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You'd think so from all the pompous pontification dominating the airwaves in the last few days. Pompous-Prat-in-Chief, Nick Clegg piled in with his fourpennorth today and in true Cleggy style managed to sway me right over onto the side of Evans. I had not given it much thought or had an opinion before - I wasn't that aware of Evans either as a footballer or a person - but I decided to read about the case.
From what I understand he went bed pissed wth a pissed-up 19 year old and sex took place - there was no physical violence. I wasn't there so i don't know the precise details. There was another person involved but he got off relatively mildly - Evans received a hefty jail term.
Now having served his fairly hefty sentence, he is being threatened with denial of his right to earn a living by continuing his career.
Now rape is a foul and terrible crime. However I have problem with some of these situations being described as 'rape'. Without being crass, when does 'persuasive and persistent seduction' carry over into 'rape'? I always thought it was when it was accompanied by force or violence to get your way. I am so glad I'm an old fart and was young when I was young in the 60s and 70s.
Since time immemorial women (and men) have woken up, taken one look at the head on the pillow next to them and instantly regretted the night before. Usually it has been logged under 'big mistake - not to be repeated' and then the person has just gone away and carried on with life. Je ne regrette rien. There was a song about it. Now all too often there is the cry of 'RAPE!' And the inevitable court case. As I say I'm talking generally and not specifically about the Evans case, but I am uneasy about the vilification that's taking place and I certainly see no reason why he should not return to his day job, - playing football.
Let all those who have not had a pissed-up one-night stand with a pissed-up bird, cast the first stone.
I'm now going to brace myself for the abuse!
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:43 - Oct 18 with 2018 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:21 - Oct 18 by Chief
lets be honest, she seems like a bit of a girl, we know that from the fact she liked the white powder (it was in her blood stream from nights before) and the weed.
Finishing work at half 12, then hitting the town alone an hour later? then being smashed pissed by half 3 and hanging round kebab shops alone, she must have been chucking them back.
theres no doubt Evans let himself into the room and had sex with her. no doubt about that. its not a nice or honourable thing to do. but its not illegal.
Seems it is
If your are a bit of a girl (she actually was separated from her friends), or drunk does it mean you are fair game for anyone to have a go, then all his mates turn up and take a turn
To bring it closer to home - check out Wind St after the A level results are out. One predator clearly told me he would not miss the potential harvest (I paraphrase) of course nothing illegal there!
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:48 - Oct 18 with 2007 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:43 - Oct 18 by Spratty
Seems it is
If your are a bit of a girl (she actually was separated from her friends), or drunk does it mean you are fair game for anyone to have a go, then all his mates turn up and take a turn
To bring it closer to home - check out Wind St after the A level results are out. One predator clearly told me he would not miss the potential harvest (I paraphrase) of course nothing illegal there!
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:28 - Oct 18 by Lohengrin
I don't have a clue as to what money she's had but here are some of her comments.
Edit: Link deleted.
[Post edited 18 Oct 2014 12:10]
"I don't have a clue as to what money she's had"
again suggesting she has had some, when there is no evidence of this at all.
Nor do the comments suggest she has had any payment.
The link I presume is from this American bloke who is identifying her publicly on the website link you give, so as well as being very questionable I think it is inadvisable to put that link on here.
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:56 - Oct 18 with 1981 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:50 - Oct 18 by Spratty
"I don't have a clue as to what money she's had"
again suggesting she has had some, when there is no evidence of this at all.
Nor do the comments suggest she has had any payment.
The link I presume is from this American bloke who is identifying her publicly on the website link you give, so as well as being very questionable I think it is inadvisable to put that link on here.
Reports in the press suggest that the victim has had to receive a new identity and move away from her home town, while Evans, apparently, is to be offered a new contract with Sheffield United worth half a million.
Who said crime doesn't pay eh?
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:57 - Oct 18 with 1981 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:48 - Oct 18 by Chief
she is fair game if shes up for it!
That depends on your definition of "up for it".
Warm drunk body laid out in a hotel room to which you let yourself in uninvited, having procured the key under false pretences?
OMG there are women begging for it in every hotel in the country - if their husband is there just nudge them over. Make sure it is a ground floor room though or your mates won't be able to video it.
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 12:09 - Oct 18 with 1943 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:50 - Oct 18 by Spratty
"I don't have a clue as to what money she's had"
again suggesting she has had some, when there is no evidence of this at all.
Nor do the comments suggest she has had any payment.
The link I presume is from this American bloke who is identifying her publicly on the website link you give, so as well as being very questionable I think it is inadvisable to put that link on here.
Thinking about it, you're probably right. I'll take it down.
An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 12:21 - Oct 18 with 1917 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:57 - Oct 18 by Spratty
That depends on your definition of "up for it".
Warm drunk body laid out in a hotel room to which you let yourself in uninvited, having procured the key under false pretences?
OMG there are women begging for it in every hotel in the country - if their husband is there just nudge them over. Make sure it is a ground floor room though or your mates won't be able to video it.
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 12:21 - Oct 18 by Chief
is there any evidence of any pre-planning then??
Not sure pre-planning is actually a factor in the case, but for interest I suppose you might point to a room being booked that was not required
or the text ‘I’ve got a bird’ by his pal and his resultant diversion to the hotel
the fact that his mates (brother and mate) knew what window it was and the curtains were opened initially to allow them to video
The fact she was seen to be drunk in video's (despite what his website says) and by the hotel porter and other witnesses.
The fact he procured a room key by deceit
The fact it was said he went in for a peek and did not know what to expect!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting it was said she was asked could Ched join in and she supposedly said "yeah" but each of them seeming claims it was they that asked her.
The fact that threesomes are not a new experience to him
The fact that his website blatantly misrepresents facts and holds up the help of an American who in addition to retrieving her deleted tweets from a backup server, clearly identifies her and posts pictures of her on his website (in contravention of her rights and importantly teaching other rape victims what they can expect if they complain).
However the full facts of the case are far from our fingertips and as I have said he was found guilty and appeal rejected on evidence other than that of the girl (who maintained she could remember nothing after the kebab shop to waking up alone in a bit of a state late the next morning).
As said it seems she has now lost her identity, family and friends because of the hate campaign from supporters of Ched and I imagine general internet trolls.
If you re not in the physical or mental state to consent, its rape . Simple.. If in doubt boys , leave it out and don't use drink as an excuse. It aint
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 13:53 - Oct 18 by Spratty
Not sure pre-planning is actually a factor in the case, but for interest I suppose you might point to a room being booked that was not required
or the text ‘I’ve got a bird’ by his pal and his resultant diversion to the hotel
the fact that his mates (brother and mate) knew what window it was and the curtains were opened initially to allow them to video
The fact she was seen to be drunk in video's (despite what his website says) and by the hotel porter and other witnesses.
The fact he procured a room key by deceit
The fact it was said he went in for a peek and did not know what to expect!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting it was said she was asked could Ched join in and she supposedly said "yeah" but each of them seeming claims it was they that asked her.
The fact that threesomes are not a new experience to him
The fact that his website blatantly misrepresents facts and holds up the help of an American who in addition to retrieving her deleted tweets from a backup server, clearly identifies her and posts pictures of her on his website (in contravention of her rights and importantly teaching other rape victims what they can expect if they complain).
However the full facts of the case are far from our fingertips and as I have said he was found guilty and appeal rejected on evidence other than that of the girl (who maintained she could remember nothing after the kebab shop to waking up alone in a bit of a state late the next morning).
As said it seems she has now lost her identity, family and friends because of the hate campaign from supporters of Ched and I imagine general internet trolls.
The actual evidence that convicted him, of course, was the testimony of him and his mate which described activities that are classed in law as rape. Something that the rape crisis centre have spoken of publicly when his family tried to contact them to run a 'poor Ched' campaign with them - they stated that they were happy with the way that the law was currently framed and given Ched Evans' own testimony (in conjunction with that of his mate) made him guilty under that law they doubted they would find any mutual ground. (His family are now spinning that as well of course, into a 'we wanted to work with them and they never contacted us about it' nonsense).
To be honest, as a woman this thread is sickening.We've had phrases such as 'up for it', 'fair game', intimations that some men believe it's OK to have sex with a woman if she's too drunk to be able to say no in a way that they find acceptable, too drunk to resist is fine - go for it, saying yes to one means saying yes to mates, filming it all is OK.
It's actually disgusting. I don't expect much from people that are so thick that they have posted the girl's name on this thread (it is illegal to do so you creep) and I can't say I'm surprised by the opinion of Mr Enlightened with his 'objectively it's not rape' (once we got past the double negatives) - no you moron, objectively it is rape since the evidence of the defendants themselves described rape and that is why he was convicted - the girl didn't say anything, but I am genuinely surprised that in 2014 there are so many men that believe this sort of behaviour is anything other than (a) illegal and (b) even leaving the law aside, utterly repugnant.
I see that we've now even strayed into 'she made money from it all' - how exactly? All of the newspapers said that at no time did she attempt to sell her story, she never brought a civil case and you don't make money from the criminal prosecution.
It sums up exactly what 'poor Ched' is about in the way that he and him scummy family have behaved in the hours since he was out. No remorse, no embarrassment, no hint of guilt that they have, through their constant smear campaign against the girl, forced her to moved away from her home and change her identity. But then I suppose that they wee too busy to feel any of those things since they were spending their time ordering a bouncy castle.
Thank God for the many men on here who do realise that rape is an appalling crime (and don't spend time trying to redefine rape to something they find acceptable).
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:39 - Oct 18 with 1829 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 11:16 - Oct 18 by Spratty
Tell it to the Judge and appeal court - I think the term convicted rapist has been mostly used.
"a fact she was raped is not verifiable and therefore objectively not true."
Following your statement of logic and the natural laws of logic you are indeed stating it is objectively not true that he did not rape her. So the claims of his website are false.
We could get into what constitutes reality, true and false, guilty and innocent. Or we could look at the actual meaning of the word rape in narrow and broad definition.
As I stated I think she has been consistent in her claim of not remembering anything after the kebab shop. Therefore the whole judgement depended on other evidence.
"Following your statement of logic and the natural laws of logic you are indeed stating it is objectively not true that he did not rape her. So the claims of his website are false."
That is true **if and only if** you selectively misquote my statement so as to completely alter the original meaning.
Naughty boy, Spratts.
Let us try again with a more neutral subject matter that you are unlikely to be as vicariously upset about:
I make the statement that "my car is white".
The only fact we can deduce from this is that I said my car is white. However, we can not infer as a fact that my car is actually white, without taking further steps to independently verify this.
Furthermore if by observation somebody spots a white car in my driveway, we can only infer as a fact that there was a white car in my driveway, not that it belonged to me. That said it could have been my car, but there is insufficient empirical data to categorically state that as a fact.
Conversely, if we agree that it is not a fact that my car is white, we can not infer from that it is say blue. Or grey, etc.
So moving back to square one, it is a fact that Evans was convicted in a court of law of rape. But we can not infer from this that it is a fact that he raped this girl.
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:29 - Oct 18 by londonlisa2001
The actual evidence that convicted him, of course, was the testimony of him and his mate which described activities that are classed in law as rape. Something that the rape crisis centre have spoken of publicly when his family tried to contact them to run a 'poor Ched' campaign with them - they stated that they were happy with the way that the law was currently framed and given Ched Evans' own testimony (in conjunction with that of his mate) made him guilty under that law they doubted they would find any mutual ground. (His family are now spinning that as well of course, into a 'we wanted to work with them and they never contacted us about it' nonsense).
To be honest, as a woman this thread is sickening.We've had phrases such as 'up for it', 'fair game', intimations that some men believe it's OK to have sex with a woman if she's too drunk to be able to say no in a way that they find acceptable, too drunk to resist is fine - go for it, saying yes to one means saying yes to mates, filming it all is OK.
It's actually disgusting. I don't expect much from people that are so thick that they have posted the girl's name on this thread (it is illegal to do so you creep) and I can't say I'm surprised by the opinion of Mr Enlightened with his 'objectively it's not rape' (once we got past the double negatives) - no you moron, objectively it is rape since the evidence of the defendants themselves described rape and that is why he was convicted - the girl didn't say anything, but I am genuinely surprised that in 2014 there are so many men that believe this sort of behaviour is anything other than (a) illegal and (b) even leaving the law aside, utterly repugnant.
I see that we've now even strayed into 'she made money from it all' - how exactly? All of the newspapers said that at no time did she attempt to sell her story, she never brought a civil case and you don't make money from the criminal prosecution.
It sums up exactly what 'poor Ched' is about in the way that he and him scummy family have behaved in the hours since he was out. No remorse, no embarrassment, no hint of guilt that they have, through their constant smear campaign against the girl, forced her to moved away from her home and change her identity. But then I suppose that they wee too busy to feel any of those things since they were spending their time ordering a bouncy castle.
Thank God for the many men on here who do realise that rape is an appalling crime (and don't spend time trying to redefine rape to something they find acceptable).
On the basis of this I would wager that hundreds if not thousands of rape cases occur every weekend in this country
I think you the outraged moral majority here and the provincial judiciary in this case are totally out of touch with what goes on practically on a daily basis in general, and with perhaps millions of people of both genders who are coked up out for a good night in particular.
Out of touch, powerless, and above all deeply fearful of a society you fail to comprehend and therefore increasingly fear, hence the highly predictable disgusted of Tumbridge Wells attitude.
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:39 - Oct 18 by Shaky
"Following your statement of logic and the natural laws of logic you are indeed stating it is objectively not true that he did not rape her. So the claims of his website are false."
That is true **if and only if** you selectively misquote my statement so as to completely alter the original meaning.
Naughty boy, Spratts.
Let us try again with a more neutral subject matter that you are unlikely to be as vicariously upset about:
I make the statement that "my car is white".
The only fact we can deduce from this is that I said my car is white. However, we can not infer as a fact that my car is actually white, without taking further steps to independently verify this.
Furthermore if by observation somebody spots a white car in my driveway, we can only infer as a fact that there was a white car in my driveway, not that it belonged to me. That said it could have been my car, but there is insufficient empirical data to categorically state that as a fact.
Conversely, if we agree that it is not a fact that my car is white, we can not infer from that it is say blue. Or grey, etc.
So moving back to square one, it is a fact that Evans was convicted in a court of law of rape. But we can not infer from this that it is a fact that he raped this girl.
his own description of events, and that of his mate convicted him since he failed to understand what constitutes rape under the law.
Therefore we can say both that he described rape (fact) someone else who was there described rape (fact) and he was convicted of rape (fact). As objective as it could be really don't you think?
The argument that he and his grubby family and friends are making simply shows that they actually disagree with the way that the rape law is framed, not that it wasn't rape as currently defined. And as part of it, they are trying every which way to show that the girl involved was something of a tart, (as you yourself also did) which may well be the case, but that actually doesn't alter her rights under any law.
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:56 - Oct 18 with 1788 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:54 - Oct 18 by londonlisa2001
his own description of events, and that of his mate convicted him since he failed to understand what constitutes rape under the law.
Therefore we can say both that he described rape (fact) someone else who was there described rape (fact) and he was convicted of rape (fact). As objective as it could be really don't you think?
The argument that he and his grubby family and friends are making simply shows that they actually disagree with the way that the rape law is framed, not that it wasn't rape as currently defined. And as part of it, they are trying every which way to show that the girl involved was something of a tart, (as you yourself also did) which may well be the case, but that actually doesn't alter her rights under any law.
You are wrong in fact.
This case hinges on the court's **opinion** that the girl was too drunk to consent to sex.
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:48 - Oct 18 by Shaky
On the basis of this I would wager that hundreds if not thousands of rape cases occur every weekend in this country
I think you the outraged moral majority here and the provincial judiciary in this case are totally out of touch with what goes on practically on a daily basis in general, and with perhaps millions of people of both genders who are coked up out for a good night in particular.
Out of touch, powerless, and above all deeply fearful of a society you fail to comprehend and therefore increasingly fear, hence the highly predictable disgusted of Tumbridge Wells attitude.
Oooh, you're so urban Shaky - so in touch with 'what's happening with the kids' aren't you?
So 'big city', so down with the drugs scene.
There remains a difference between 'coked up' people out for a good night and a man breaking in to a hotel room and raping a girl. The law realises this thankfully, irrespective of what some saddo middle aged man who fancies himself as a bit of a 'player' on the scene may think.
And I don't live in Tunbridge Wells (apologies for correcting your spelling) - I live in relatively central London, so not that provincial really. Which suburban commuter town do you live in Shaky, peering in to the bright lights of the big city, pretending you're hip, posting your 'underground' choons, talking of your drug baron friends while arranging birthday parties for your kids?
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 15:09 - Oct 18 with 1750 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 14:39 - Oct 18 by Shaky
"Following your statement of logic and the natural laws of logic you are indeed stating it is objectively not true that he did not rape her. So the claims of his website are false."
That is true **if and only if** you selectively misquote my statement so as to completely alter the original meaning.
Naughty boy, Spratts.
Let us try again with a more neutral subject matter that you are unlikely to be as vicariously upset about:
I make the statement that "my car is white".
The only fact we can deduce from this is that I said my car is white. However, we can not infer as a fact that my car is actually white, without taking further steps to independently verify this.
Furthermore if by observation somebody spots a white car in my driveway, we can only infer as a fact that there was a white car in my driveway, not that it belonged to me. That said it could have been my car, but there is insufficient empirical data to categorically state that as a fact.
Conversely, if we agree that it is not a fact that my car is white, we can not infer from that it is say blue. Or grey, etc.
So moving back to square one, it is a fact that Evans was convicted in a court of law of rape. But we can not infer from this that it is a fact that he raped this girl.
Ahhhh thanks for that Shakes it all becomes clear now (I do get a bit upset when logic is abused )
So based on your own logic it is indeed objectively NOT TRUE that HE DID NOT RAPE HER
But we cannot say for certain the colour of the taxi that transported him to the rape scene
Thank goodness that is agreed
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 15:21 - Oct 18 with 1731 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 15:09 - Oct 18 by Spratty
Ahhhh thanks for that Shakes it all becomes clear now (I do get a bit upset when logic is abused )
So based on your own logic it is indeed objectively NOT TRUE that HE DID NOT RAPE HER
But we cannot say for certain the colour of the taxi that transported him to the rape scene
Thank goodness that is agreed
That's very impressive Spratts, what you turning my single statement that the assertion it is a FACT that Evans raped the girl is false, into a binary statement.
That or deceitful and hypocritical.
And if you want to have another stab at this kindly cut out the double negatives. Just makes you sound like a mealy mouthed weasel, you see.
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 15:21 - Oct 18 by Shaky
That's very impressive Spratts, what you turning my single statement that the assertion it is a FACT that Evans raped the girl is false, into a binary statement.
That or deceitful and hypocritical.
And if you want to have another stab at this kindly cut out the double negatives. Just makes you sound like a mealy mouthed weasel, you see.
Yep sorry about the double negative.
Sometimes you have to sacrifice plain English to more clearly retain direct traceability to the logic source.
As far as a binary statement, it was you that raised the car
All I can say is if they do decide to take him back on, best leave the hospital visits out of his charitable work.
All those people laying in bed might lead to a major faux pas - especially with other people present and the cameras rolling.
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Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 15:39 - Oct 18 with 1698 views
Ched Evans - is he the evil incarnate? on 15:08 - Oct 18 by londonlisa2001
Oooh, you're so urban Shaky - so in touch with 'what's happening with the kids' aren't you?
So 'big city', so down with the drugs scene.
There remains a difference between 'coked up' people out for a good night and a man breaking in to a hotel room and raping a girl. The law realises this thankfully, irrespective of what some saddo middle aged man who fancies himself as a bit of a 'player' on the scene may think.
And I don't live in Tunbridge Wells (apologies for correcting your spelling) - I live in relatively central London, so not that provincial really. Which suburban commuter town do you live in Shaky, peering in to the bright lights of the big city, pretending you're hip, posting your 'underground' choons, talking of your drug baron friends while arranging birthday parties for your kids?
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