| Elephant in the room 01:26 - Jun 24 with 14048 views | Daley_Lama |
2 hours ago you could get 8/1 on a leave vote, now it is 6/4
First 8 results
N Ire: 1 borough - stay
Scotland : 3 boroughs - stay
England : 4 boroughs - leave
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| Elephant in the room on 13:45 - Jun 24 with 1590 views | lurker |
| Elephant in the room on 13:20 - Jun 24 by olympicdale |
We'll be perfectly fine with Borris/Farage/Gove in charge (!) I just hope this does not give Trump supporters more incentive to think he can win his election, thought we were fcked now...
This vote is a vote for fear. We are a divided country, the younger people voting to keep in and have a more stable future, where as the older people are voting for the unknown. This is a different world to before we joined the EU, and wanting to hark back to those times is a dangerous move. There is no doubt that we are better off being part of the bigger system, the EU has been good for the UK, it is just fear that has brought us out. Democracy works with what people believe in, for good and bad, this will be evident in years to come. The grass is not always greener, its how you water it. [Post edited 24 Jun 2016 13:23]
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It's fair to say that the fear factor was played to the limit by both sides during campaigning |  | | |
| Elephant in the room on 13:54 - Jun 24 with 1552 views | olympicdale |
| Elephant in the room on 13:45 - Jun 24 by lurker |
It's fair to say that the fear factor was played to the limit by both sides during campaigning |
There was a lot of scaremongering on both sides, but at the end of the day, people have voted on fear of foreign invasion. Spare a thought for the "immigrants are taking all our jobs" people, they actually have to work now, God help 'em |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 13:56 - Jun 24 with 1550 views | roccydaleian |
| Elephant in the room on 13:45 - Jun 24 by lurker |
It's fair to say that the fear factor was played to the limit by both sides during campaigning |
Correct and Farage will have no power or say on what will happen, that'll be down to the government. |  | | |
| Elephant in the room on 14:03 - Jun 24 with 1530 views | tony_roch975 |
Possibly cos they know their Canute - you can no more stop progress than the tide; there's no return to the 1950's England of the Morris Minor and Polio; they welcome computerisation, co-operating and the opportunity to work anywhere in the world and they aren't fearful of foreigners. The problem is all Governments for decades past have put profits above people and so failed to put in place ways of easing the pain of globalisation and, in pain, the working class have screamed - we don't get any benefits and you haven't listened to us. |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 14:07 - Jun 24 with 1524 views | lurker |
Fair enough.
We'll take Gatwick (since it's situated outside the London Borough) and shoot down any unauthorised flights entering our airspace out of Heathrow to the continent. Put snipers on the QE2 bridge and landlock the buggers! Jellied Eel prices will inflate beyond control leading to mass Hank-marvation of London citizens. Once they are all dead, it's a simple stroll into town for some good old fashioned plundering!
Sound good to you Tory/Student boy? [Post edited 24 Jun 2016 14:08]
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| Elephant in the room on 14:09 - Jun 24 with 1515 views | HK_Dale |
| Elephant in the room on 13:54 - Jun 24 by olympicdale |
There was a lot of scaremongering on both sides, but at the end of the day, people have voted on fear of foreign invasion. Spare a thought for the "immigrants are taking all our jobs" people, they actually have to work now, God help 'em |
While that's a subjective assertion you have made, I do think the immigration point is perhaps the strongest point the Leave campaign had. This got over simplified and consequently mismanaged.
The key point on immigration for me is that because there is no government that cannot say they will not reduce and control immigration, the UK actively penalizes itself. What I mean by this is that, because the government cannot reduce migration from the EU, they are forced to look at non-EU migration and more specifically those who apply through the formal channels. Resulting in policies that alienate some of the brightest global talent and prevents them from becoming working members of society, a good example of this is removing post study work visas. Theoretically the immigration system for an independent UK should be able to be flexed to support whatever requirements we have within the workforce. [Post edited 24 Jun 2016 14:13]
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| Elephant in the room on 14:31 - Jun 24 with 1435 views | D_Alien |
| Elephant in the room on 14:03 - Jun 24 by tony_roch975 |
Possibly cos they know their Canute - you can no more stop progress than the tide; there's no return to the 1950's England of the Morris Minor and Polio; they welcome computerisation, co-operating and the opportunity to work anywhere in the world and they aren't fearful of foreigners. The problem is all Governments for decades past have put profits above people and so failed to put in place ways of easing the pain of globalisation and, in pain, the working class have screamed - we don't get any benefits and you haven't listened to us. |
I'm assuming you're aware that the real story of King Canute on the beach was to demonstrate the limitations of human power - rather than the opposite?
The real Little Englanders are coming out in force now - those who think that remaining part of a stale, undemocratic EU - an institution from the 1950's - would constitute a viable future for our country, rather than as a nation within the wider world, unfettered by the failures of European states to progress. |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 14:32 - Jun 24 with 1428 views | Daley_Lama |
Debate I have had with colleagues has prioritised as follows, so I personally do not think it was exclusive that immigration was the key issue.
1. Economy
2. Sovereignty
3. Immigration
For me, David Cameron lost this when the re-negotiations with the EU failed to deliver anything of real note, despite the impending referendum and mood in this country.
This failure could be taken one of three ways, all of which was positive for the remain campaign.
1. DC was not arguing a strong case for change as he did not believe in a strong case for change
2. The UK was not in a position to argue a strong case for change as the UK does not have the influence to effect change
3. The EU leadership were not willing or able to grant change due to it's structure and nature.
Which ever way you took it, the leave argument that the EU was power heavy, inflexible and out of touch with the UK public was played out in the very instance that the remain campaign had planned to safeguard the future of the UK in the EU.
I've had Euronews on rather than BBC/ITV today as I wanted the European opinion on this.
The general mood from Senior Europeans is one of anger towards the UK, Donald Tusk, Jean-Claude Junker both as good as ticking us off.
Merkel and Hollande have both spoken and both have said that the EU has to change to stay united, it's the only hope for it to remain together.
For the UK, that change will come too late. | |
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| Elephant in the room on 15:09 - Jun 24 with 1356 views | pioneer |
The map of how areas voted tells it all - a deeply divided country which is the outcome of 40+ years of politicians treating the electorate as fodder.
The average working man and woman in the post industrial age have been ignored.
Quite ironic that Scotland's wholehearted vote to remain is matched only by London - there is a marriage made in hell.
We keep being told the old voted for exit the young to remain - if its a secret ballot how can they say this other than through exit polls that were as usual inaccurate. The regional picture is far more telling than some made-up figures on demographics. | | | |
| Elephant in the room on 15:14 - Jun 24 with 1339 views | KenBoon |
We can make a fortune selling them water. |  | | |
| Elephant in the room on 16:21 - Jun 24 with 1230 views | DaleiLama |
| Elephant in the room on 14:09 - Jun 24 by HK_Dale |
While that's a subjective assertion you have made, I do think the immigration point is perhaps the strongest point the Leave campaign had. This got over simplified and consequently mismanaged.
The key point on immigration for me is that because there is no government that cannot say they will not reduce and control immigration, the UK actively penalizes itself. What I mean by this is that, because the government cannot reduce migration from the EU, they are forced to look at non-EU migration and more specifically those who apply through the formal channels. Resulting in policies that alienate some of the brightest global talent and prevents them from becoming working members of society, a good example of this is removing post study work visas. Theoretically the immigration system for an independent UK should be able to be flexed to support whatever requirements we have within the workforce. [Post edited 24 Jun 2016 14:13]
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Not aimed at you HKD, just how we are perceived by some overseas! |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 16:27 - Jun 24 with 1217 views | 49thseason |
Apologies if this is a bit long, it's been gestating for a long time....
I have been sucking up the EU nonsense for the last 43 years having voted no in 1975 . I voted out yesterday on the basis that this is probably a last opportunity to press the re-set button.
Since 1945, our country has prioritised investment in welfare ahead of real investment in infrastructure and industry. The country was exhausted at the end of the war and returning , victorious, troops wanted to be repaid for their efforts, housing was dreadful, roads were already inadequate and heavy industry was not deemed a priority compared with building council estates and developing a National Health Service. Essentially, we sat back and thought that as victors it was job done.
In the intervening 70 years, just about every country involved in WW2 has developed their economy faster and more purposefully than the UK. The UK rich have become too rich and the poor allowed to become poorer and in some cases indolent. Wrapped in the benefits comfort-blanket, there was no imperative to change anything. Internal UK politics has become polarised with little common intent. For the last 40 years or so many UK failings have been blamed on the EU , in some cases correctly and too often because the other option was deemed too hard. The fact that we export comparatively so little is a condemnation of all those years of policy switching and spiteful wastage of resources.
So now we are on our own, with a unique opportunity to forge new alliances and mend old ones. Business needs real investment that in return should be translated into better services, infrastructure and R&D. For example, by backing UK biotech and pharma companies we can shave future billions from the NHS bill. By properly funding R&D we can develop products that the world wants to buy and we should take a shareholding in those new businesses like the Norwegians have in their North Sea Oil and build a National Sovereign Fund which only invests for the future (currently worth about £150,000 for every man woman and child in Norway - $900 Bn).
It may well feel as though we are trying to kick start a Jumbo jet at the moment but if we simply carry on doing things the way we have done them for the last 70 years we will get what we always got, envy, division, massive gaps between haves and have nots, underfunded essential services, shoestring budgets for local authorities and cheeseparing to make the books balance. The magic money tree of European Money never existed, it was always our money in the first place and we now need to spend it more wisely so that investment begets tangible, long-term, sustainable benefits.
I know some younger voters think we oldies have sold them out, but to be fair, we were the ones lied to all those years ago, we know there is a better future when we are in charge of our own destiny and the occasional inconvenience of queueing at the French border with your UK passport, or filling in a few more forms when you import or export will soon seem as normal as it did pre EU. We now need to roll up our sleeves and start engaging with the rest of the world, we have much to sell and that they want to buy from us and vice versa.
As a simple example, we are currently obliged to buy Bananas from central America, it took the EU 20 years to negotiate a deal which involves the producers paying a tariff to the EU of £88 a tonne (8.8p per kilo) - a kilo in Tesco is 68p or 59p without the tariff. The Carribean will sell Bananas to us for fun with no tariff just like they always used to before the EU got involved, the same for NZ Lamb, South African wine, Australian Beef etc. and in return, we will be free to sell them a myriad of UK products and services.
I very much doubt the EU will see the end of 2020 and the Euro may not last that long. Being out when it all goes elbows up may prove to be the best decision ever. In 5 years time , I guarantee, you will wonder why we ever got involved in the EU in the first place. |  | | |
| Elephant in the room on 16:47 - Jun 24 with 1158 views | D_Alien |
We've already had Jean-Claude Juncker telling us not to delay our exit plans
These stuffed-up unelected bureaucrats just don't get it do they?
WE'LL DO IT IN OUR OWN GOOD TIME, THANKYOU
Do one, Jean-Claude. We don't have to listen to you anymore  | |
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| Elephant in the room on 16:49 - Jun 24 with 1147 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Elephant in the room on 16:27 - Jun 24 by 49thseason |
Apologies if this is a bit long, it's been gestating for a long time....
I have been sucking up the EU nonsense for the last 43 years having voted no in 1975 . I voted out yesterday on the basis that this is probably a last opportunity to press the re-set button.
Since 1945, our country has prioritised investment in welfare ahead of real investment in infrastructure and industry. The country was exhausted at the end of the war and returning , victorious, troops wanted to be repaid for their efforts, housing was dreadful, roads were already inadequate and heavy industry was not deemed a priority compared with building council estates and developing a National Health Service. Essentially, we sat back and thought that as victors it was job done.
In the intervening 70 years, just about every country involved in WW2 has developed their economy faster and more purposefully than the UK. The UK rich have become too rich and the poor allowed to become poorer and in some cases indolent. Wrapped in the benefits comfort-blanket, there was no imperative to change anything. Internal UK politics has become polarised with little common intent. For the last 40 years or so many UK failings have been blamed on the EU , in some cases correctly and too often because the other option was deemed too hard. The fact that we export comparatively so little is a condemnation of all those years of policy switching and spiteful wastage of resources.
So now we are on our own, with a unique opportunity to forge new alliances and mend old ones. Business needs real investment that in return should be translated into better services, infrastructure and R&D. For example, by backing UK biotech and pharma companies we can shave future billions from the NHS bill. By properly funding R&D we can develop products that the world wants to buy and we should take a shareholding in those new businesses like the Norwegians have in their North Sea Oil and build a National Sovereign Fund which only invests for the future (currently worth about £150,000 for every man woman and child in Norway - $900 Bn).
It may well feel as though we are trying to kick start a Jumbo jet at the moment but if we simply carry on doing things the way we have done them for the last 70 years we will get what we always got, envy, division, massive gaps between haves and have nots, underfunded essential services, shoestring budgets for local authorities and cheeseparing to make the books balance. The magic money tree of European Money never existed, it was always our money in the first place and we now need to spend it more wisely so that investment begets tangible, long-term, sustainable benefits.
I know some younger voters think we oldies have sold them out, but to be fair, we were the ones lied to all those years ago, we know there is a better future when we are in charge of our own destiny and the occasional inconvenience of queueing at the French border with your UK passport, or filling in a few more forms when you import or export will soon seem as normal as it did pre EU. We now need to roll up our sleeves and start engaging with the rest of the world, we have much to sell and that they want to buy from us and vice versa.
As a simple example, we are currently obliged to buy Bananas from central America, it took the EU 20 years to negotiate a deal which involves the producers paying a tariff to the EU of £88 a tonne (8.8p per kilo) - a kilo in Tesco is 68p or 59p without the tariff. The Carribean will sell Bananas to us for fun with no tariff just like they always used to before the EU got involved, the same for NZ Lamb, South African wine, Australian Beef etc. and in return, we will be free to sell them a myriad of UK products and services.
I very much doubt the EU will see the end of 2020 and the Euro may not last that long. Being out when it all goes elbows up may prove to be the best decision ever. In 5 years time , I guarantee, you will wonder why we ever got involved in the EU in the first place. |
well i for one believe bananas, australian wine etc have never been cheaper, that is the market operating. As for funds for the future, if we hadnt given away our oil and gas,utilities,rail, post office etc, the profits for these could already be driving investment, instead they were sold cheap, to keep the bankers, tories etc happy. The rich have never been richer, the tragedy for people who have voted out because they felt traditional party politics has bypassed them, is that the same right wingers and banks will still be in charge, and there will be no money for services etc, as that buffoon Farage has already said this morning. The back to the 70's racism this campaign has unleashed, will be hard to deal with now. More division to come |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 17:18 - Jun 24 with 1077 views | 1mark1 |
| Elephant in the room on 16:47 - Jun 24 by D_Alien |
We've already had Jean-Claude Juncker telling us not to delay our exit plans
These stuffed-up unelected bureaucrats just don't get it do they?
WE'LL DO IT IN OUR OWN GOOD TIME, THANKYOU
Do one, Jean-Claude. We don't have to listen to you anymore |
But to be fair people have voted to get out. Why delay leaving something you have said you want to leave? |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 17:24 - Jun 24 with 1058 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Elephant in the room on 16:47 - Jun 24 by D_Alien |
We've already had Jean-Claude Juncker telling us not to delay our exit plans
These stuffed-up unelected bureaucrats just don't get it do they?
WE'LL DO IT IN OUR OWN GOOD TIME, THANKYOU
Do one, Jean-Claude. We don't have to listen to you anymore |
if the scots had voted to leave the uk,(which they now will) we surely would have said the same to sturgeon, youve decided love, now do one right now | |
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| Elephant in the room on 17:30 - Jun 24 with 1038 views | D_Alien |
| Elephant in the room on 17:18 - Jun 24 by 1mark1 |
But to be fair people have voted to get out. Why delay leaving something you have said you want to leave? |
The point is, we'll do it our way, not the way we've been told
There's a process to follow (article 50) but we're entitled to wait until new leadership is in place to allow the next PM to set the pace
The attitude of Juncker and his ilk is as responsible as any other factor for the Brexit vote
[Post edited 24 Jun 2016 17:35]
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| Elephant in the room on 17:38 - Jun 24 with 1014 views | D_Alien |
| Elephant in the room on 17:24 - Jun 24 by rochdaleriddler |
if the scots had voted to leave the uk,(which they now will) we surely would have said the same to sturgeon, youve decided love, now do one right now |
You couldn't be more wrong. Just because you have that attitude doesn't mean those responsible for the process would.
In fact, how the EU conducts itself now will tell us a lot more about the club we've elected to leave. | |
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| Elephant in the room on 18:07 - Jun 24 with 960 views | DaleiLama |
| Elephant in the room on 17:38 - Jun 24 by D_Alien |
You couldn't be more wrong. Just because you have that attitude doesn't mean those responsible for the process would.
In fact, how the EU conducts itself now will tell us a lot more about the club we've elected to leave. |
Any maybe influence whether other club members join us, stop paying their subs and give Brussels the bird. | |
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| Elephant in the room on 18:15 - Jun 24 with 947 views | R17ALE |
| Elephant in the room on 16:27 - Jun 24 by 49thseason |
Apologies if this is a bit long, it's been gestating for a long time....
I have been sucking up the EU nonsense for the last 43 years having voted no in 1975 . I voted out yesterday on the basis that this is probably a last opportunity to press the re-set button.
Since 1945, our country has prioritised investment in welfare ahead of real investment in infrastructure and industry. The country was exhausted at the end of the war and returning , victorious, troops wanted to be repaid for their efforts, housing was dreadful, roads were already inadequate and heavy industry was not deemed a priority compared with building council estates and developing a National Health Service. Essentially, we sat back and thought that as victors it was job done.
In the intervening 70 years, just about every country involved in WW2 has developed their economy faster and more purposefully than the UK. The UK rich have become too rich and the poor allowed to become poorer and in some cases indolent. Wrapped in the benefits comfort-blanket, there was no imperative to change anything. Internal UK politics has become polarised with little common intent. For the last 40 years or so many UK failings have been blamed on the EU , in some cases correctly and too often because the other option was deemed too hard. The fact that we export comparatively so little is a condemnation of all those years of policy switching and spiteful wastage of resources.
So now we are on our own, with a unique opportunity to forge new alliances and mend old ones. Business needs real investment that in return should be translated into better services, infrastructure and R&D. For example, by backing UK biotech and pharma companies we can shave future billions from the NHS bill. By properly funding R&D we can develop products that the world wants to buy and we should take a shareholding in those new businesses like the Norwegians have in their North Sea Oil and build a National Sovereign Fund which only invests for the future (currently worth about £150,000 for every man woman and child in Norway - $900 Bn).
It may well feel as though we are trying to kick start a Jumbo jet at the moment but if we simply carry on doing things the way we have done them for the last 70 years we will get what we always got, envy, division, massive gaps between haves and have nots, underfunded essential services, shoestring budgets for local authorities and cheeseparing to make the books balance. The magic money tree of European Money never existed, it was always our money in the first place and we now need to spend it more wisely so that investment begets tangible, long-term, sustainable benefits.
I know some younger voters think we oldies have sold them out, but to be fair, we were the ones lied to all those years ago, we know there is a better future when we are in charge of our own destiny and the occasional inconvenience of queueing at the French border with your UK passport, or filling in a few more forms when you import or export will soon seem as normal as it did pre EU. We now need to roll up our sleeves and start engaging with the rest of the world, we have much to sell and that they want to buy from us and vice versa.
As a simple example, we are currently obliged to buy Bananas from central America, it took the EU 20 years to negotiate a deal which involves the producers paying a tariff to the EU of £88 a tonne (8.8p per kilo) - a kilo in Tesco is 68p or 59p without the tariff. The Carribean will sell Bananas to us for fun with no tariff just like they always used to before the EU got involved, the same for NZ Lamb, South African wine, Australian Beef etc. and in return, we will be free to sell them a myriad of UK products and services.
I very much doubt the EU will see the end of 2020 and the Euro may not last that long. Being out when it all goes elbows up may prove to be the best decision ever. In 5 years time , I guarantee, you will wonder why we ever got involved in the EU in the first place. |
Good post. I enjoyed reading that.
I'm being a bit thick here but what does R&D stand for?
It's not Rushden and Diamonds is it? |  |
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| Elephant in the room on 18:18 - Jun 24 with 944 views | 1mark1 |
| Elephant in the room on 17:30 - Jun 24 by D_Alien |
The point is, we'll do it our way, not the way we've been told
There's a process to follow (article 50) but we're entitled to wait until new leadership is in place to allow the next PM to set the pace
The attitude of Juncker and his ilk is as responsible as any other factor for the Brexit vote
[Post edited 24 Jun 2016 17:35]
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Yes I know about article 50. I also know that like the referendum itself, the move towards article 50 and the UK beginning moving towards so called independence , is going to have to play second fiddle to the Tories infighting.
Instead of getting on with the job, and making plans to carry out the wishes of the British public, Cameron is failing in his duty as Prime Minister by abdicating from his job, and insisting that they have a leadership election. This despite him saying he would carry on as PM whatever the result, and being given the thumbs up to carry on by the leaders of Brexit-Bojo, Gove and Stuart. So basically, there is going to be more un necessary waiting to get on with the job of planning to leave, which could well lead to more problems in the markets, which of course might lead to ordinary people losing money or even their jobs.
Cameron has had six years of negotiating with the EU ministers, leaders etc, so he is in the know how to deal with them, and should have been part of the negotiations, for at least the first couple or so years, until his previously planned exit of being leader in 2019. By the way I am not saying he has been successful in his previous negotiations with these people, but neither has any of the potential other leaders of the Tories. Obviously, it will be Civil Servants that carry out most of the negotiations, but they need political leadership. | |
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| Elephant in the room on 18:19 - Jun 24 with 943 views | 1mark1 |
| Elephant in the room on 18:15 - Jun 24 by R17ALE |
Good post. I enjoyed reading that.
I'm being a bit thick here but what does R&D stand for?
It's not Rushden and Diamonds is it? |
R a D =research and development | |
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| Elephant in the room on 18:21 - Jun 24 with 938 views | Frog |
| Elephant in the room on 18:15 - Jun 24 by R17ALE |
Good post. I enjoyed reading that.
I'm being a bit thick here but what does R&D stand for?
It's not Rushden and Diamonds is it? |
not read it all but guessing research and development |  | | |
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