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Football and Capitalism 18:27 - Jul 16 with 3098 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

I think I’ve been quite good recently so indulge me this.

Warning: Explicitly left wing content

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/c/permanent-peoples-game-changer
[Post edited 16 Jul 2020 18:29]
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Football and Capitalism on 19:04 - Jul 16 with 2437 viewsQPRSteve

Gave up reading it when I got to this:

The game’s cultural capital is something the writer David Goldblatt examines at length in The Game of Our Lives, arguing that it is “a social democratic game in a sea of neoliberalism.”
[Post edited 16 Jul 2020 19:05]
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Football and Capitalism on 19:09 - Jul 16 with 2425 viewsBucksRanger

Football and Capitalism on 19:04 - Jul 16 by QPRSteve

Gave up reading it when I got to this:

The game’s cultural capital is something the writer David Goldblatt examines at length in The Game of Our Lives, arguing that it is “a social democratic game in a sea of neoliberalism.”
[Post edited 16 Jul 2020 19:05]


Funny, that's the same spot I gave up too.
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Football and Capitalism on 19:22 - Jul 16 with 2401 viewsstevec

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Football and Capitalism on 19:38 - Jul 16 with 2343 viewsNov77

Always found it ironic that the most left wing areas of England, Manchester and Liverpool, are the ones who’ve embraced capitalism the most when it comes to their football teams.

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Football and Capitalism on 20:06 - Jul 16 with 2286 viewsPlanetHonneywood

Football and Capitalism on 19:38 - Jul 16 by Nov77

Always found it ironic that the most left wing areas of England, Manchester and Liverpool, are the ones who’ve embraced capitalism the most when it comes to their football teams.


No one has embraced unfettered capitalism better than us since the mid-90s, and we are anything but successful.

You’d have thought the 2008 credit crisis would have been averted if any of the city types had learned anything from our near collapse after Chris Wright...not that we did either to be fair.

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Football and Capitalism on 20:10 - Jul 16 with 2285 viewsslmrstid

I read the article all the way through...I think football (well I'd extend it to all professional sport really, but lets stick with football for now for simplicity) is in need of a radical shake up. A real, structural, earth-shatteringly radical shake up.

Which we all know will never happen.

But for my two cents, here's what should (and never will) happen, and I'll try not to waffle too much.

Firstly, no football club needs to be a profit making business. No-one who owns a football club does so because they plan to make money from it, hardly anyone does. All football club owners have their real money making businesses elsewhere and own sports clubs because of the prestige/ego boosts it gives them that their real business can't.

That being said, they obviously cannot be huge loss making businesses, because eventually cash runs out, and invariably the owner gets off scot free whilst the club, fans and community are left to pick up the pieces. (Genuine question that someone might know - is anyone ever aware of a football club bankruptcy that has also ruined the owner in the process?)

They should, in my view, in the UK at least as I can't comment on overseas company procedures, all be companies limited by guarantee. That way they are pure not-for-profit organisations, they can't pay dividends for the few that do make money so funds can be ring-fenced for the club. It doesn't stop it getting into huge debts mind...

Revenues should be more evenly distributed. Takes two to make a football game ultimately. So whilst cup gate receipts are split evenly between the participants (is still 45:45 to the clubs, and 10% to the FA?), so should league gates be split more evenly like they used to be. This stops the haves accumulating more haves, whilst the have-nots continue to have not very much. It would also mean someone like Wycome coming into the Championship next year get their own fiscal benefit from gate receipts for games away at big clubs in the league. This should, in the long run, lead to divisions being more equal, and allow smaller clubs the chance to compete financially with bigger clubs. What clubs make off their own backs in terms of merchandising etc is up to them.

TV money, that old adage, should be split more evenly through the leagues too. At least in the UK we dont have the situation (yet??) where the big clubs in the top flight draw in more TV money than the smaller clubs in the top flight, rendering the whole thing more uneven.

Salary caps should be in existence, whether thats a "hard" cap (eg £20 million p/a say as a random number) or a "soft" cap (eg 65% of expected revenues) - they both have pros and cons. This in theory simply protects clubs from spending unsustainable amounts of money on players, that they won't be able to keep up once owners decide to pull the plug on funding.

Agents - ah that old chestnut. I can understand why players use them, I can understand why clubs do, but they should be a lot more regulated than they appear to be, and agents representing both club and player in a transaction should be a huge no-no.

Transfer fees - I'd make an argument that these should be banned, and that players can't be sold out of contract, or they can, but only be traded with other players from other clubs, much like they are in American sports (though I accept here I stand to be corrected if money changes hands between clubs too as well as players). So West Ham want Eze? Sure, but we'll take 3/4 (good!) players off your hands in exchange.

EPPP - all that rubbish should be done away with. There should be strict restrictions on where clubs can scout for their youth players so big clubs can't hoover up others territory.

Youth Player salaries - there should be restrictions on what players can earn by the time they hit certain ages/first team appearances. The idea that a 19 year old at Man United with zero professional appearances to his name can earn £10k - £15k per week when if he had to play first team football he'd be barely League 2 level is crazy. I wouldn't begrudge it if they'd played 50 first team games for Man Utd at that age (so salaries could perhaps be linked to first team appearnaces) - but there is a good argument to say being on that money, at that age, without anything to show for it, does nothing good on a personal level for that player in the long term.

Loans - should be far more relaxed to how they were 15-20+ years ago so clubs can blood young players from bigger clubs much more effectively (eg have them for a month at a time or something) - we've seen ourselves how players from "big" clubs who are only used to academy football struggle so much in proper competitive mens football.

B Teams - Ah, now for the really radical bit. In essence, I'm not actually that much against clubs fielding reserve teams in the pyramid if they want to, it would be a better way to blood young players than U23 football if clubs have players they can't/won't loan out. Where I won't accept it though, is them being parachuted into the Football League/Conference. Man United want a B team? Sure, but go into the North West Counties league (or whatever the equivalent league is) and work your way up past all the non-league teams in the process, and earn your place in the pyramid. And if you don't want your young academy boys playing against Brigg Town and Skelmersdale United or whoever first to get there, well tough, no B team then.

I'm sure there's more I could think of but I'll leave it there. I'm sure absolutely none of it will ever actually happen (well I could see the B team bit sadly, but not in the way I'd be in approval of!) but there's a dream right?

Perhaps some of it folk agree with, and some they won't, but there's a discussion for you
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Football and Capitalism on 20:21 - Jul 16 with 2258 viewsdannyblue

I read the article. It didn’t really say anything.

On wage caps though there’s a pretty clear and important point to be made.

Football has the ability to pull in obscene amounts of money. That money should go to the people providing the entertainment that pulls in the money, ie the players. If you put any kind of wage cap in place the money that no longer went to the players would instead go to the owners and the financiers and the speculators who none of the fans (the ultimate source of value from their hard earned cash and, more, from their eyeballs for ads) could give two shitz about.

The only way a wage cap would be beneficial would be if the clubs were all community owned, in which case that excess no longer going to the players would go to a community entity.
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Football and Capitalism on 20:36 - Jul 16 with 2227 viewsNov77

Football and Capitalism on 20:06 - Jul 16 by PlanetHonneywood

No one has embraced unfettered capitalism better than us since the mid-90s, and we are anything but successful.

You’d have thought the 2008 credit crisis would have been averted if any of the city types had learned anything from our near collapse after Chris Wright...not that we did either to be fair.


'No one has embraced unfettered capitalism better than us since the mid-90s'

you really think we're the worst?

doubt if we're anywhere near the top twenty.

Brighton for example's net spend over just the last 5 years has been over £200million.

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Football and Capitalism on 07:11 - Jul 17 with 2023 viewsJuzzie

Football and Capitalism on 20:21 - Jul 16 by dannyblue

I read the article. It didn’t really say anything.

On wage caps though there’s a pretty clear and important point to be made.

Football has the ability to pull in obscene amounts of money. That money should go to the people providing the entertainment that pulls in the money, ie the players. If you put any kind of wage cap in place the money that no longer went to the players would instead go to the owners and the financiers and the speculators who none of the fans (the ultimate source of value from their hard earned cash and, more, from their eyeballs for ads) could give two shitz about.

The only way a wage cap would be beneficial would be if the clubs were all community owned, in which case that excess no longer going to the players would go to a community entity.


A wage cap could shouldn’t necessarily mean the money saved goes into the pockets of the owners etc as you say. If so then we, the punters, don’t gain either as we’re still shelling out no matter where it goes.

The money saved by virtue of a wage cap can go towards;

Reducing obscene ticket prices
Reducing obscene merchandise prices
Reducing obscene catering prices
Reducing obscene tv subscription prices


If the players don’t like it and “go abroad”, then good. They can fook off for all I care.

[Post edited 17 Jul 2020 8:08]
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Football and Capitalism on 07:43 - Jul 17 with 1993 viewsPlanetHonneywood

Football and Capitalism on 20:36 - Jul 16 by Nov77

'No one has embraced unfettered capitalism better than us since the mid-90s'

you really think we're the worst?

doubt if we're anywhere near the top twenty.

Brighton for example's net spend over just the last 5 years has been over £200million.


That’s their net spend in the last five years?

Surely that would be fantastic if it was. Prem TV income alone must be that and more.

We however, spent way beyond our means and ended up to £240-50m (if memory serves) in the plop. Throw in spent income, we must have gone through half a billion in our unfettered period.

As BHA have been in the Prem for a few years now, by the figures you’ve quoted they don’t seem to be so ‘unfettered’ as opposed to ‘balanced’.

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Football and Capitalism on 07:59 - Jul 17 with 1972 viewsGloucs_R

Love football
Love Capitalism

Thread closed.

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Football and Capitalism on 08:17 - Jul 17 with 1939 viewsstevec

Football and Capitalism on 07:59 - Jul 17 by Gloucs_R

Love football
Love Capitalism

Thread closed.


Agree totally.

One final question I have to ask, apologies GloucR I should have left it there, the vibe I’m getting is our resident Lefties seem less than keen for the very thing that’ll save the game at EFL level, that is, a wage cap.

Got to ask you Baz, are you in favour?

All this rubbish about community run clubs is just going round the bush to complicate what is otherwise a simple solution. Tell me, for instance, how QPR, if community run, could afford to build our much needed new stadium. Wealthy owners will still be required for major infrastructure, but a wage cap would mean the day to day running of a football club becomes viable without the shenanigans going on at the likes of Wigan, Hull and numerous other clubs who are essentially unviable at present.
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Football and Capitalism on 08:54 - Jul 17 with 1922 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Football and Capitalism on 08:17 - Jul 17 by stevec

Agree totally.

One final question I have to ask, apologies GloucR I should have left it there, the vibe I’m getting is our resident Lefties seem less than keen for the very thing that’ll save the game at EFL level, that is, a wage cap.

Got to ask you Baz, are you in favour?

All this rubbish about community run clubs is just going round the bush to complicate what is otherwise a simple solution. Tell me, for instance, how QPR, if community run, could afford to build our much needed new stadium. Wealthy owners will still be required for major infrastructure, but a wage cap would mean the day to day running of a football club becomes viable without the shenanigans going on at the likes of Wigan, Hull and numerous other clubs who are essentially unviable at present.


Skipping past your snideness about ‘Lefties’, no I don’t think salary caps are necessary, unless they are part of a wider, stronger, and fairer FFP process that is tailored to each individual club. No good having the same salary cap for Macclesfield and Man City for example.

‘How will a community run club afford a new stadium’

Same way AFC Wimbledon and Barcelona have built or developed theirs. Cooperation with the council and other not for profit organisations; schemes that benefit the community as a whole and not just the football club add as incentive for tax payers to become invested in the football club. In most cases owners don’t use their own money anyway. Do you remember the ABC loan?
[Post edited 17 Jul 2020 9:02]
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Football and Capitalism on 09:07 - Jul 17 with 1892 viewsBrianMcCarthy

A problem I see with a wage cap in England is that it will inflate transfer fees (as opposed to the U.S. where players are traded, not bought). Rich owners will still find a way to gain an advantage over others so they will spend more on transfers, so transfer prices will be driven up, small clubs will be frozen out regardless and clubs will still be put in financial peril.

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Football and Capitalism on 09:09 - Jul 17 with 1889 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Football and Capitalism on 08:17 - Jul 17 by stevec

Agree totally.

One final question I have to ask, apologies GloucR I should have left it there, the vibe I’m getting is our resident Lefties seem less than keen for the very thing that’ll save the game at EFL level, that is, a wage cap.

Got to ask you Baz, are you in favour?

All this rubbish about community run clubs is just going round the bush to complicate what is otherwise a simple solution. Tell me, for instance, how QPR, if community run, could afford to build our much needed new stadium. Wealthy owners will still be required for major infrastructure, but a wage cap would mean the day to day running of a football club becomes viable without the shenanigans going on at the likes of Wigan, Hull and numerous other clubs who are essentially unviable at present.


Agree with Bazza.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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Football and Capitalism on 09:30 - Jul 17 with 1864 viewsstevec

Football and Capitalism on 08:54 - Jul 17 by BazzaInTheLoft

Skipping past your snideness about ‘Lefties’, no I don’t think salary caps are necessary, unless they are part of a wider, stronger, and fairer FFP process that is tailored to each individual club. No good having the same salary cap for Macclesfield and Man City for example.

‘How will a community run club afford a new stadium’

Same way AFC Wimbledon and Barcelona have built or developed theirs. Cooperation with the council and other not for profit organisations; schemes that benefit the community as a whole and not just the football club add as incentive for tax payers to become invested in the football club. In most cases owners don’t use their own money anyway. Do you remember the ABC loan?
[Post edited 17 Jul 2020 9:02]


Your first paragraph is remarkable.

What you’re effectively supporting is Capitalism over Socialism, the rich having power over the poor. Stunning and I thought I was the Capitalist.

Anyway, looks like the bigger Championship clubs are already fighting the wage cap, so the same old circus will carry on.
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Football and Capitalism on 09:39 - Jul 17 with 1854 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Football and Capitalism on 09:30 - Jul 17 by stevec

Your first paragraph is remarkable.

What you’re effectively supporting is Capitalism over Socialism, the rich having power over the poor. Stunning and I thought I was the Capitalist.

Anyway, looks like the bigger Championship clubs are already fighting the wage cap, so the same old circus will carry on.


You are hard man to take seriously Steve.
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Football and Capitalism on 09:59 - Jul 17 with 1826 viewsstevec

Football and Capitalism on 09:39 - Jul 17 by BazzaInTheLoft

You are hard man to take seriously Steve.


You’re not the first person to say that but it don’t make me wrong.

All I can say is, next time you moan about the differential between high earners and those on minimum wage, in any industry, think about your stance on this issue first.
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Football and Capitalism on 10:55 - Jul 17 with 1798 viewsClive_Anderson

I think a wage cap could work as a % of turnover, capped at 50% higher than the average turnover of clubs in that division for the last 3 years.

So Man City could still spend more than average team, but only 50% more, so the competition is a bit more even.

Other advantages include clubs not getting into huge amounts of debt on ever spiralling wage costs and more money available for infrastructure and youth development.

If transfer fees increase as a result then that is good too, as more money goes to the smaller clubs that are selling to the top clubs and it means that their turnover increases so they can spend more on wages in future to be more competitive.

Also the big clubs can't just sign everyone anyway as they could only have a few high earners to stay under the wage cap.

I have a hard time seeing owners as evil capitalists raking in money at the expense of the poor players. The owners seem to lose money hand over fist and the players are some of the highest paid people in the world.
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Football and Capitalism on 11:00 - Jul 17 with 1783 views2Thomas2Bowles


When willl this CV nightmare end
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Football and Capitalism on 11:09 - Jul 17 with 1774 viewsBazzaInTheLoft

Football and Capitalism on 10:55 - Jul 17 by Clive_Anderson

I think a wage cap could work as a % of turnover, capped at 50% higher than the average turnover of clubs in that division for the last 3 years.

So Man City could still spend more than average team, but only 50% more, so the competition is a bit more even.

Other advantages include clubs not getting into huge amounts of debt on ever spiralling wage costs and more money available for infrastructure and youth development.

If transfer fees increase as a result then that is good too, as more money goes to the smaller clubs that are selling to the top clubs and it means that their turnover increases so they can spend more on wages in future to be more competitive.

Also the big clubs can't just sign everyone anyway as they could only have a few high earners to stay under the wage cap.

I have a hard time seeing owners as evil capitalists raking in money at the expense of the poor players. The owners seem to lose money hand over fist and the players are some of the highest paid people in the world.


Most campaigners agree that 40% is the right number, but otherwise I agree with your first paragraph.
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Football and Capitalism on 11:31 - Jul 17 with 1745 viewsClive_Anderson

40% sounds fine to me.

The problem is that one of the reasons the Premier League is the most marketable is because it spends the most money on transfer fees and wages.

Long term a more even league would be more interesting and popular, but it would probably take a hit in the short term, so I can't see the authorities agreeing to it sadly.
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Football and Capitalism on 16:07 - Jul 23 with 1589 viewsrsonist

Good piece on short termism at the Clasico clubs with interesting wider ramifications particularly at a time where Charlton and Wigan have seen the worst injustices of a laissez faire free market system. I've read similar suggestions that RB Leipzig gained a competitive advantage in Germany not simply through cash but by neutering the heretofore sacrosanct 50+1 club membership model.

https://theathletic.co.uk/1941688/2020/07/23/real-madrid-barcelona-scouting-one-

One source explains: “The last year of a presidential cycle is always Shakespearian. [...] This context is important as it underlines the challenges of developing a long-term strategy when an everyday crisis has gripped a club. [...] They don’t appear to do as much as they could. It is just the culture. They are not as mature in the field of data science. There are reasons. Clubs in Spain are socially owned so they have to respond to shareholders. This means the fans. Clubs such as Inter Milan, for example, can be more autocratic and less answerable to the whims of a fanbase. The presidential elections are the issue and make it very hard to breathe and develop a sustainable business model.”
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Football and Capitalism on 17:32 - Jul 23 with 1513 viewsMatch82

Football and Capitalism on 20:21 - Jul 16 by dannyblue

I read the article. It didn’t really say anything.

On wage caps though there’s a pretty clear and important point to be made.

Football has the ability to pull in obscene amounts of money. That money should go to the people providing the entertainment that pulls in the money, ie the players. If you put any kind of wage cap in place the money that no longer went to the players would instead go to the owners and the financiers and the speculators who none of the fans (the ultimate source of value from their hard earned cash and, more, from their eyeballs for ads) could give two shitz about.

The only way a wage cap would be beneficial would be if the clubs were all community owned, in which case that excess no longer going to the players would go to a community entity.


Basketball has an interesting system where teams that go over a certain amount are "taxed" (up to 3x the amount I think) and that money is split by teams who stay under the cap.

Could this work in England?

Let's say you set a cap of 1m a week, 40k a week × 25 players, just for simple numbers.

A team which spends 2m on wages is welcome to do so, but has to put an ADDITIONAL 3m in a central fund. Spend 4m on wages you have to put an extra 9m in.

At the end of that year that central fund is split:
45% to community based projects
45% split between clubs that stay under that line
10% to be split between teams in division below

Creates a huge incentive to stay under the cap for owners, balances the gap to division below, gives back to community. And still allows the people that really want to throw money at it to do so, but this time they are directly benefiting their local community by doing so.

What's not to like?
[Post edited 23 Jul 2020 17:44]
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Football and Capitalism on 17:36 - Jul 23 with 1503 viewsBrianMcCarthy

Football and Capitalism on 17:32 - Jul 23 by Match82

Basketball has an interesting system where teams that go over a certain amount are "taxed" (up to 3x the amount I think) and that money is split by teams who stay under the cap.

Could this work in England?

Let's say you set a cap of 1m a week, 40k a week × 25 players, just for simple numbers.

A team which spends 2m on wages is welcome to do so, but has to put an ADDITIONAL 3m in a central fund. Spend 4m on wages you have to put an extra 9m in.

At the end of that year that central fund is split:
45% to community based projects
45% split between clubs that stay under that line
10% to be split between teams in division below

Creates a huge incentive to stay under the cap for owners, balances the gap to division below, gives back to community. And still allows the people that really want to throw money at it to do so, but this time they are directly benefiting their local community by doing so.

What's not to like?
[Post edited 23 Jul 2020 17:44]


Baseball has a similar scheme. I think it's brilliant that America of all places has the most socialist approach to sports. Can't see it being brought in in Europe, too late for that now.

"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
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