| Anton Ferdinand Documentary 20:40 - Sep 10 with 21957 views | Noelmc |
This could be interesting.
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 00:20 - Dec 1 with 2324 views | Juzzie |
In English law ‘not guilty’ doesn’t mean the person didn’t do it, just that it could not be proved beyond all doubt.
Terry has continued to peddle the “see, I didn’t do it, I was found not guilty. I’ve put it behind me, nothing more to say” mantra to this day.
I was on jury service some 15+ years ago and we too had to give a verdict of not guilty because it could not be proved beyond all doubt. Did they do it? I still don’t know but it could not be 100% proven so we had to give that verdict. It didn’t feel comfortable to any of us but there were no other options by law.
We should adopt the Scottish system which has three verdicts;
- Guilty: They did do it
- Not guilty: They didn’t do it
- Not proven: High probability they did do it but could not be proven beyond all doubt. Although the accused is acquitted, there should still remain the element of possibility they did it attached to that person(s).
Had this system been in place, I’m sure Terry would have got Not Proven. It’s clear he’s not ‘Not Guilty’ in the sense he didn’t do it but, as said, that’s what he’ll forever maintain.
As for Anton, I just get the feeling all he wanted was for Terry to get in touch at the time (clearly didn’t try hard enough) and say sorry. That’s all, just say sorry. It was wrong, horribly wrong, what Terry said but I think if he had shown genuine remorse things would have been better for Anton but the fact Terry couldn’t, or wouldn’t, says it all. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 01:11 - Dec 1 with 2250 views | aston_hoop |
A tough watch, makes me angry all over again that ultimately Terry will go into his job at Villa in the morning with the media kissing his ring. Recommend not bothering reading anything on Twitter tonight, fck. |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 01:20 - Dec 1 with 2240 views | Trom |
Watched this and started reading the thread. Was just about to post exactly what you posted! The belief that a criminal trial would deliver a conviction was low. I seem to remember at the time a big issue was made of the player moving across the camera angle for a few seconds meaning you lost view of Terry's mouth. In a civil court and below, it's a matter of probability, not proof. I think he was badly legally advised.
The way to nail him was to make it a matter for the court of public opinion. But it's all good to say he should have spoken out at the time, but we're looking at it from a 2020 perspective where BLM means it's taken, rightly, more seriously.
You would also think the club is better at supporting a player in that situation 9 years on (I think we walked off in an under 23s overseas game, correct me if I'm wrong). |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 07:14 - Dec 1 with 2082 views | Paddyhoops |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 23:06 - Nov 30 by daveB |
nothing will come of it, Teflon Terry will continue to work in football It will be brushed under the carpet like so many other incidents.
Well done to Anton Ferdinand for speaking out and making this documentary |
I fear your right. I'm up at that crack of dawn and usually listen to 5 live and normally there's follow up on a news breaking documentary the following morning. There's been nothing so far or anything in the newspapers for that matter.
Terry was found not guilty In a court of law. On lasts nights evidence, it's quiet clear that was a poor decision.
I'm always one for giving people a second chance however Terry made no attempt at an apology which is incredibly disappointing.
He will be in football for a long time yet and the saddest thing is that very few pros have condemned what he did or offered Ferdinand any support. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 08:05 - Dec 1 with 1970 views | Northernr |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 22:08 - Nov 30 by paulparker |
If a fan had said what Terry had said in a ground then we would be banned for life & probably let go from our jobs
Terry got a 4 game ban ! How does that work ? being the England captain is like the equivalent of a queens pardon it seems
The whole Terry family are scum bags , I think Ferdinand has issues speaking out imo and has difficulty in articulating his point hence the fa giving him a hard time during the interviews which didn’t help him |
Absolutely this.
An England international was found by the FA to have called another player a "fcking black cnt" on the pitch during a game, in the UK, in 2011, and got a FOUR game ban. And we have the nerve to pretend we're nations such as Bulgaria when our players are racially abused out there. Four matches. Four. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 08:07 - Dec 1 with 1952 views | stevec |
I don’t do Twitter, what’s Gary Lineker had to say about this, he’s usually pretty vocal about everything.
And then there’s Sky, probably calling us out in various ways still, for not taking the knee, reckon they might have something to say about JT. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 08:43 - Dec 1 with 1873 views | MedwayR |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 08:07 - Dec 1 by stevec |
I don’t do Twitter, what’s Gary Lineker had to say about this, he’s usually pretty vocal about everything.
And then there’s Sky, probably calling us out in various ways still, for not taking the knee, reckon they might have something to say about JT. |
There won't be any coverage of it because there's no shocking revelations in the documentary.
As good as the documentary was all it showed was that John Terry is a racist coward - well we all knew that so nothing new there - and that Anton Ferdinand was badly let down and it had an impact on him and his career, which we knew a bit of although not the extent and the real story is the impact it had on him, which isn't going to get the attention or sympathy of many because he'll just be seen as a millionaire footballer, it's only words etc.
Plus of course it's a subject many people don't want the discomfort of facing. |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:13 - Dec 1 with 1762 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 01:20 - Dec 1 by Trom |
Watched this and started reading the thread. Was just about to post exactly what you posted! The belief that a criminal trial would deliver a conviction was low. I seem to remember at the time a big issue was made of the player moving across the camera angle for a few seconds meaning you lost view of Terry's mouth. In a civil court and below, it's a matter of probability, not proof. I think he was badly legally advised.
The way to nail him was to make it a matter for the court of public opinion. But it's all good to say he should have spoken out at the time, but we're looking at it from a 2020 perspective where BLM means it's taken, rightly, more seriously.
You would also think the club is better at supporting a player in that situation 9 years on (I think we walked off in an under 23s overseas game, correct me if I'm wrong). |
"You would also think the club is better at supporting a player in that situation 9 years on (I think we walked off in an under 23s overseas game, correct me if I'm wrong)."
I found this to be another interesting aspect of the programme - no reaction from either of the teams involved.
No statement from Chelsea as to how they treated the incident where they Captain was suspended for racial abuse and no tackling of their huge catalogue of racist incidents.
And no statement from Rangers either. In our case, there is no-one in a position of power at the club who was there in 2011, but it was strange that the programme didn't seek a statement anyway which would have allowed us to highlight how we are the polar opposite of Chelsea when it comes to inclusion and equality.
Maybe it was just a question of editing as they only had an hour to tell what was really a story of Ferdinand's personal journey but if nothing else I would have thought that Anton having a cousin now in a position of power at Rangers was an interesting fact. |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:21 - Dec 1 with 1734 views | Rangers67 |
Surely there must be some way we on here to send a message of support to Anton even now. Maybe expressing our ongoing support for him and our recognition of his courage in making this programme. I would like the club to show some kind of support also, maybe when things eventually get back to normal Anton is the first player called back to get a forever R,s presentation. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:32 - Dec 1 with 1711 views | joe90 |
My take away.
1: The FA doesn't want to deal with these issues.
2: Toxic culture is embedded in the game. The back and forth between Anton and Terry perfectly exemplifies that.
3: I don't feel sorry for Anton because of what Terry said, I feel he was hung out to dry by the media, FA, Kick It Out and the Courts. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:35 - Dec 1 with 1698 views | nix |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:13 - Dec 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
"You would also think the club is better at supporting a player in that situation 9 years on (I think we walked off in an under 23s overseas game, correct me if I'm wrong)."
I found this to be another interesting aspect of the programme - no reaction from either of the teams involved.
No statement from Chelsea as to how they treated the incident where they Captain was suspended for racial abuse and no tackling of their huge catalogue of racist incidents.
And no statement from Rangers either. In our case, there is no-one in a position of power at the club who was there in 2011, but it was strange that the programme didn't seek a statement anyway which would have allowed us to highlight how we are the polar opposite of Chelsea when it comes to inclusion and equality.
Maybe it was just a question of editing as they only had an hour to tell what was really a story of Ferdinand's personal journey but if nothing else I would have thought that Anton having a cousin now in a position of power at Rangers was an interesting fact. |
Les has said several times that he's been wheeled out for years as the spokesperson on racial issues, and yet it hasn't changed what really goes on. So we get talked about by Sky for not bending the knee, having done it for months, yet we actually are one of the few teams with black coaches and senior officials. Meanwhile Sky always talks about John Terry as some kind of hero, despite his unsavoury record with regard to Anton and other things, like parking in the disabled bay because he can etc. Meanwhile I doubt whether Chelsea want to defend their record with regard to racist employees and incidents!
I'd love to see Anton coming back for Forever Rs when we're finally back in the ground. I'm sure he'd get a good reception and I hope that would be healing for him. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:39 - Dec 1 with 1685 views | joe90 |
Why would we bring him back for the 'forever r's? If he hadn't been abused by Terry we'd never talk about him! I don't think we'll be bringing back many players from that period. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:54 - Dec 1 with 1630 views | Rangers67 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:39 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
Why would we bring him back for the 'forever r's? If he hadn't been abused by Terry we'd never talk about him! I don't think we'll be bringing back many players from that period. |
Well why not ?, Good reasons to bring him back to show our support for what he has been through as a person, also when he was here he always gave 100% as far as I can remember, plus it also sends a signal to the outside world ( if they are watching ) about what sort of club we are etc etc , I could go on. I don,t think the players level of ability is normally a big deciding factor in the decision to enroll them or not, I may be wrong. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:58 - Dec 1 with 1615 views | Maggsinho |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:39 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
Why would we bring him back for the 'forever r's? If he hadn't been abused by Terry we'd never talk about him! I don't think we'll be bringing back many players from that period. |
It's not a hall of fame though - the only qualification is you have to have played for us in the past. |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:10 - Dec 1 with 1570 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:35 - Dec 1 by nix |
Les has said several times that he's been wheeled out for years as the spokesperson on racial issues, and yet it hasn't changed what really goes on. So we get talked about by Sky for not bending the knee, having done it for months, yet we actually are one of the few teams with black coaches and senior officials. Meanwhile Sky always talks about John Terry as some kind of hero, despite his unsavoury record with regard to Anton and other things, like parking in the disabled bay because he can etc. Meanwhile I doubt whether Chelsea want to defend their record with regard to racist employees and incidents!
I'd love to see Anton coming back for Forever Rs when we're finally back in the ground. I'm sure he'd get a good reception and I hope that would be healing for him. |
That's all very true, Nix, and fair comment.
I was just slightly surprised that the programme producers didn't push for comments regardless. | |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:13 - Dec 1 with 1560 views | nix |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:10 - Dec 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
That's all very true, Nix, and fair comment.
I was just slightly surprised that the programme producers didn't push for comments regardless. |
Yes it would have been interesting. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:18 - Dec 1 with 1546 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:39 - Dec 1 by joe90 |
Why would we bring him back for the 'forever r's? If he hadn't been abused by Terry we'd never talk about him! I don't think we'll be bringing back many players from that period. |
Well, maybe we would. Maybe had that not had such a big impact on him he would have gone on to have a better career with us.
But I'm beyond arguing about Forever Rs now. If some fans still don't get it, they never will.
I agree with everything said on here about Terry, but that's nothing new and for me that wasn't the point of the programme. We shouldn't be coming out of this talking about Terry. It's about the impact racism has on people, not just footballers, but people. And this is not 'football's' problem solely. It is society. Racism doesn't exist just on terraces or on social media. It is everywhere and if anything social media is proving it is more widespread than we realised 10 or 15 years ago. If anything, it has seemed to become more acceptable than it was then.
The point of the programme for me was about how a victim of racial abuse was made to feel like he was in the wrong, that he had to prove something. Even on here, one poster criticised him for not speaking out. I find that flabbergasting. How on earth can we know what it was like to be Anton Ferdinand during that time? Or even now? This was the story last night - not Terry's character, but Anton's story, the long term effects on his life on both him and his family. Even without 'speaking out' at the time he got awful abuse for 'playing the race card' at the time. Easy to be brave when it's not you in the firing line. |  |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:20 - Dec 1 with 1536 views | 18StoneOfHoop |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:35 - Dec 1 by nix |
Les has said several times that he's been wheeled out for years as the spokesperson on racial issues, and yet it hasn't changed what really goes on. So we get talked about by Sky for not bending the knee, having done it for months, yet we actually are one of the few teams with black coaches and senior officials. Meanwhile Sky always talks about John Terry as some kind of hero, despite his unsavoury record with regard to Anton and other things, like parking in the disabled bay because he can etc. Meanwhile I doubt whether Chelsea want to defend their record with regard to racist employees and incidents!
I'd love to see Anton coming back for Forever Rs when we're finally back in the ground. I'm sure he'd get a good reception and I hope that would be healing for him. |
nix you write:
"Meanwhile I doubt whether Chelsea want to defend their record with regard to racist employees and incidents!"
Not sure about this, in the fans not the management's case.(Bruce Buck trying to be the Millwall racism-quenching Heather Rabatt of Chelski.) #KickItOut? #ItsStillThereFFS!
When I bring up the subject on my blog elsewhere the topic of Chelsea fans
tolerance of and inherent racist stance for many decades, the W9 CFC fan I'm arguing with - outside footie he's otherwise engaging good company,love the sinner hate the sin ~ he simply posts time and time again that infamous puzzling pic of the QPR fan walking to Wembley behind the WBA coffin in 1967 in a KKK style cowel. What IS that all about? Liberal Great Martin Luther King Jnr in 1967 would not be impressed,shirley if he knew of these antics in far-flung west London?++++ The CFC fans laboured tedious repetitive point being that every football club 's fanbase has a racist minority,CFC & QPR supporters being no exception. It's a point I hear many times from making excuses CareFreeCounts fans ; that racism is global and endemic and their fan base minority racist attitude Is nothing exceptional.
Your thoughts, or strong convincing white hood cowel explanations, fellow hoops?
Very good thoughtful meat-for-the-mind educative thread everybody BTW. [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 10:52]
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| 'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please. |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:21 - Dec 1 with 1526 views | daveB |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 08:43 - Dec 1 by MedwayR |
There won't be any coverage of it because there's no shocking revelations in the documentary.
As good as the documentary was all it showed was that John Terry is a racist coward - well we all knew that so nothing new there - and that Anton Ferdinand was badly let down and it had an impact on him and his career, which we knew a bit of although not the extent and the real story is the impact it had on him, which isn't going to get the attention or sympathy of many because he'll just be seen as a millionaire footballer, it's only words etc.
Plus of course it's a subject many people don't want the discomfort of facing. |
It was heavily featured on Sky Sports News this morning with clips from the documentary and a response from the FA |  | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:24 - Dec 1 with 1512 views | joe90 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:54 - Dec 1 by Rangers67 |
Well why not ?, Good reasons to bring him back to show our support for what he has been through as a person, also when he was here he always gave 100% as far as I can remember, plus it also sends a signal to the outside world ( if they are watching ) about what sort of club we are etc etc , I could go on. I don,t think the players level of ability is normally a big deciding factor in the decision to enroll them or not, I may be wrong. |
All valid points.
I think there's a more general point about how clubs/institutions in football always seek to make big gestures but never really do what actually counts, which goes back to what Les has said.
As mentioned in my previous point, there's bigger issue within football. It's not simply about dealing with overt racism, it's the toxic culture as a whole as exemplified in the exchange between Anton and Terry.
I think the Forever R's Club should be for players who have had some significant impact on the club/fans and that could be having played a certain number of games, captained the side, played during a 'successful' campaign, or simply a fan favourite. Otherwise it just becomes meaningless. I don't think it's role is to be an aid or a tool to show solidarity.
As Anton was saying in the documentary, even coming forward and speaking about it comes with stigma. The way to deal with that is for the authorities within the game to properly punish the perpetrators and for victims not have to be subjected to well meaning gestures of support that more about the person/institutions than the victim.
As Anton said, it wasn't what Terry said that caused all the damage, it was the response to it.
He shouldn't have to make a documentary about his experience. We should be at point where racism is just dealt with without a song and dance. The response should be normalised and consistent. Action followed by consequence, and eventually players will get it.
A side note, I think Anton was clearly effected by the death of his mother and it seemed to diffuse the documentary a bit, there's clearly a lot going on in his head that he can't articulate. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:26 - Dec 1 with 1508 views | 18StoneOfHoop |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:21 - Dec 1 by daveB |
It was heavily featured on Sky Sports News this morning with clips from the documentary and a response from the FA |
Av you got a link to the Sky BBC doc coverage, Dave? [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 10:36]
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| 'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please. |
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| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:27 - Dec 1 with 1506 views | francisbowles |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 09:13 - Dec 1 by BrianMcCarthy |
"You would also think the club is better at supporting a player in that situation 9 years on (I think we walked off in an under 23s overseas game, correct me if I'm wrong)."
I found this to be another interesting aspect of the programme - no reaction from either of the teams involved.
No statement from Chelsea as to how they treated the incident where they Captain was suspended for racial abuse and no tackling of their huge catalogue of racist incidents.
And no statement from Rangers either. In our case, there is no-one in a position of power at the club who was there in 2011, but it was strange that the programme didn't seek a statement anyway which would have allowed us to highlight how we are the polar opposite of Chelsea when it comes to inclusion and equality.
Maybe it was just a question of editing as they only had an hour to tell what was really a story of Ferdinand's personal journey but if nothing else I would have thought that Anton having a cousin now in a position of power at Rangers was an interesting fact. |
The owners were there, although newly arrived. They could have been asked. I would imagine this was discussed at that level.
As for Anton's cousin, was he the one in the programme and what 'position of power' do they hold at the Rrrrs?
It was good to hear NW and Jordan Henderson admitting to previous negative behaviours and expressing their regret for them and their support of Anton. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:29 - Dec 1 with 1499 views | Maggsinho |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:27 - Dec 1 by francisbowles |
The owners were there, although newly arrived. They could have been asked. I would imagine this was discussed at that level.
As for Anton's cousin, was he the one in the programme and what 'position of power' do they hold at the Rrrrs?
It was good to hear NW and Jordan Henderson admitting to previous negative behaviours and expressing their regret for them and their support of Anton. |
Brian is referring to Les - Anton and Rio's cousin. That was Max Ferdinand n the documentary. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:35 - Dec 1 with 1471 views | Rangers67 |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:20 - Dec 1 by 18StoneOfHoop |
nix you write:
"Meanwhile I doubt whether Chelsea want to defend their record with regard to racist employees and incidents!"
Not sure about this, in the fans not the management's case.(Bruce Buck trying to be the Millwall racism-quenching Heather Rabatt of Chelski.) #KickItOut? #ItsStillThereFFS!
When I bring up the subject on my blog elsewhere the topic of Chelsea fans
tolerance of and inherent racist stance for many decades, the W9 CFC fan I'm arguing with - outside footie he's otherwise engaging good company,love the sinner hate the sin ~ he simply posts time and time again that infamous puzzling pic of the QPR fan walking to Wembley behind the WBA coffin in 1967 in a KKK style cowel. What IS that all about? Liberal Great Martin Luther King Jnr in 1967 would not be impressed,shirley if he knew of these antics in far-flung west London?++++ The CFC fans laboured tedious repetitive point being that every football club 's fanbase has a racist minority,CFC & QPR supporters being no exception. It's a point I hear many times from making excuses CareFreeCounts fans ; that racism is global and endemic and their fan base minority racist attitude Is nothing exceptional.
Your thoughts, or strong convincing white hood cowel explanations, fellow hoops?
Very good thoughtful meat-for-the-mind educative thread everybody BTW. [Post edited 1 Dec 2020 10:52]
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Although I agree that image is quite disturbing without being able to speak to the person and ask for his reasons for wearing that we can debate it all day long and not get an answer. The point is that was 1967 when people should have known better than to wear that get up but this is incident was 2011 when there is absolutely no excuse for Terry,s behaviour. It sounds like your friend from SW6 is clutching at straws. The problem is a societal one that needs fixing from the top down with the implementation of more people of varying ethnic and gender background being in positions of power along with education in the schools.
This particular incident has been distilled because it involved the England captain not because on the other side there was Anton Ferdinand and until that changes society has a problem. | | | |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:36 - Dec 1 with 1463 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Anton Ferdinand Documentary on 10:29 - Dec 1 by Maggsinho |
Brian is referring to Les - Anton and Rio's cousin. That was Max Ferdinand n the documentary. |
Yes, Les.
It's just another interesting aspect. And maybe signs of what is possible if football is run properly and free of racism. | |
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