| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? 08:39 - Jul 22 with 14640 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Meant to ask this question a few times but this article prompted me. It's a decent thought process without being brilliant from a journalist who is brave though not always logical, but I found it interesting and it's prompted me to finally ask you good people - what is it about Corbyn that scares the Guardian?
http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2016-07-22/why-corbyn-so-terrifies-the-guardia
I don't read the paper as much as I used to but I follow it on facebook and there's a daily 'cut-and-paste'-type hate-Corbyn article that's almost Orwellian at this stage.
Is the Guardian no longer left-wing?
Is it personal?
Do they support an opponent in particular?
Is he dangerous? Or dangerously bad?
I'd really appreciate any insight.
Now, where's that music thread... [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 8:40]
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 13:52 - Jul 22 with 1510 views | NW5Hoop |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 12:41 - Jul 22 by Cliff |
A couple of things, firstly who says that Corbyn is unelectable? - he's appears to me to have been elected to lead the labour party by the both the biggest majority combined with the highest number of voters that have ever elected a party leader in this country. Also note that in the two days leading up to the deadline to vote in the latest leadership election, more NEW people paid to be full members of the Labour party than there are members of the Tory party!
Secondly, as you may have guessed, I have left wing leanings and I'm often asked what's the point of having a leader if he's unelectable? well perhaps the question we should be asking is what's the point of have a left wing party that has no left wing credentials? I'm one of those that firmly believe that that under Blair the Labour party became the Tory-lite, and it's about time we had a proper labour party - and yes even if that means it is unelectable. Those that don't want to vote for a left wing party or the Tories always have the Liberals to rely on.
Finally on the subject of electability, Plaid Cymru and the SNP put out left wing manifesto's and they seem to be able to attract votes. In short in my view it's not a case of Corbyn being out of touch with the party, it's the majority of Labour MPs who are out of touch with the majority of Labour members. |
The shocking failures cast a long shadow over the Blair government, notably Iraq. But people tend to forget massive investment in health and education, large numbers of people lifted out of poverty through tax credits, the expansion of SureStart, and so on. It was a government that did a lot of good (and which didn't bugger up the economy; that was the banks, thanks to rightwing deregulation in the US and UK in the 1980s).
But that government was only able to do good things because it got elected. Without power, you can't help anyone. So, yes, I have no problem with a Labour party which does not perfectly reflect my views doing more good in government than any other party would — the best is very much the enemy of the better.
Plaid and SNP put out manifestos that were leftwing in parts. But voting for pro-independence parties does not follow a left-right binary; there's also an independence-unionist axis. And that's the axis on which most people vote. I doubt their vote shares would have changed much had they been avowedly centrist or soft right. |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 14:14 - Jul 22 with 1472 views | Cliff |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 13:52 - Jul 22 by NW5Hoop |
The shocking failures cast a long shadow over the Blair government, notably Iraq. But people tend to forget massive investment in health and education, large numbers of people lifted out of poverty through tax credits, the expansion of SureStart, and so on. It was a government that did a lot of good (and which didn't bugger up the economy; that was the banks, thanks to rightwing deregulation in the US and UK in the 1980s).
But that government was only able to do good things because it got elected. Without power, you can't help anyone. So, yes, I have no problem with a Labour party which does not perfectly reflect my views doing more good in government than any other party would — the best is very much the enemy of the better.
Plaid and SNP put out manifestos that were leftwing in parts. But voting for pro-independence parties does not follow a left-right binary; there's also an independence-unionist axis. And that's the axis on which most people vote. I doubt their vote shares would have changed much had they been avowedly centrist or soft right. |
The Blair year failures for me also include the failure to reverse the "internal market" in the NHS as promised, the use of PFI, the introduction of tuition fees, the continuation of the selling off of social housing, and the introduction of tuition fees ... I could go on but these are the ones I feel are affecting me and my family the most and will have the greatest impact on future generations.
I agree a government can do most good when in power but as I say I personally hate the choice of Tory or Tory-lite as I perceive it.
With regards to the SNP I disagree almost entirely. I think it was their independence stance that held them back, once the referendum was over and Scotland was certain of being part of the UK for the foreseeable future, people felt safe to vote for SNP and their left wing policies. I don't think that would have occurred if they were a centrist or soft right, I think they took voters with left wing leanings (hence the fall of the Scottish Labour Party) who didn't want to leave the UK. |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 14:21 - Jul 22 with 1456 views | Konk |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 14:14 - Jul 22 by Cliff |
The Blair year failures for me also include the failure to reverse the "internal market" in the NHS as promised, the use of PFI, the introduction of tuition fees, the continuation of the selling off of social housing, and the introduction of tuition fees ... I could go on but these are the ones I feel are affecting me and my family the most and will have the greatest impact on future generations.
I agree a government can do most good when in power but as I say I personally hate the choice of Tory or Tory-lite as I perceive it.
With regards to the SNP I disagree almost entirely. I think it was their independence stance that held them back, once the referendum was over and Scotland was certain of being part of the UK for the foreseeable future, people felt safe to vote for SNP and their left wing policies. I don't think that would have occurred if they were a centrist or soft right, I think they took voters with left wing leanings (hence the fall of the Scottish Labour Party) who didn't want to leave the UK. |
From chatting with friends and colleagues, I know a fair few Scots who voted SNP in the GE, despite voting no in the Independence referendum. They did so as the manifesto was more in keeping with old Labour values. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 14:27 - Jul 22 with 1450 views | THEBUSH |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 10:33 - Jul 22 by Gloucs_R |
Do any of you really believe in the whole socialist thing? If so, what do you think would be a fair tax on earnings? |
Not all of us can afford to go to boarding schools or have private health plans.
I use the National Health Service and went to a state school, so if that makes me a socialist, then count me in  |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 14:48 - Jul 22 with 1423 views | essextaxiboy |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 11:16 - Jul 22 by DaiHo0p |
100% across the board. State then pays for everything. |
Really ? Where do they get the money from ? |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 15:11 - Jul 22 with 1395 views | loftboy |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 14:48 - Jul 22 by essextaxiboy |
Really ? Where do they get the money from ? |
From taking 100% of everyone's earnings id imagine. |  |
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 15:34 - Jul 22 with 1363 views | SomersetHoops |
I regret that our version of democracy is far from perfect. We actually vote for an MP, not a party and I look for someone who claims to support what I believe in. This doesn't work because MP's must follow the party line developed by faceless unelected grandees of parties or individuals who gain influence by financial support of that party. I would prefer it if the person I elected considered each issue they vote on and voted based on that considered viewpoint, rather than following the whips into the lobbies as instructed by their party.
I think it might be good if the opposition was split two or three or even more ways, then each grouping would need to gain consensus between themselves of the best way forward if they were to make an impact upon any majority government.
Although I can never forgive the Liberals for selling out out university students by increasing fees for A PR vote they were never going to win, they had a moderating influence on Cameron's Tory boy objectives and that was a good thing. Now it seems this government is going to increase Uni. fees even more in a drive to ensure only the wealthy elite can afford to go there, leaving the young people of ordinary parents saddled with loans that will blight their lives and prospects for many years.
Salaries of directors of major companies have grown many times more than those workers who actually work to generate the profits they control to their own many benefits. This has been happening under "New Labour" and the Tories and needs to be brought back under control. What happens is a cartel of so called "Top People" who are responsible for approving each others remuneration packages leading to obscene rises while their workers are often lucky to keep pace with inflation. This needs to change, but I doubt there is a single politician out there who will do anything about it.
BTW I am not a disgruntled factory floor worker I run my own very small, but (currently, but who knows how long) successful business and I sympathise with those not in a position to do that who despite being conscientious and hard working are not rewarded sufficiently in proportion to their "fat cat" bosses. End of Friday PM political rant:::::::::! |  |
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 15:45 - Jul 22 with 1341 views | Boston |
It's a country of people trying to run a small business v those who won't mind their own business. | |
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:03 - Jul 22 with 1309 views | Cliff |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 15:45 - Jul 22 by Boston |
It's a country of people trying to run a small business v those who won't mind their own business. |
.. and who generally have small minds  | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:14 - Jul 22 with 1296 views | Northernr |
Like it or not Corbyn appears to be condemning us to many years of stranglehold, almost unopposed Tory rule with the only significant opposition coming from the SNP who obviously don't give two shts about those of us south of the border. Whether you're red or blue right or left its not helpful to have one party completely free to do as it pleases, make as many mistakes as it likes etc and still be in government. |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:20 - Jul 22 with 1282 views | hoof_hearted |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:14 - Jul 22 by Northernr |
Like it or not Corbyn appears to be condemning us to many years of stranglehold, almost unopposed Tory rule with the only significant opposition coming from the SNP who obviously don't give two shts about those of us south of the border. Whether you're red or blue right or left its not helpful to have one party completely free to do as it pleases, make as many mistakes as it likes etc and still be in government. |
Or, if he wins convincingly then there'll be a new opposition party within weeks... |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:20 - Jul 22 with 1282 views | robith |
Knew that would put the cat amongst the pigeons :)
"Why should I work my whole life not to pass it on to...." your children who have not done anything to earn it other than be born. Who then get a whole load of benefits of getting a load of wealth that they didn't earn. Who received the benefits throughout their life of your capital -better education, better healthcare and better job prospects - your children benefit through your status their entire lives and now they need a stockpile of cash to do more? After you've stockpiled it keeping it out of the economy denying people the benefit of growth. Which then isn't reinvested in the economy because the return on capital is greater than the return on growth? Especially as it won't really impact on you - it's the elite of the elite who are warping capitalism in their favour. If we had it, your children's lives would be greatly enriched and you wouldn't need to hand them all your cash - society would be better balanced.
I often say it just to get the rise, but talk myself into it. Inherited wealth is the single biggest cause of inequality and is pretty much singlehandedly warping our democracy. We either take the steps to amend it, or we accept we're ok with the status quo. So yeah. 100% inheritance tax. I'm in favour. :)
Have a read and expand your minds
Have a great weekend |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:34 - Jul 22 with 1257 views | paulparker |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:20 - Jul 22 by robith |
Knew that would put the cat amongst the pigeons :)
"Why should I work my whole life not to pass it on to...." your children who have not done anything to earn it other than be born. Who then get a whole load of benefits of getting a load of wealth that they didn't earn. Who received the benefits throughout their life of your capital -better education, better healthcare and better job prospects - your children benefit through your status their entire lives and now they need a stockpile of cash to do more? After you've stockpiled it keeping it out of the economy denying people the benefit of growth. Which then isn't reinvested in the economy because the return on capital is greater than the return on growth? Especially as it won't really impact on you - it's the elite of the elite who are warping capitalism in their favour. If we had it, your children's lives would be greatly enriched and you wouldn't need to hand them all your cash - society would be better balanced.
I often say it just to get the rise, but talk myself into it. Inherited wealth is the single biggest cause of inequality and is pretty much singlehandedly warping our democracy. We either take the steps to amend it, or we accept we're ok with the status quo. So yeah. 100% inheritance tax. I'm in favour. :)
Have a read and expand your minds
Have a great weekend |
Just out of Interest are you a homeowner ? |  |
| And Bowles is onside, Swinburne has come rushing out of his goal , what can Bowles do here , onto the left foot no, on to the right foot
That’s there that’s two, and that’s Bowles
Brian Moore
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:37 - Jul 22 with 1241 views | Discodroids |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 12:58 - Jul 22 by stevec |
Oh blloks, that's blown my entire fckin argument out the water.
Cheers though Danny, I bow to your superior (left wing) intellect. |
Friend Steve, You May Mock Us with your far right, dog whistling politics of hate . However, may I remind you that Our NHS was Built by The Labour Party which has now been destroyed by this totally unelected Tory Junta Government .
Our NHS is the envy of the world, and indeed elsewhere.
Let us not forget Friend Steve , our Friend Eddie Izzard, who was so helpful to the Remainers' campaign last month, just as Friend Russell Brand was to Ex Friend Millibands election campaign last year.
Which in any case , Labour only lost because of the vicious Exit Poll which was influenced by the Far right Murdoch / Dacre Joy division Press. In addition, Ex Friend Miliband's Far-Right racist Neoliberalism, which caused millions of Labour supporters to vote Tory and UKIP in protest.
The worm is turning Friend Steve, I often hear ex Labour Voters In the East Ham Working Mens Club saying "if only the Party were completely controlled by middle class Trots campaigning alongside eco-wnkers and whinging Celtic nationalists then I'd vote for them again in a Fackin Shot".
Friend Steve,Surely you understand a Corbynite Labour Party in alliance with the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Greens will sweep the board in England in 2020 and Probably the White house in 2022 as well .
In fact now i think about it , Its Far right Hate Mongers such as you ex Friend Steve, that make millions of us on the Progressive Left turn to twitter.
It is outrageous that Twitter only allows 140 characters under this Tory Militia!. How can we on the Progressive Left possibly convey our message of Sociali [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 16:39]
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| "...The monkey is never dead, Dealer. The monkey never dies. When you kick him off, he just hides in a corner, waiting his turn." |
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:39 - Jul 22 with 1241 views | hoof_hearted |
People would just have family trusts or give it to them while they're alive or spend it on them lavishly in old age. The wealth would probably end up staying in the family more than it does now.
And if they closed every possibility of doing that then the very wealthy would make sure they live in a different country.
High tax rates give lower tax revenue to be able to improve society. Labour understand that except Corbyn's mob who would happily see us all being equal by all being skint. | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 17:00 - Jul 22 with 1208 views | Cliff |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:39 - Jul 22 by hoof_hearted |
People would just have family trusts or give it to them while they're alive or spend it on them lavishly in old age. The wealth would probably end up staying in the family more than it does now.
And if they closed every possibility of doing that then the very wealthy would make sure they live in a different country.
High tax rates give lower tax revenue to be able to improve society. Labour understand that except Corbyn's mob who would happily see us all being equal by all being skint. |
Was agreeing with all of that until the crap at the end.
Higher tax rates lead to people who pay their taxes paying more, but may tip more people over into tax fraud.
What pisses me off is that the government are always spouting off about benefit fraud, but are relatively quiet on tax evasion. There are helpline for whistle-blowers on fraudsters, crackdowns every couple of years, but nothing effective on tax evasion.
Now don't get me wrong I thing both are bad and a £1 lost to fraud is the same as a £1 lost to tax evasion but given that the official estimates are that tax evasion costs 20-30 time more that benefit fraud:
http://www.theweek.co.uk/62461/benefit-fraud-v-tax-evasion-which-costs-more
I can't see why the government is seemingly more concerns about benefit fraud, one might almost be led to believe that the fact that they are not on benefits and therefor find it difficult to be fraudulent, but do pay taxes and have something to hide may be the cause! | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 17:04 - Jul 22 with 1194 views | martincook |
It seems to me the article that Brian linked to in his original post answers the question perfectly. I don't know anything about the bloke who wrote it, Jonathan Cook - all I can go on is his reasoning.
All the other contributions so far are interesting. NW5Hoop is itk and articulate in the way his profession requires, so he's always going to be worth reading. But does refraction inside the Guardian "bubble" improve his perception of events outside or obscure them? His assertion that "Jonathan Cook… is a crazed conspiracy theorist who hates the Guardian" didn't inspire confidence in his objectivity. Much as I accept and agree with most of his contribution here, I think he may be missing several points by reminding us about the good and the bad in Blair's governments.
"The shocking failures cast a long shadow over the Blair government, notably Iraq."
Yes, we all agree.
"But people tend to forget massive investment in health and education, large numbers of people lifted out of poverty through tax credits, the expansion of SureStart, and so on."
This sounds like the New Labour manifesto my Dad subjects me to whenever he gets upset about the News (he's an R and he's 91, so perhaps I'll come round in the end). The fact is that these investments in health were nevertheless inadequate and in education, they were frequently misplaced. Huge numbers of people remain in poverty, partly as a result of Blair's failure to introduce radical reform. Both his and Peter Mandelson's "intense relaxation" about the virtue of extreme wealth paved the way for Cameron's assault both on the poor and on the not so poor. If NW5Hoop thinks this is OK (which I doubt) fair enough, that's his view. If he doesn't, why would he have a problem with Jeremy Corbyn? I think Cliff and Brightonhoop are very clear about why no-one should.
The excellent Konk joined Labour to vote for Corbyn but now he's not so happy. Stick with it, I say. You wanted to protest at the way Labour had gone. Now, if you don't vote for him again you'll be asking Labour to go back to what you were protesting about in the first place. If he's not re-elected, all those old careerist farts will be back with a vengeance. If he and his supporters don't stand for what you want, I can understand you changing your mind but I don't think anyone should take a view based on the vitriolic frenzy and bias of the media, or of the aggressive desperation that characterises their opponents in the PLP. I've heard it suggested that Corbyn and Momentum are "hard left". Nothing could be further from the truth. In the overall history of the Labour movement, they come out just to the left of centre. They are, however, principled, reasonable and determined. I don't see anything wrong with that. |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 18:04 - Jul 22 with 1138 views | essextaxiboy |
Or got children ? | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 18:33 - Jul 22 with 1115 views | MrSheen |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:20 - Jul 22 by robith |
Knew that would put the cat amongst the pigeons :)
"Why should I work my whole life not to pass it on to...." your children who have not done anything to earn it other than be born. Who then get a whole load of benefits of getting a load of wealth that they didn't earn. Who received the benefits throughout their life of your capital -better education, better healthcare and better job prospects - your children benefit through your status their entire lives and now they need a stockpile of cash to do more? After you've stockpiled it keeping it out of the economy denying people the benefit of growth. Which then isn't reinvested in the economy because the return on capital is greater than the return on growth? Especially as it won't really impact on you - it's the elite of the elite who are warping capitalism in their favour. If we had it, your children's lives would be greatly enriched and you wouldn't need to hand them all your cash - society would be better balanced.
I often say it just to get the rise, but talk myself into it. Inherited wealth is the single biggest cause of inequality and is pretty much singlehandedly warping our democracy. We either take the steps to amend it, or we accept we're ok with the status quo. So yeah. 100% inheritance tax. I'm in favour. :)
Have a read and expand your minds
Have a great weekend |
So if my wife and I get killed in a road accident, my teenage kids should be left homeless and penniless? Riiiiiiight...
Savings aren't kept out of the economy. They are available for investment, either through the banking system or through long-term institutions like pension funds. |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 18:35 - Jul 22 with 1107 views | stevec |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 16:37 - Jul 22 by Discodroids |
Friend Steve, You May Mock Us with your far right, dog whistling politics of hate . However, may I remind you that Our NHS was Built by The Labour Party which has now been destroyed by this totally unelected Tory Junta Government .
Our NHS is the envy of the world, and indeed elsewhere.
Let us not forget Friend Steve , our Friend Eddie Izzard, who was so helpful to the Remainers' campaign last month, just as Friend Russell Brand was to Ex Friend Millibands election campaign last year.
Which in any case , Labour only lost because of the vicious Exit Poll which was influenced by the Far right Murdoch / Dacre Joy division Press. In addition, Ex Friend Miliband's Far-Right racist Neoliberalism, which caused millions of Labour supporters to vote Tory and UKIP in protest.
The worm is turning Friend Steve, I often hear ex Labour Voters In the East Ham Working Mens Club saying "if only the Party were completely controlled by middle class Trots campaigning alongside eco-wnkers and whinging Celtic nationalists then I'd vote for them again in a Fackin Shot".
Friend Steve,Surely you understand a Corbynite Labour Party in alliance with the SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Greens will sweep the board in England in 2020 and Probably the White house in 2022 as well .
In fact now i think about it , Its Far right Hate Mongers such as you ex Friend Steve, that make millions of us on the Progressive Left turn to twitter.
It is outrageous that Twitter only allows 140 characters under this Tory Militia!. How can we on the Progressive Left possibly convey our message of Sociali [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 16:39]
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Et Tu Disco.
They got me proper today, cornered and beaten senseless with rolled up copies of the Guardian newspaper. And now this. |  | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 18:38 - Jul 22 with 1103 views | MrSheen |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 13:49 - Jul 22 by E17hoop |
Corbyn is a leader of principle, not practice. He may want to represent a different kind of politics but doesn't have the capability to make it work.
By capability I mean it in its purest form; capacity and ability. In terms of capacity, the 'mandate' he has from a party membership is meaningless without power. An increase of 200k in a membership in an electorate of 38m is a drop in the ocean.
Ability wise, he may be able to define policy but that's not what his role is; he needs to be able to lead people, including those who disagree with him. If the PLP disagree with him and he can't lead them, what chance dies he have leading people even further removed from his principles? [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 13:50]
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Corbyn has preserved his principles by never having run anything for 39 of his 40 years of public life. Unlike Ken Livingstone for example, he's never had to make a decision based on calculations of what might be the lesser evil. No one can accuse him of breaking his word or selling out, because he's never been in a position to do anything, never had to live with the consequences of an action. | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 18:43 - Jul 22 with 1098 views | Clive_Anderson |
I think it's possible to be left wing and still think Corbyn is a bit barmy.
Has he got any opinions that aren't identical to the hard left from the 1970s? He seems to have learned nothing in the last 40 years.
There's plenty of sensible left-wing policies that are worth arguing for, but it all seems to be about more control and punishing "bad" people. | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 18:43 - Jul 22 with 1097 views | QPR_John |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 15:11 - Jul 22 by loftboy |
From taking 100% of everyone's earnings id imagine. |
But what of those that decided not to bother to earn anything under such a system | | | |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 19:04 - Jul 22 with 1063 views | DannytheR |
The point about inherited wealth is that is destroys any hope of a level playing field.
It's the bit of right-wing thinking that never adds up. We're told to be hard-working individualists and despise hand outs, while being governed by people who were handed everything.
State school Tories crack me up. Henchmen and forelock tuggers. [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 19:05]
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| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 19:37 - Jul 22 with 1036 views | QPR_John |
| Why Does The Guardian Hate Corbyn? on 19:04 - Jul 22 by DannytheR |
The point about inherited wealth is that is destroys any hope of a level playing field.
It's the bit of right-wing thinking that never adds up. We're told to be hard-working individualists and despise hand outs, while being governed by people who were handed everything.
State school Tories crack me up. Henchmen and forelock tuggers. [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 19:05]
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So to hurt those you despise that were handed everything you take a sledge hammer to crack a nut by denying Mr Joe Ordinary the right to help his kids [Post edited 22 Jul 2016 19:38]
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