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It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness – well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? – to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job – food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
0
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 15:20 - Jun 15 with 3502 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 15:09 - Jun 15 by anotherbiffo
AA Gill June 12 2016, 12:01am, The Sunday Times
It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness – well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? – to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job – food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
Just eight days to go until a rather important vote and only now are we told that unless we vote the right way, we face a massive tax hike along with deeply damaging cuts to public services.
Over 50 Conservative MPs have already agreed to oppose this extreme [and vindictive] proposal. With a working majority of just 12 the govt will never get it through The Commons. (Can't see any of Labour or SNP supporting this.)
Mr Chancellor, you can tax the shirt off my back but you will never change my mind.
Edgar Allan's Crow
0
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 16:18 - Jun 15 with 3426 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 15:09 - Jun 15 by anotherbiffo
AA Gill June 12 2016, 12:01am, The Sunday Times
It was the woman on Question Time that really did it for me. She was so familiar. There is someone like her in every queue, every coffee shop, outside every school in every parish council in the country. Middle-aged, middle-class, middle-brow, over-made-up, with her National Health face and weatherproof English expression of hurt righteousness, she’s Britannia’s mother-in-law. The camera closed in on her and she shouted: “All I want is my country back. Give me my country back.”
It was a heartfelt cry of real distress and the rest of the audience erupted in sympathetic applause, but I thought: “Back from what? Back from where?”
Wanting the country back is the constant mantra of all the outies. Farage slurs it, Gove insinuates it. Of course I know what they mean. We all know what they mean. They mean back from Johnny Foreigner, back from the brink, back from the future, back-to-back, back to bosky hedges and dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity.
We all know what “getting our country back” means. It’s snorting a line of the most pernicious and debilitating Little English drug, nostalgia. The warm, crumbly, honey-coloured, collective “yesterday” with its fond belief that everything was better back then, that Britain (England, really) is a worse place now than it was at some foggy point in the past where we achieved peak Blighty. It’s the knowledge that the best of us have been and gone, that nothing we can build will be as lovely as a National Trust Georgian country house, no art will be as good as a Turner, no poem as wonderful as If, no writer a touch on Shakespeare or Dickens, nothing will grow as lovely as a cottage garden, no hero greater than Nelson, no politician better than Churchill, no view more throat-catching than the White Cliffs and that we will never manufacture anything as great as a Rolls-Royce or Flying Scotsman again.
The dream of Brexit isn’t that we might be able to make a brighter, new, energetic tomorrow, it’s a desire to shuffle back to a regret-curdled inward-looking yesterday. In the Brexit fantasy, the best we can hope for is to kick out all the work-all-hours foreigners and become caretakers to our own past in this self-congratulatory island of moaning and pomposity.
And if you think that’s an exaggeration of the Brexit position, then just listen to the language they use: “We are a nation of inventors and entrepreneurs, we want to put the great back in Britain, the great engineers, the great manufacturers.” This is all the expression of a sentimental nostalgia. In the Brexiteer’s mind’s eye is the old Pathé newsreel of Donald Campbell, of John Logie Baird with his television, Barnes Wallis and his bouncing bomb, and Robert Baden-Powell inventing boy scouts in his shed.
All we need, their argument goes, is to be free of the humourless Germans and spoilsport French and all their collective liberalism and reality. There is a concomitant hope that if we manage to back out of Europe, then we’ll get back to the bowler-hatted 1950s and the Commonwealth will hold pageants, fireworks displays and beg to be back in the Queen Empress’s good books again. Then New Zealand will sacrifice a thousand lambs, Ghana will ask if it can go back to being called the Gold Coast and Britain will resume hand-making Land Rovers and top hats and Sheffield plate teapots.
There is a reason that most of the people who want to leave the EU are old while those who want to remain are young: it’s because the young aren’t infected with Bisto nostalgia. They don’t recognise half the stuff I’ve mentioned here. They’ve grown up in the EU and at worst it’s been neutral for them.
The under-thirties want to be part of things, not aloof from them. They’re about being joined-up and counted. I imagine a phrase most outies identify with is “women’s liberation has gone too far”. Everything has gone too far for them, from political correctness – well, that’s gone mad, hasn’t it? – to health and safety and gender-neutral lavatories. Those oldies, they don’t know if they’re coming or going, what with those newfangled mobile phones and kids on Tinder and Grindr. What happened to meeting Miss Joan Hunter Dunn at the tennis club? And don’t get them started on electric hand dryers, or something unrecognised in the bagging area, or Indian call centres , or the impertinent computer asking for a password that has both capitals and little letters and numbers and more than eight digits.
Brexit is the fond belief that Britain is worse now than at some point in the foggy past where we achieved peak Blighty We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”
Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.
You won’t wake up on June 24 and think: “Oh my word, my arthritis has gone! My teeth are suddenly whiter! Magically, I seem to know how to make a soufflé and I’m buff with the power of sovereignty.” This is something only politicians care about; it makes not a jot of difference to you or me if the Supreme Court is a bunch of strangely out-of-touch old gits in wigs in Westminster or a load of strangely out-of-touch old gits without wigs in Luxembourg. What matters is that we have as many judges as possible on the side of personal freedom.
Personally, I see nothing about our legislators in the UK that makes me feel I can confidently give them more power. The more checks and balances politicians have, the better for the rest of us. You can’t have too many wise heads and different opinions. If you’re really worried about red tape, by the way, it’s not just a European problem. We’re perfectly capable of coming up with our own rules and regulations and we have no shortage of jobsworths. Red tape may be annoying, but it is also there to protect your and my family from being lied to, poisoned and cheated.
The first “X” I ever put on a voting slip was to say yes to the EU. The first referendum was when I was 20 years old. This one will be in the week of my 62nd birthday. For nearly all my adult life, there hasn’t been a day when I haven’t been pleased and proud to be part of this great collective. If you ask me for my nationality, the truth is I feel more European than anything else. I am part of this culture, this European civilisation. I can walk into any gallery on our continent and completely understand the images and the stories on the walls. These people are my people and they have been for thousands of years. I can read books on subjects from Ancient Greece to Dark Ages Scandinavia, from Renaissance Italy to 19th-century France, and I don’t need the context or the landscape explained to me. The music of Europe, from its scales and its instruments to its rhythms and religion, is my music. The Renaissance, the rococo, the Romantics, the impressionists, gothic, baroque, neoclassicism, realism, expressionism, futurism, fauvism, cubism, dada, surrealism, postmodernism and kitsch were all European movements and none of them belongs to a single nation.
There is a reason why the Chinese are making fake Italian handbags and the Italians aren’t making fake Chinese ones. This European culture, without question or argument, is the greatest, most inventive, subtle, profound, beautiful and powerful genius that was ever contrived anywhere by anyone and it belongs to us. Just look at my day job – food. The change in food culture and pleasure has been enormous since we joined the EU, and that’s no coincidence. What we eat, the ingredients, the recipes, may come from around the world, but it is the collective to and fro of European interests, expertise and imagination that has made it all so very appetising and exciting.
The restaurant was a European invention, naturally. The first one in Paris was called The London Bridge.
Culture works and grows through the constant warp and weft of creators, producers, consumers, intellectuals and instinctive lovers. You can’t dictate or legislate for it, you can just make a place that encourages it and you can truncate it. You can make it harder and more grudging, you can put up barriers and you can build walls, but why on earth would you? This collective culture, this golden civilisation grown on this continent over thousands of years, has made everything we have and everything we are, why would you not want to be part of it?
I understand that if we leave we don’t have to hand back our library ticket for European civilisation, but why would we even think about it? In fact, the only ones who would are those old, philistine scared gits. Look at them, too frightened to join in.
I read the ST, and Gill's an interesting restaurant critic. That's about it - he's a journo, paid to express opinions. He's expressed some bloody tripe in his time, I can tell you.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 16:03 - Jun 15 by wimborne_dale
Just eight days to go until a rather important vote and only now are we told that unless we vote the right way, we face a massive tax hike along with deeply damaging cuts to public services.
Over 50 Conservative MPs have already agreed to oppose this extreme [and vindictive] proposal. With a working majority of just 12 the govt will never get it through The Commons. (Can't see any of Labour or SNP supporting this.)
Mr Chancellor, you can tax the shirt off my back but you will never change my mind.
I think that Boy George has been sniffing the white stuff again coming out with the rubbish he did. I am for in, however, NO ONE KNOWS what level if any the economy will slow down if there is a Brexit vote, and it might be a temporary slump that might recover very quickly. It would NOT be a necessity to have an emergency budget until the financial situation became clear. Sick of the lies and exaggerated comments from the Leavers and Remainers, on the economy and migration especially.
A A Gill, Tw@t of the first water. He has insulted just about everyone and everything in the UK over the years . Following Art school, he spent 6 years on the dole, Called the Welsh the Welsh; "loquacious, dissemblers, immoral liars, stunted, bigoted, dark, ugly, pugnacious little trolls" People from the isle of man"hopeless, inbred mouth-breathers known as Bennies". The English; "embarrassing" and an "ugly race" as well as a "lumpen and louty, coarse, unsubtle, beady-eyed, beefy-bummed herd" (Wiki )
A A Gill's sense of his own importance is only eclipsed by his lack of self-awareness Oh, and by the way, he was once married to Conservative Minister Amber Rudd a major "remnant". Still, thanks for the input. Probably on a par with that of Eddie Izzard and Bob Geldorf
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 19:14 - Jun 15 with 3307 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 16:03 - Jun 15 by wimborne_dale
Just eight days to go until a rather important vote and only now are we told that unless we vote the right way, we face a massive tax hike along with deeply damaging cuts to public services.
Over 50 Conservative MPs have already agreed to oppose this extreme [and vindictive] proposal. With a working majority of just 12 the govt will never get it through The Commons. (Can't see any of Labour or SNP supporting this.)
Mr Chancellor, you can tax the shirt off my back but you will never change my mind.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 22:18 - Jun 15 by mingthemerciless
Whoever replaces them will be even more right wing that's for sure. Not looking so bright for the Tories anymore is it ?
You're right, they're totally put in the shade by the megawattage coming from Jeremy Corbyn
No-one's covered themselves in much glory tbh, but once the dust settles, the lack of conviction and input by the left into the biggest political debate of our lifetimes won't be forgotten
Probably as sad as last year's Crewe v Port Vale "two bald men arguing over a comb" thread on 1FF.
Maybe not as sad as the Franchise Dons v AFC Hipster of Norbiton equivalent "we're marginally less plastic than you" which is currently boiling up in the same place....
There are arguments for voting either way.
I'm going to vote out. It's not ideal, but the chance of a vote won't come again....
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 08:39 - Jun 16 with 3072 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 23:59 - Jun 15 by D_Alien
You're right, they're totally put in the shade by the megawattage coming from Jeremy Corbyn
No-one's covered themselves in much glory tbh, but once the dust settles, the lack of conviction and input by the left into the biggest political debate of our lifetimes won't be forgotten
Labour have learnt from their mistakes in Scotland by jumping into bed with the tories up there in the referendum. Although they have advised the Labour supporters to vote remain they are keeping a fair distance away from the tories squabbling and self destruction
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 09:36 - Jun 16 with 3040 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 08:39 - Jun 16 by flyerdale
Labour have learnt from their mistakes in Scotland by jumping into bed with the tories up there in the referendum. Although they have advised the Labour supporters to vote remain they are keeping a fair distance away from the tories squabbling and self destruction
Cheers flyerdale, for confirming what we already knew... that whilst many politicians from parties such as the Tories, UKIP, the Greens are prepared to put their necks and careers on the line, the Labour leadership is showing political cowardice of the highest order when the biggest decisions involving this country are at stake
The British public can see that in plain view, and will vote accordingly at the next election
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 09:36 - Jun 16 by D_Alien
Cheers flyerdale, for confirming what we already knew... that whilst many politicians from parties such as the Tories, UKIP, the Greens are prepared to put their necks and careers on the line, the Labour leadership is showing political cowardice of the highest order when the biggest decisions involving this country are at stake
The British public can see that in plain view, and will vote accordingly at the next election
I find the Labour silence quite disturbing. There's only the excellent Frank Field who seems to have much to say and he's for leaving. Even our own MP's have been mute on the subject. Dansczuk's probably getting in as much red wine as possible in case we leave, whilst trainee corpse McInnes seems to have gone back to her hole in the ground.
Nevertheless, I think the traditional Labour vote will ultimately decide the outcome.
If only those who voted Tory or Ukip at the last General Election were eligible to vote in the referendum, we'd be leaving by a decent margin.
Therefore, only a large Labour turnout for Remain can swing it. I'm dismissing the Libs and Greens as they are so few in number.
And, whilst Labour hq are half heartedly wanting to remain, the traditional Labour* folk I know are voting Out.
*Genuine Labourites, not champagne socialists.
I'm definitely voting Out purely because I hate the idea of us being tied into a bigger parliament over which I have no say. And if it costs me 2p/£1 more in tax it's a price well worth paying, so up yours Osborne!
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 09:36 - Jun 16 by D_Alien
Cheers flyerdale, for confirming what we already knew... that whilst many politicians from parties such as the Tories, UKIP, the Greens are prepared to put their necks and careers on the line, the Labour leadership is showing political cowardice of the highest order when the biggest decisions involving this country are at stake
The British public can see that in plain view, and will vote accordingly at the next election
It's Corbyn's first real test and he's fallen short. It's clear all the grown up parties are wanting a remain result, so it seems straight forward enough to me to have the Conservatives, Labour, LibDems and Greens all singing from the same hymn sheet. As it is, a campaign has been so shambolic that you almost suspect its been intentional on all sides. A Brexit result was unthinkable according to the bookies even up to a few days ago.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 11:25 - Jun 16 with 2962 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 11:12 - Jun 16 by ColDale
It's Corbyn's first real test and he's fallen short. It's clear all the grown up parties are wanting a remain result, so it seems straight forward enough to me to have the Conservatives, Labour, LibDems and Greens all singing from the same hymn sheet. As it is, a campaign has been so shambolic that you almost suspect its been intentional on all sides. A Brexit result was unthinkable according to the bookies even up to a few days ago.
I bet Corbyn votes Out. He won't admit it in public, but for years he's been publically very suspicious of the EU which is probably why he's keeping his gob shut now.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 11:25 - Jun 16 by R17ALE
I bet Corbyn votes Out. He won't admit it in public, but for years he's been publically very suspicious of the EU which is probably why he's keeping his gob shut now.
Despite what many people think and say I have a gut feeling that the out vote will win the day, and buy a bigger margin than anyone expects......
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 10:52 - Jun 16 by R17ALE
I find the Labour silence quite disturbing. There's only the excellent Frank Field who seems to have much to say and he's for leaving. Even our own MP's have been mute on the subject. Dansczuk's probably getting in as much red wine as possible in case we leave, whilst trainee corpse McInnes seems to have gone back to her hole in the ground.
Nevertheless, I think the traditional Labour vote will ultimately decide the outcome.
If only those who voted Tory or Ukip at the last General Election were eligible to vote in the referendum, we'd be leaving by a decent margin.
Therefore, only a large Labour turnout for Remain can swing it. I'm dismissing the Libs and Greens as they are so few in number.
And, whilst Labour hq are half heartedly wanting to remain, the traditional Labour* folk I know are voting Out.
*Genuine Labourites, not champagne socialists.
I'm definitely voting Out purely because I hate the idea of us being tied into a bigger parliament over which I have no say. And if it costs me 2p/£1 more in tax it's a price well worth paying, so up yours Osborne!
"Therefore, only a large Labour turnout for Remain can swing it. I'm dismissing the Libs and Greens as they are so few"
There were over three and a half million votes for the Lib Dems and Greens in 2015 so still a significant number, and my hunch is that the Lib Dems were at the very lowest figure, and might well have more support by the next GE. There are many more who would vote Green under a PR system, but at the moment many vote for Labour, SNP, Plaid, or even Lib Dems .
However many Greens and Lib Dems from working class areas will vote the same way as the majority of Labour working class voters, and that is for Brexit. To me Looking like 55 to 45 percent win for Brexit.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 11:12 - Jun 16 by ColDale
It's Corbyn's first real test and he's fallen short. It's clear all the grown up parties are wanting a remain result, so it seems straight forward enough to me to have the Conservatives, Labour, LibDems and Greens all singing from the same hymn sheet. As it is, a campaign has been so shambolic that you almost suspect its been intentional on all sides. A Brexit result was unthinkable according to the bookies even up to a few days ago.
No matter what kind of campaigning Labour or indeed any other party had done, it would not persuade the majority of working class people vote remain, as they are the ones believe they have suffered as result of immigrants from the. EU, due to housing, schools, jobs etc. Added to that they believe any negative stories in the media about EU. That won't stop the hyenas from within the LP and press/media blaming JC on the defeat though. As a Green, I will Not be blaming the leadership of my party, if remain suffers a loss.
That AA Gill diatribe is as far from the truth as it can be. How arrogant and smarmy can you get? What Leave campaigners want is a new, modern Britain with a modern government and society that reflects this. But feel that this can only be achieved on our own terms; unfettered by the shackles of the European Union.
And how typical of the Remain campaigners to talk down to the so-called little-Englanders: Even threatening to punish,them by raising taxes, for daring to have a different view to theirs. The Leave campaign have a big-World, all-inclusive view: Big-Worlders if you like, not Little-Europeans.
Vote Leave.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 6:44]
The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 06:48 - Jun 17 with 2706 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 06:23 - Jun 17 by mikehunt
That AA Gill diatribe is as far from the truth as it can be. How arrogant and smarmy can you get? What Leave campaigners want is a new, modern Britain with a modern government and society that reflects this. But feel that this can only be achieved on our own terms; unfettered by the shackles of the European Union.
And how typical of the Remain campaigners to talk down to the so-called little-Englanders: Even threatening to punish,them by raising taxes, for daring to have a different view to theirs. The Leave campaign have a big-World, all-inclusive view: Big-Worlders if you like, not Little-Europeans.
Vote Leave.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 6:44]
Modern government ? Will that include eclected second chamber, elected head of state and a modern voting system that reflects the voting wishes of all more closely but at the same time have a constituency link, something like the additional member system in Scotland, Wales or London assembly ? I have NOT heard the leavers talk about this.
Agree about Osborne's pathetic attempt at a bribe, which is not supported by the majority of remain supporters.
Remain believe you can work within Europe AND with the rest of the world, like we do now.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 11:25 - Jun 16 by R17ALE
I bet Corbyn votes Out. He won't admit it in public, but for years he's been publically very suspicious of the EU which is probably why he's keeping his gob shut now.
He has been quite critical of the EU as it stands, like many of us. It does need changing, but we will only influence it my being in it. Our own parliament isn't perfect, needs democratic change like Europe does.
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 06:48 - Jun 17 by 1mark1
Modern government ? Will that include eclected second chamber, elected head of state and a modern voting system that reflects the voting wishes of all more closely but at the same time have a constituency link, something like the additional member system in Scotland, Wales or London assembly ? I have NOT heard the leavers talk about this.
Agree about Osborne's pathetic attempt at a bribe, which is not supported by the majority of remain supporters.
Remain believe you can work within Europe AND with the rest of the world, like we do now.
[Post edited 17 Jun 2016 6:56]
Your first point has no relevance to leave or remain, and is a strawman argument, picking up on one aspect (modern government) that has been mentioned.
You aren't going to get either camp pushing for an elected second chamber and head of state as part of the referendum discussion - so it's not a burden on the leave campaign to do so.
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Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 08:41 - Jun 17 with 2651 views
Brexit or not. How will you vote? on 08:17 - Jun 17 by HK_Dale
Your first point has no relevance to leave or remain, and is a strawman argument, picking up on one aspect (modern government) that has been mentioned.
You aren't going to get either camp pushing for an elected second chamber and head of state as part of the referendum discussion - so it's not a burden on the leave campaign to do so.
In that case, what would be a modern government? The post which 1Mark1 was replying to clearly said that leave campaigners want "a new, modern Britain with a modern government and society that reflects this".
I keep hearing "we want our democracy back!"
Well the British version of democracy in it's current form is hardly a shining light IMHO. Un-elected Lords dictating what laws will be allowed based on their will.
This can be seen in all it's glory with the blood sports bans:
Dog, cock fighting - non gentry - prohibited in 1895 Fox hunting - very gentry - finally 2004
Nope, not for me, not a modern method of democracy.
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