| Academy 08:15 - May 3 with 1951 views | cocklebreath |
Anyone else worried Sport Republic/Rasmus are looking to get rid of the academy?
Lots of people leaving and I’m sure I heard something about Brentford not having one?
The signings of Man City kids also suggests we’d given up on our own youngsters. Lots of talk of really good youngsters but hardly had a player from the academy in the team this season.
Hopefully I’m wrong. |  |
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| Academy on 08:26 - May 3 with 1920 views | PatfromPoole |
Pretty unlikely given that Jason Wilcox is the new director of football, and his past involvement in City’s academy. |  |
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| Academy on 08:32 - May 3 with 1908 views | cocklebreath |
| Academy on 08:26 - May 3 by PatfromPoole |
Pretty unlikely given that Jason Wilcox is the new director of football, and his past involvement in City’s academy. |
Good point. Close the thread | |
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| Academy on 09:03 - May 3 with 1874 views | PatfromPoole |
| Academy on 08:32 - May 3 by cocklebreath |
Good point. Close the thread |
Do you want Nick to sew it up? | |
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| Academy on 11:32 - May 3 with 1795 views | Ifonly |
The academy has become a total non event. Brentford changed their fortunes around when they closed theirs and used the money on transfers instead. These days it seems that when we do see some talent then City or Chelsea will take them off us cheaply anyway.
But next season is a chance for the academy to show its worth. These days, you can't take someone out of the academy and put them in the PL unless they are exceptional. The gap is too big. But maybe you can still do it in the Championship. |  | | |
| Academy on 11:51 - May 3 with 1779 views | SaintNick |
| Academy on 11:32 - May 3 by Ifonly |
The academy has become a total non event. Brentford changed their fortunes around when they closed theirs and used the money on transfers instead. These days it seems that when we do see some talent then City or Chelsea will take them off us cheaply anyway.
But next season is a chance for the academy to show its worth. These days, you can't take someone out of the academy and put them in the PL unless they are exceptional. The gap is too big. But maybe you can still do it in the Championship. |
Throughout the years i have been supporting Saints the idea is that you are lucky if you get 1 player every 3 seasons that becomes a first team regular, there are obviously boom and bust periods.
Overall though the aim is to make the academy pay for itself by the sale of players, that is the case whether you are Saints or Man City it is just on different scales. |  |
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| Academy on 12:32 - May 3 with 1738 views | Ifonly |
| Academy on 11:51 - May 3 by SaintNick |
Throughout the years i have been supporting Saints the idea is that you are lucky if you get 1 player every 3 seasons that becomes a first team regular, there are obviously boom and bust periods.
Overall though the aim is to make the academy pay for itself by the sale of players, that is the case whether you are Saints or Man City it is just on different scales. |
I don't think it does pay for itself though. The average academy costs £6m pa to run. Let's say it was successful and achieved your aim of producing 1 exceptional player every 3 years. Let's say that was Romeo Lavia. He cost us £10.5m. That would add up to a loss of £7.5m every 3 years, a loss of £2.5m every year. Yes we get a few quid by selling someone to Shrewsbury every now and again, but that's peanuts. Most of the youngsters are just released.
If we spent that £2.5m on scouting and player assessment I think it would be better spent. That's where Brentford and Brighton have made giant steps forward. Ideally with SR, you'd think they want both, but they do need to improve the scouting. You can't blame them for the academy failing to produce but the scouting seems to have largely failed and needs sorting.
The big 6 clubs can make money from the academy because they nick the best players out of other people's. That's why Brentford closed theirs, because the big London clubs kept stealing their players. We're not in that league and the current system doesn't seem to be working for us. | | | |
| Academy on 14:30 - May 3 with 1669 views | Butty101 |
I know someone whos son plays for our U18 at the moment. We have some decent youngsters but they know they wont get a chance. The boy in question has turned down a decent offer from Saints because the pathway is blocked. |  |
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| Academy on 15:16 - May 3 with 1642 views | Berber |
| Academy on 14:30 - May 3 by Butty101 |
I know someone whos son plays for our U18 at the moment. We have some decent youngsters but they know they wont get a chance. The boy in question has turned down a decent offer from Saints because the pathway is blocked. |
If the academy is a pathway to regular championship level football, then it still has a lot of merit. Turning down academy chances is a risky approach. Just look how many never make it right the way through. Walking away isn’t the answer IMHO. |  | | |
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| Academy on 15:21 - May 3 with 1637 views | cocklebreath |
| Academy on 15:16 - May 3 by Berber |
If the academy is a pathway to regular championship level football, then it still has a lot of merit. Turning down academy chances is a risky approach. Just look how many never make it right the way through. Walking away isn’t the answer IMHO. |
What should they do then? Hope they might get 5 minutes in a league cup game when they’re 20? I don’t blame them for going elsewhere | |
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| Academy on 22:36 - May 4 with 1337 views | SaintNick |
| Academy on 12:32 - May 3 by Ifonly |
I don't think it does pay for itself though. The average academy costs £6m pa to run. Let's say it was successful and achieved your aim of producing 1 exceptional player every 3 years. Let's say that was Romeo Lavia. He cost us £10.5m. That would add up to a loss of £7.5m every 3 years, a loss of £2.5m every year. Yes we get a few quid by selling someone to Shrewsbury every now and again, but that's peanuts. Most of the youngsters are just released.
If we spent that £2.5m on scouting and player assessment I think it would be better spent. That's where Brentford and Brighton have made giant steps forward. Ideally with SR, you'd think they want both, but they do need to improve the scouting. You can't blame them for the academy failing to produce but the scouting seems to have largely failed and needs sorting.
The big 6 clubs can make money from the academy because they nick the best players out of other people's. That's why Brentford closed theirs, because the big London clubs kept stealing their players. We're not in that league and the current system doesn't seem to be working for us. |
Lavia wasnt an academy player so that is not a good example.
Lets try a couple assuming it costs £6 million to run
Season 2018/19 Matt Target £18 million, Sam Gallaagher £6 million, total £24 million £18 million profit
Season 2019/2020 No significant academy transfers out
Season 20/21 we sell Harrison Reed for £6 million break even
Season 2021/22 Hesketh/ Johnson/Jankewitz/Slattery all sold for nominal fees Break even
Total for the last 4 years Academy cost £24 million, transfers out £36 million so £10 million profit over 4 years..
This summer could see it really bring in the bucks, JWP £40 million , Nathan Tella £20 million, so potential £60 million profit
If we take the five years 2013-18
2014 Lallana £25 million, Shaw £27 million, Chambers £16 million, Total £68 million
Ill leave it there, over the past 9 years we have brought in £114 million from academy players and it would have cost around £54 million and i havent even factored in Morgan Schneiderlin who was signed as a youth for £1 million
Without the academy we would not have prospered in 2013/14 and in selling those players funded the success under Ronald Koeman.
The academy is central and essential to clubs outside of the now Big 7 | |
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| Academy on 07:20 - May 5 with 1237 views | Butty101 |
| Academy on 22:36 - May 4 by SaintNick |
Lavia wasnt an academy player so that is not a good example.
Lets try a couple assuming it costs £6 million to run
Season 2018/19 Matt Target £18 million, Sam Gallaagher £6 million, total £24 million £18 million profit
Season 2019/2020 No significant academy transfers out
Season 20/21 we sell Harrison Reed for £6 million break even
Season 2021/22 Hesketh/ Johnson/Jankewitz/Slattery all sold for nominal fees Break even
Total for the last 4 years Academy cost £24 million, transfers out £36 million so £10 million profit over 4 years..
This summer could see it really bring in the bucks, JWP £40 million , Nathan Tella £20 million, so potential £60 million profit
If we take the five years 2013-18
2014 Lallana £25 million, Shaw £27 million, Chambers £16 million, Total £68 million
Ill leave it there, over the past 9 years we have brought in £114 million from academy players and it would have cost around £54 million and i havent even factored in Morgan Schneiderlin who was signed as a youth for £1 million
Without the academy we would not have prospered in 2013/14 and in selling those players funded the success under Ronald Koeman.
The academy is central and essential to clubs outside of the now Big 7 |
Sam Gallagher was signed as an 18yearold from Plymouth. Likewise Tells was 18 and signed from Arsenal so not part of our Youth accademy .
Jake Hesketh left when his contract expired, so actually would have cost us money with loyalty bonus! 20/21 would have brought 500k tops.
You were talking about 3 year cycles , since 2020 (this seasons transfer window is done) we have brought in 9 mill (jay jay Morgan to Chelsea was about £3mill.
) ,So it’s lost 9mill. | |
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| Academy on 11:02 - May 5 with 1178 views | Ifonly |
| Academy on 22:36 - May 4 by SaintNick |
Lavia wasnt an academy player so that is not a good example.
Lets try a couple assuming it costs £6 million to run
Season 2018/19 Matt Target £18 million, Sam Gallaagher £6 million, total £24 million £18 million profit
Season 2019/2020 No significant academy transfers out
Season 20/21 we sell Harrison Reed for £6 million break even
Season 2021/22 Hesketh/ Johnson/Jankewitz/Slattery all sold for nominal fees Break even
Total for the last 4 years Academy cost £24 million, transfers out £36 million so £10 million profit over 4 years..
This summer could see it really bring in the bucks, JWP £40 million , Nathan Tella £20 million, so potential £60 million profit
If we take the five years 2013-18
2014 Lallana £25 million, Shaw £27 million, Chambers £16 million, Total £68 million
Ill leave it there, over the past 9 years we have brought in £114 million from academy players and it would have cost around £54 million and i havent even factored in Morgan Schneiderlin who was signed as a youth for £1 million
Without the academy we would not have prospered in 2013/14 and in selling those players funded the success under Ronald Koeman.
The academy is central and essential to clubs outside of the now Big 7 |
The only way to answer the question is to ask: what would it cost to buy an exceptional academy product versus what would it take to produce one? That is the only way of answering the question of whether the academy is worth it financially.
By "exceptional academy product" I mean an exceptional player who is between academy and full debut. This is your "1 every 3 years" player. That is why I picked Romeo Lavia. The answer: £10.5 million to buy one and 3 years of academy costs, or £18m to produce one.
The players you pick were are not "academy" players. They were all players who had made debuts and proved themselves (or not) at that level. You claim we got £6m for Hesketh/ Johnson/Jankewitz/Slattery. We got nowhere near that amount and the reason is because they weren't able to make the jump. The reason we got good money for Targett was because by then he was a proven PL player. How much would we have got for him BEFORE he made his debut? Maybe 2 or 3 million at best. (Remember as well we lose a substantial amount from these sales for various fees).
That's the stage you have to value them at because that is when they are an academy product who has not increased their value by playing in the PL. Anything else is a false comparison. We will get far more than £10.5m for Lavia now, whoever he goes to, because he is now a proven PL player. He's a different product. We have taken the risk of giving him game time in the PL and our reward for that risk will be another 20 or 30 million above his purchase price. It's a risk because giving them game time means weakening your team and as we've seen, inviting relegation. With others, the risk didn't pay off. Whether the risks work out or not, the young player is a different product after a season of PL level experience. They're worth a lot more after that.
If you want to evaluate the product of an exceptional academy player you ask: what would it take to produce one versus what would it take to buy one. On the figures we have available, to buy one is £10m and to produce one is £18m. So, it's cheaper to buy. PLUS when you buy, you can buy in the positions you need. If they're your academy products you don't get that choice. When Targett came through we were well stocked at left back. If we could have bought an exceptional academy product, it would not have been a left back.
We will never again produce a crop of talent like Bale, Theo etc. The system is different now and works against us. It works for the bigger clubs now. They can take the Jimmy Jay Morgans of the world and leave us with a crop of average players who have little value. The only value is in the exceptional players. We would save money if we ditched the academy and bought their surplus like Tino, Lavia etc. Saving money isn't the only consideration but when you say the academy will pay for itself, you're very probably wrong. | | | |
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