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When did we become so nasty? 12:56 - Jan 26 with 2141 viewsWrightUp5hit___

Over the years I have been a member of the various forums (fora?) that have appeared as the wonderful connected world has evolved. From the original newsgroup, through the various .orgs and ending up here on LFW. Yes there have been sites ahead of their time. Back in the drummer boy days, WATRB's was a cess pit for aggrieved, pubescents to vent their spleen. On the other hand LFW in its various guises has always seemed to follow the happy median of sensible comment and freedom of speech.
These days of course the number of fora have multiplied with many excellent places are sadly underused, Indy R's, and have been joined by Facebook groups and the wonderful unfettered opportunity to post invective of Twitter.
Over the past twenty odd years, while all of this has been developing, Rangers have been on our usual manic depressive roller coaster. At every level we have had both truly appalling, and inspirational people involved in our club. Both inept and competent.
However, in this time we seem to have pushed the boundaries where criticism was reasonably argued, yes strongly and urgently, but never with the poisonous invective we seem to find as the norm today.
Players, management, administration and ownership should never be above criticism but the spiteful comments seems to be on an ever more toxic level.
The abuse heaped on Joe Lumley and Josh Scowen has been horrendous. Yes we have always had an appetite for destroying our own. I remember the abuse Mick Leach used to take. I recall only to well the Loft singing “Hello, hello Masson must go”. But directly messaging players and telling them to fnck off an die is a whole different level.
The Click bait sites are currently making merry on harvesting Tweets regarding Jack Clarkes full debut. A kid who has barely played for a year is being told to fnck off as he is complete waste of time.
I’m not sure why I have written this post. I know that there is not a chance of attitudes miraculously changing. In many ways it reflects changes in society in general where it is open house for absolute black and white criticism of politicians, slebs or indeed anyone who sticks their head above the parapet. No allowances for shades of grey in arguments.

But it is all so hugely self destructive.
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When did we become so nasty? on 13:09 - Jan 26 with 2096 viewsRangersw12

Out of interest has anyone actually seen the abuse Lumley and Scowen got to make them off Twitter?

I use Twitter and I see people saying they're not good enough but haven't really seen the "f off and die" sort of stuff
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When did we become so nasty? on 13:10 - Jan 26 with 2090 viewsJuzzie

Humans have always been nasty. Up until a decade or two ago there were few ways to vent your nastiness.

Now its easy to do with so many online platforms. Bullying really. Sad, insecure people who feel better about themselves by being relatively hidden.
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When did we become so nasty? on 13:18 - Jan 26 with 2057 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

I think we have all become more nasty and unhappy in general, because of a litany of problems in the world and the anonymous nature of an football Internet forum has added to it’s usefulness as a weird sort of release mechanism. It’s no coincidence that the most negative about QPR are usually the same ones who are most negative about the world in general. I know I lay the politics on a bit thick but there is a parallel between those that make snide remarks about society and those that make snide remarks about Lumley.

Part of that process is identifying a useful punchbag. It was nearly Scowen or Hugill, but Lumley has flown out the traps with a terrible bit of from to steal the title. Rest assured as soon as Lumley is out the picture it will be someone else, even if we were unbeaten at the top of the league. Remember when Warnock took us up? Some of us were still slating Rob Hulse and Matthew Connolly.

I’m a big believer that the silent majority just get on with it and the stadium experience rarely reflects the forum.

Be more like Brian McCarthy I say.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 13:28]
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When did we become so nasty? on 13:28 - Jan 26 with 2026 viewsParkRoyalR

Brilliant post, although easy to say its the youngsters and twitter, also a few on here who have a few lager tops after home games and are just obnoxious with fellow posters who may disagree with their point of view.

Also can never work out how some players come in for abuse from our fans Scowen (never gives less than 100% and held us together when we rubbish) and now Clarke (young, coming back from injury and yet to play more than 90 minutes for us) whereas others somehow become fans favourites (i won't mention names so as not to be provocative) and get a free pass regardless of performance (and more importantly effort).

We still have a good percentage of fans yet to be won over to Eze, and who just cannot wait to get on his back, just so they can say they were right, he's lazy blah blah blah.

I want to see Lumley do well, likewise Leistner, (and same said for Washington before), whether or not they can cut it in the Championship does not give me the right to be abusive as all of the aforementioned do their best.
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When did we become so nasty? on 13:57 - Jan 26 with 1899 viewsBoston

Pre 1997, most supporters got their opinions from being at the game, reading the programme, back pages of the current bun or talking to other fans down the pub. It was generally a far more rational way to ingest information and, what with the limited exposure to other fans, arsehole views weren't contagious the way they are now. New media has a toxic side, football is not immune. I blame the parents.

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When did we become so nasty? on 14:38 - Jan 26 with 1809 viewscolinallcars

When did we become so nasty? on 13:57 - Jan 26 by Boston

Pre 1997, most supporters got their opinions from being at the game, reading the programme, back pages of the current bun or talking to other fans down the pub. It was generally a far more rational way to ingest information and, what with the limited exposure to other fans, arsehole views weren't contagious the way they are now. New media has a toxic side, football is not immune. I blame the parents.


I blame the parent in the singular.
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When did we become so nasty? on 14:53 - Jan 26 with 1766 viewsPlanetHonneywood

Approximately 10pm on 26 November 2002....bloody Vauxhall Motors!
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 17:29]

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When did we become so nasty? on 15:04 - Jan 26 with 1737 viewspeejaybee

When did we become so nasty? on 13:18 - Jan 26 by BazzaInTheLoft

I think we have all become more nasty and unhappy in general, because of a litany of problems in the world and the anonymous nature of an football Internet forum has added to it’s usefulness as a weird sort of release mechanism. It’s no coincidence that the most negative about QPR are usually the same ones who are most negative about the world in general. I know I lay the politics on a bit thick but there is a parallel between those that make snide remarks about society and those that make snide remarks about Lumley.

Part of that process is identifying a useful punchbag. It was nearly Scowen or Hugill, but Lumley has flown out the traps with a terrible bit of from to steal the title. Rest assured as soon as Lumley is out the picture it will be someone else, even if we were unbeaten at the top of the league. Remember when Warnock took us up? Some of us were still slating Rob Hulse and Matthew Connolly.

I’m a big believer that the silent majority just get on with it and the stadium experience rarely reflects the forum.

Be more like Brian McCarthy I say.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 13:28]


I second that last sentence.

If at first you dont succeed, pack up and f**k off home.

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When did we become so nasty? on 15:18 - Jan 26 with 1699 viewspaulparker

let’s see

The Chris Wright era
Wimbledon merger
Administration
The paladni years
Holloway sacked 1st time
The China brawl
Locked out of the training ground
Briatore looking down at us as peasants
Gregory sacked
Di canio sacked
Ticket Prices going up
More sackings
Paul hart
Sacking warnock
Mark Hughes
Players signed who didn’t want to be here but wanted the money
Kenny for rob green
Ceaser for rob green
No new training ground
Money wasted
FFP fines
Relegations
Phil beard
Harry Redknapp
Holloway sacked again
P1ssing away cup games year after year
Steve mclaren
Selling smithies & Freeman for peanuts

Yeah we are right drama queens I don’t what we are all moaning about

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

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When did we become so nasty? on 15:30 - Jan 26 with 1657 viewsLongsufferingR

......and one of the main culprits immediately misses the point of the op completely.
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When did we become so nasty? on 15:43 - Jan 26 with 1620 viewspaulparker

When did we become so nasty? on 15:30 - Jan 26 by LongsufferingR

......and one of the main culprits immediately misses the point of the op completely.


Oh please tell mr super fan

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

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When did we become so nasty? on 16:05 - Jan 26 with 1549 viewsPunteR

When did we become so nasty? on 15:30 - Jan 26 by LongsufferingR

......and one of the main culprits immediately misses the point of the op completely.


Relentless suffering.

Occasional providers of half decent House music.

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When did we become so nasty? on 16:21 - Jan 26 with 1491 viewsstevec

When did we become so nasty? on 13:18 - Jan 26 by BazzaInTheLoft

I think we have all become more nasty and unhappy in general, because of a litany of problems in the world and the anonymous nature of an football Internet forum has added to it’s usefulness as a weird sort of release mechanism. It’s no coincidence that the most negative about QPR are usually the same ones who are most negative about the world in general. I know I lay the politics on a bit thick but there is a parallel between those that make snide remarks about society and those that make snide remarks about Lumley.

Part of that process is identifying a useful punchbag. It was nearly Scowen or Hugill, but Lumley has flown out the traps with a terrible bit of from to steal the title. Rest assured as soon as Lumley is out the picture it will be someone else, even if we were unbeaten at the top of the league. Remember when Warnock took us up? Some of us were still slating Rob Hulse and Matthew Connolly.

I’m a big believer that the silent majority just get on with it and the stadium experience rarely reflects the forum.

Be more like Brian McCarthy I say.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 13:28]


I’m as happy as a sand boy.

Brexit in a weeks time.
Tory majority of 80.

Life’s great, can’t understand what anyone’s unhappy about.
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When did we become so nasty? on 16:22 - Jan 26 with 1484 viewsNorthernr

It's not a QPR thing, it's a thing in general. The internet has removed the safety check of getting a bloody slap if you say something horrendous, now you can do it anonymously from behind a keyboard. It's almost all kids or early 20s, almost entirely male, and they seem to be in a race to the bottom for who can say the most horrendous thing to the other. It's not enough to say you don't think Lumley is any good, you have to call him a fcking useless cnt, you have to tell him to "fck off out of our club". Things like "fck off and die" and varying degrees of telling people to kill themselves is now just absolutely routine. Cnt is just a routine part of everyday language now, multiple times a day.

I found secondary schooling horrendous enough when I was there in the 90s but I dread to think what it must be like now. Society and politics is polarised and angry, and it's seeping into the discourse about every topic, and everyday behaviour, fuelled by Twitter and Facebook. I don't know where it stops TBH. Profoundly depressing.

This post has been edited by an administrator
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When did we become so nasty? on 16:32 - Jan 26 with 1431 viewsCiderwithRsie

When did we become so nasty? on 15:43 - Jan 26 by paulparker

Oh please tell mr super fan


The point, Paul, is not that we should all be blissed out or happy clappy or that criticism isn't allowed. As the OP says, the last 20 years have been a roller coaster and there have been both inspirational and appalling figures at the club. As he also says, it was always like that.

But none of that means we need to express it by getting at people.

The key phrase for us oldies is
I remember the abuse Mick Leach used to take.
... which in itself ought to be enough to make anyone who knows stop and think a bit.

As the Leach case shows, being unthinkingly vile isn't new, it's just that the modern world allows us all to do it so much more easily. And decent, talented blokes like Mick Leach can get hurt, and hurt much worse than anyone can tell from outside, and it can hit them years after.

We've all shouted stuff from the terraces (oops, showing my age) in the heat of the moment we'd regret. Fair enough. The keyboard actually gives you time to stop and think a bit, maybe delete or edit a post you regret. But how many of us do that? With all due respect, did you really need the last three words of that post?

Don't stop being passionate about he club, don't stop calling out screw-ups, but can we all just think a bit about what we say about other human beings - not about what they do, which is fair game, but about who and what they are.

EDIT now I think about it, I suppose Dave Clement's story is even more to the point.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 16:53]
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When did we become so nasty? on 16:41 - Jan 26 with 1394 viewsCiderwithRsie

When did we become so nasty? on 16:22 - Jan 26 by Northernr

It's not a QPR thing, it's a thing in general. The internet has removed the safety check of getting a bloody slap if you say something horrendous, now you can do it anonymously from behind a keyboard. It's almost all kids or early 20s, almost entirely male, and they seem to be in a race to the bottom for who can say the most horrendous thing to the other. It's not enough to say you don't think Lumley is any good, you have to call him a fcking useless cnt, you have to tell him to "fck off out of our club". Things like "fck off and die" and varying degrees of telling people to kill themselves is now just absolutely routine. Cnt is just a routine part of everyday language now, multiple times a day.

I found secondary schooling horrendous enough when I was there in the 90s but I dread to think what it must be like now. Society and politics is polarised and angry, and it's seeping into the discourse about every topic, and everyday behaviour, fuelled by Twitter and Facebook. I don't know where it stops TBH. Profoundly depressing.

This post has been edited by an administrator


The internet has removed the safety check of getting a bloody slap if you say something horrendous,

On Danny Baker's Desert Island Discs episode he makes the point that in his dad's working class culture if someone slagged off your work you decked him, so people didn't do it, but in the media world being snarky about people is fine and you can make a living out of it. The snarkers generally have less talent than the snarkees who are at least putting their stuff out there and you can take it or leave it.

Unfortunately the internet means we're all in the bloody media world now.
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When did we become so nasty? on 16:45 - Jan 26 with 1383 viewspaulparker

When did we become so nasty? on 16:32 - Jan 26 by CiderwithRsie

The point, Paul, is not that we should all be blissed out or happy clappy or that criticism isn't allowed. As the OP says, the last 20 years have been a roller coaster and there have been both inspirational and appalling figures at the club. As he also says, it was always like that.

But none of that means we need to express it by getting at people.

The key phrase for us oldies is
I remember the abuse Mick Leach used to take.
... which in itself ought to be enough to make anyone who knows stop and think a bit.

As the Leach case shows, being unthinkingly vile isn't new, it's just that the modern world allows us all to do it so much more easily. And decent, talented blokes like Mick Leach can get hurt, and hurt much worse than anyone can tell from outside, and it can hit them years after.

We've all shouted stuff from the terraces (oops, showing my age) in the heat of the moment we'd regret. Fair enough. The keyboard actually gives you time to stop and think a bit, maybe delete or edit a post you regret. But how many of us do that? With all due respect, did you really need the last three words of that post?

Don't stop being passionate about he club, don't stop calling out screw-ups, but can we all just think a bit about what we say about other human beings - not about what they do, which is fair game, but about who and what they are.

EDIT now I think about it, I suppose Dave Clement's story is even more to the point.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 16:53]


I don’t think fans on this message board go OTT
When you watch a game you say things without thinking like
FFS Lumley or you useless tvvat Kane , that’s been going on the terraces since day dot and you can’t and shouldn’t change it that’s part of football just like opinions on here
As for FB & Twitter I cant comment I dont use either really so I don’t know what’s said
QPR fans have been through enough the last 23 years and I can’t say we really are being run that sensibly still that’s why fans are P1ssed off look at Fulham & Brentford they are laughing at us and they are streets a head of where we are that’s also a big part of the frustration

And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles Brian Moore

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When did we become so nasty? on 16:45 - Jan 26 with 1382 viewsstevec

When did we become so nasty? on 16:32 - Jan 26 by CiderwithRsie

The point, Paul, is not that we should all be blissed out or happy clappy or that criticism isn't allowed. As the OP says, the last 20 years have been a roller coaster and there have been both inspirational and appalling figures at the club. As he also says, it was always like that.

But none of that means we need to express it by getting at people.

The key phrase for us oldies is
I remember the abuse Mick Leach used to take.
... which in itself ought to be enough to make anyone who knows stop and think a bit.

As the Leach case shows, being unthinkingly vile isn't new, it's just that the modern world allows us all to do it so much more easily. And decent, talented blokes like Mick Leach can get hurt, and hurt much worse than anyone can tell from outside, and it can hit them years after.

We've all shouted stuff from the terraces (oops, showing my age) in the heat of the moment we'd regret. Fair enough. The keyboard actually gives you time to stop and think a bit, maybe delete or edit a post you regret. But how many of us do that? With all due respect, did you really need the last three words of that post?

Don't stop being passionate about he club, don't stop calling out screw-ups, but can we all just think a bit about what we say about other human beings - not about what they do, which is fair game, but about who and what they are.

EDIT now I think about it, I suppose Dave Clement's story is even more to the point.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 16:53]


The thing is, PP’s initial thread on here was perfectly reasonable, nothing nasty, factual and open to debate.

I don’t do twitter or any of the other social media, I understand a lot of that can be unreasonable but to compare that with what PP says is wrong.
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When did we become so nasty? on 16:54 - Jan 26 with 1362 viewsNorthernr

When did we become so nasty? on 16:45 - Jan 26 by paulparker

I don’t think fans on this message board go OTT
When you watch a game you say things without thinking like
FFS Lumley or you useless tvvat Kane , that’s been going on the terraces since day dot and you can’t and shouldn’t change it that’s part of football just like opinions on here
As for FB & Twitter I cant comment I dont use either really so I don’t know what’s said
QPR fans have been through enough the last 23 years and I can’t say we really are being run that sensibly still that’s why fans are P1ssed off look at Fulham & Brentford they are laughing at us and they are streets a head of where we are that’s also a big part of the frustration


I mean I would say this wouldn't I but I think this message board is 98% of the time very good, certainly compared to some of the stuff I see on FB and Twitter. It's only the politics you lot can't discuss without getting stupid about it.
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When did we become so nasty? on 17:01 - Jan 26 with 1332 viewsCroydonCaptJack

When did we become so nasty? on 16:54 - Jan 26 by Northernr

I mean I would say this wouldn't I but I think this message board is 98% of the time very good, certainly compared to some of the stuff I see on FB and Twitter. It's only the politics you lot can't discuss without getting stupid about it.


That would be my observation as well (maybe 95%) with the 2-5% being QPR related disagreements.
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When did we become so nasty? on 17:02 - Jan 26 with 1329 viewsCiderwithRsie

When did we become so nasty? on 16:45 - Jan 26 by paulparker

I don’t think fans on this message board go OTT
When you watch a game you say things without thinking like
FFS Lumley or you useless tvvat Kane , that’s been going on the terraces since day dot and you can’t and shouldn’t change it that’s part of football just like opinions on here
As for FB & Twitter I cant comment I dont use either really so I don’t know what’s said
QPR fans have been through enough the last 23 years and I can’t say we really are being run that sensibly still that’s why fans are P1ssed off look at Fulham & Brentford they are laughing at us and they are streets a head of where we are that’s also a big part of the frustration


On the whole, I think this forum is pretty good and it's interesting that Clive is pretty light touch with the moderation.

But I don't think the OP is really calling out sort of debate we have here, it's more about the atmosphere on twitter and FB. Also, generally I think Clive is right that people get just that bit more worked up than they used to. We've all had our hearts sink when a certain player is on the team sheet again, but the trend now is to want them drummed out of the club.

"FFS Lumley" is pretty hard not to say tbh but "F**k off and die you useless c*nt" or "get out of my club" is different IMO.
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When did we become so nasty? on 17:10 - Jan 26 with 1306 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Sorry to hear some of the experiences on here. I've never used Twitter except to check minute-by-minutes for scores. I avoid it as many sane people have told me to, as I would if they advised me to avoid the pub down the road.

On the more general point of behaviour of this generation in the modern world, I find them to be just as decent as the previous generations. My Grandad used to disagree with his friends when they said the next generation down from them had "gone to the dogs"; he reckoned every generation was as decent as the one before it. I often think of that, and I tend to agree.

I grew up in the 70's and 80's in Ireland and England. I was surrounded by punk, heavy metal, fighting, corporal punishment, sexual abuse and mental abuse. It was fugging horrible. I was unhappy from the age of ten until well into my twenties, and I got off lightly compared to others.

Now, I coach Gaelic Football to young adults and you get to know them, their families, their woes and their ways. You spend a lot of time in their kitchens talking to their parents and to them about personal issues that affect them. There are few secrets in a squad. I find them to be a happy, polite, and content lot on the whole. They have their challenges, as we did. But when they leave social media behind, as most of them do, they are largely free of the kind of bullying and abuse we were subjected to. They treat each other well, they're not afraid to show their emotions, take the pi$$, have the craic and then to turn around and look after each other, and they're not ashamed to show brotherhood and, dare I say it, love.

Conclusion: Social media is anti-social. The OP has it right - it's destructive. And not reflective of the generation it was born into.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Poll: Player of the Year (so far)

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When did we become so nasty? on 17:28 - Jan 26 with 1245 viewsWrightUp5hit___

My original post was I suppose, at its core and as Clive noted, about the total polarization of views. No inbetweens, no shades of grey just poisonous absolutes.

Todd Kane is shit, not he is poor defending but going forward he does add to the team.

Or Warburton, fncking useless team selection, no I can see he was trying to rotate the squad but it didn't work.

The clickbait sites thrive on the evil tweets that people with no filter put out there, and create stories around them that just become amplified by other sites. A perfect shit swilling cycle.

Yes, as my op, we have always been a tough audience but the sheer malevolence of some of those anonymous folk out there is astonishing.
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When did we become so nasty? on 23:33 - Jan 26 with 970 viewsdublinr

When did we become so nasty? on 17:10 - Jan 26 by BrianMcCarthy

Sorry to hear some of the experiences on here. I've never used Twitter except to check minute-by-minutes for scores. I avoid it as many sane people have told me to, as I would if they advised me to avoid the pub down the road.

On the more general point of behaviour of this generation in the modern world, I find them to be just as decent as the previous generations. My Grandad used to disagree with his friends when they said the next generation down from them had "gone to the dogs"; he reckoned every generation was as decent as the one before it. I often think of that, and I tend to agree.

I grew up in the 70's and 80's in Ireland and England. I was surrounded by punk, heavy metal, fighting, corporal punishment, sexual abuse and mental abuse. It was fugging horrible. I was unhappy from the age of ten until well into my twenties, and I got off lightly compared to others.

Now, I coach Gaelic Football to young adults and you get to know them, their families, their woes and their ways. You spend a lot of time in their kitchens talking to their parents and to them about personal issues that affect them. There are few secrets in a squad. I find them to be a happy, polite, and content lot on the whole. They have their challenges, as we did. But when they leave social media behind, as most of them do, they are largely free of the kind of bullying and abuse we were subjected to. They treat each other well, they're not afraid to show their emotions, take the pi$$, have the craic and then to turn around and look after each other, and they're not ashamed to show brotherhood and, dare I say it, love.

Conclusion: Social media is anti-social. The OP has it right - it's destructive. And not reflective of the generation it was born into.


Nice post Brian.

I've been teaching college students for twenty five years, and I'm happy to report that they're no nastier than they ever were.

And though they might be spiteful or vicious on social media (I wouldn't know), these days face to face they're more considerate and careful not to hurt each other's feelings.

Like QPR, its not all gloom and doom. Well, not all the time.


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