because there was a vote on 23 June 2016, the result lasts forever. If not, how long should the result be binding?"
A plausible argument but it would also apply should a second referendum produced a remain decision. | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 23:17 - Jun 11 with 1350 views | CamberleyR |
| Tory Leadership Race on 22:38 - Jun 11 by QPR_John |
"The flaw in your argument is the implication that, because there was a vote on 23 June 2016, the result lasts forever. If not, how long should the result be binding?"
A plausible argument but it would also apply should a second referendum produced a remain decision. |
Any chance of keeping the Brexit/Remain posts to the 70+ page boreathon? This thread will go the same way otherwise. | |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 23:21 - Jun 11 with 1343 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Tory Leadership Race on 23:17 - Jun 11 by CamberleyR |
Any chance of keeping the Brexit/Remain posts to the 70+ page boreathon? This thread will go the same way otherwise. |
He was in Game of Thrones wasn’t he? |  | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 23:25 - Jun 11 with 1337 views | FDC |
Here he is, The Great Sensible Hope.
Thoughts and prayers at this difficult time for everyone who thought Rory Stewart was going to stop Brexit
. |  | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 23:42 - Jun 11 with 1317 views | baldyoldgit |
| Tory Leadership Race on 23:25 - Jun 11 by FDC |
Here he is, The Great Sensible Hope.
Thoughts and prayers at this difficult time for everyone who thought Rory Stewart was going to stop Brexit
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doesn't matter which one wins, there'll still be a vote of no confidence. | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 00:56 - Jun 12 with 1277 views | DannyPaddox |
| Tory Leadership Race on 20:27 - Jun 11 by BrianMcCarthy |
Surely something that takes this long can no longer be called a race? |
It's a fkin disg-race. |  | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 01:36 - Jun 12 with 1268 views | kensalriser |
| Tory Leadership Race on 23:25 - Jun 11 by FDC |
Here he is, The Great Sensible Hope.
Thoughts and prayers at this difficult time for everyone who thought Rory Stewart was going to stop Brexit
. |
Oh no!
So it turns out Stewart is actually, gasp, a Tory. Shocked. |  |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 07:08 - Jun 12 with 1211 views | Mistication92 |
**Sorry to keep coming back to this, but possible HoC scenarios interests me far more than insults being hurled about Leave/Remain**
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"You could promise no border in the Irish Sea. You win the DUP, but then you can't Brexit, so you'd lose as many Tory votes as you gained with the DUP.
No confidence, general election."
But are the ERG really going to vote no confidence in that timeline? Wouldn't it be more likely that they grumble loudly but reluctantly vote it through and then sit tight for 2 years hoping the electoral threat of BXP recedes by 2022. Or would they defect to BXP? I'm not sure. AFAIK members of a governing party voting down its own government is unprecedented. The Tory party always seems to pull through.
"You could promise to put a border in Ireland. Break the Good Friday Agreement. America would go mental, you would get no trade with them or with Europe.
No confidence, general election."
Who are the crucial no votes in this scenario? I don't think the DUP would mind a hard border? If the DUP are ok with it, do the rest of the Tories really care that much about a border in NI?
I can see the final two you said as realistic. | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 07:10 - Jun 12 with 1210 views | derbyhoop |
| Tory Leadership Race on 22:38 - Jun 11 by QPR_John |
"The flaw in your argument is the implication that, because there was a vote on 23 June 2016, the result lasts forever. If not, how long should the result be binding?"
A plausible argument but it would also apply should a second referendum produced a remain decision. |
Agreed. Especially if it was 52:48 Remain.
Maybe we should rely on 1975 referendum. Or no referendum at all. | |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 10:16 - Jun 12 with 1138 views | baldyoldgit |
| Tory Leadership Race on 07:08 - Jun 12 by Mistication92 |
**Sorry to keep coming back to this, but possible HoC scenarios interests me far more than insults being hurled about Leave/Remain**
---
"You could promise no border in the Irish Sea. You win the DUP, but then you can't Brexit, so you'd lose as many Tory votes as you gained with the DUP.
No confidence, general election."
But are the ERG really going to vote no confidence in that timeline? Wouldn't it be more likely that they grumble loudly but reluctantly vote it through and then sit tight for 2 years hoping the electoral threat of BXP recedes by 2022. Or would they defect to BXP? I'm not sure. AFAIK members of a governing party voting down its own government is unprecedented. The Tory party always seems to pull through.
"You could promise to put a border in Ireland. Break the Good Friday Agreement. America would go mental, you would get no trade with them or with Europe.
No confidence, general election."
Who are the crucial no votes in this scenario? I don't think the DUP would mind a hard border? If the DUP are ok with it, do the rest of the Tories really care that much about a border in NI?
I can see the final two you said as realistic. |
**agreed. long past all the leave/remain arguments. i like applying logic to see where we're going. I think that May's red lines and wasting 3 years have got us to where we are today and it's pointless getting annoyed anymore. However, as it looks more and more like brexit will be delayed again and probably/possibly cancelled it's likely all that "dry your eyes losers" & "you don't even know what you voted for" will just commence all over again.**
The logical argument (this isn't all my thinking either it jut makes logical sense to me) is that if/when we leave then a 'new' border needs to go somewhere unless we stay in the SM and the CU and abide by all it's rules, including the FoM. I'd say for most leavers that this isn't brexit. Technology isn't going to cut it as no one has come up with any semi-serious proposal.
So:
"You could promise no border in the Irish Sea. You win the DUP, but then you can't Brexit, so you'd lose as many Tory votes as you gained with the DUP.
No confidence, general election."
I think a few of the ERG would vote against the new PM as no border at all means no brexit. You cant vote for 'no border in the irish sea' as it's an option of what not to do, it's isn't an outcome. The border has to go somewhere. The DUP care more about them remaining British than in/out of EU. The very last thing they want is a border in the Irish Sea.
"You could promise to put a border in Ireland. Break the Good Friday Agreement. America would go mental, you would get no trade with them or with Europe.
No confidence, general election."
You're right in that I don't think the DUP would mind - it'd be like the good old days! Enough Tory MPs, in my opinion, know that forcing a border on both sides and breaking the GFA would be an international disaster. Countries deliberately breaking internationally adopted treaties tends to lead to wars. Any idea when the last the UK or even Britain broke one? Thatcher famously said "Britain does not break Treaties.". Also, I think it would lead to another referendum on a united Ireland, not sure the DUP would enjoy that scenario. | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 10:19 - Jun 12 with 1131 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Tory Leadership Race on 07:10 - Jun 12 by derbyhoop |
Agreed. Especially if it was 52:48 Remain.
Maybe we should rely on 1975 referendum. Or no referendum at all. |
Well that was about remaining in the EEC. so ok let's go back to that. | |
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| Tory Leadership Race on 10:33 - Jun 12 with 1113 views | QPR_John |
| Tory Leadership Race on 07:10 - Jun 12 by derbyhoop |
Agreed. Especially if it was 52:48 Remain.
Maybe we should rely on 1975 referendum. Or no referendum at all. |
The 1975 referendum is immaterial as the EU is a different beast from the one we voted to join then.
Although I would have voted leave I really think the 2016 referendum should have required at least a 60% vote to leave. If that had been the case and leave had won there would have been no question and the last three years would have been better spent. But that is all academic now.
I think referendums(referenda????) are necessary to gauge the public mood when there is a question where all major parties agree as is the case with the EU | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 11:06 - Jun 12 with 1072 views | Northernr |
If this is just going to turn into another back and forth about Brexit it can go on the 77 page wnkathon thread please. |  | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 11:17 - Jun 12 with 1052 views | baldyoldgit |
| Tory Leadership Race on 11:06 - Jun 12 by Northernr |
If this is just going to turn into another back and forth about Brexit it can go on the 77 page wnkathon thread please. |
haha, do you think a discussion about the next tory leader is anything other than a "wnkathon" about brexit? it's the only game in town. they can all spunk off about tax cuts, VAT, national service, blah, blah, but it all comes back to just one thing. | | | |
| Tory Leadership Race on 11:24 - Jun 12 with 1032 views | Northernr |
| Tory Leadership Race on 11:17 - Jun 12 by baldyoldgit |
haha, do you think a discussion about the next tory leader is anything other than a "wnkathon" about brexit? it's the only game in town. they can all spunk off about tax cuts, VAT, national service, blah, blah, but it all comes back to just one thing. |
Fantastic, then we only need one thread. | | | |
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