| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? 23:37 - Nov 11 with 12419 views | Lord_Bony |
Well Swansea City Counil own the land. A consortium of developers and the council built the stadium in 2005 at a cost of £26 million...upon further investigation the council have leased the ground to SCFC for a period of no less than 150 years!
So there is no danger of it being taken back in our lifetimes.
Feasibly the club could buy back off the council,who would be sympathetic to the cause for somewhere in the region of £15-20 million?
There would probably be a clause whereby we would have to give a good deal to The Ospreys and look after them so they may still enjoy there peppercorn rent they are currently paying.
The consequences of this would be very positive for the clubs future and a prime asset to own. [Post edited 11 Nov 2014 23:41]
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:27 - Nov 12 with 1859 views | Parlay |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:24 - Nov 12 by MattG |
Maybe it's just me but what really would be the point?
If we've got a 150 year lease and there is no objection in principle from Stadco to us expanding without actually owning the place outright then the only impact I can see of owning the Liberty is to increase our attractiveness to investors.
I can't see any genuine positives. |
It is certainly beneficial to own it. In a time where fair pay rules are coming into play, the more income a club has the stronger they are.
If we owned the stadium we could also have all the naming rights cash, rent from Ospreys, money from concerts etc, sponsorships the list is endless in terms of the money a stadium can generate. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:49 - Nov 12 with 1831 views | MattG |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:27 - Nov 12 by Parlay |
It is certainly beneficial to own it. In a time where fair pay rules are coming into play, the more income a club has the stronger they are.
If we owned the stadium we could also have all the naming rights cash, rent from Ospreys, money from concerts etc, sponsorships the list is endless in terms of the money a stadium can generate. |
That's me told - cheers!
I suppose it's a matter of balancing the increased revenue from the avenues you mention against the "threat" of undesirable investors taking an interest because of us owning the stadium. |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:35 - Nov 12 with 1782 views | somersetsimon |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:49 - Nov 12 by MattG |
That's me told - cheers!
I suppose it's a matter of balancing the increased revenue from the avenues you mention against the "threat" of undesirable investors taking an interest because of us owning the stadium. |
It's also a matter of balancing the increased revenue against the payment we'd have to make to buy the stadium. How many years would it take to get our return? |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:30 - Nov 12 with 1744 views | Gowerjack |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:27 - Nov 12 by Parlay |
It is certainly beneficial to own it. In a time where fair pay rules are coming into play, the more income a club has the stronger they are.
If we owned the stadium we could also have all the naming rights cash, rent from Ospreys, money from concerts etc, sponsorships the list is endless in terms of the money a stadium can generate. |
Yes
And of course the Liberty costs nothing to run....  |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:31 - Nov 12 with 1743 views | Lord_Bony |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:35 - Nov 12 by somersetsimon |
It's also a matter of balancing the increased revenue against the payment we'd have to make to buy the stadium. How many years would it take to get our return? |
Not that long if done correctly. If you add the savings and income and appreciation of the asset for example.
Yearly revenues from internationals,big stadium events such as motorcross,monster trucks,concerts etc
Rebranding and renaming the stadium.. couple of million there.
Savings of rent payments to council gaining rent revenues from the Ospreys.
The property value going up over the years...an appreciating asset.
Thats just for starters... | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:33 - Nov 12 with 1740 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:05 - Nov 12 by somersetsimon |
Does someone have an Idiots Guide to the Liberty Stadium deal? I've seen so many conflicting stories and it's all a bit confusing.
-I have a vague recollection from the past that there was some sort of grant funding associated with the initial building of the stadium that was only available if the capacity was below a certain figure. What was the real story?
-Swansea City council aren't known for throwing money around. I can't imagine them spending £27M without expecting a return at some point in the future. Is it really true that the 'rent' paid by the Swans and the Ospreys doesn't even cover the running costs? I would have thought that the council would charge enough to cover the running costs and pay off the building costs over, say, 25 years.
-I can understand the State Aid concerns if it was clear that the Swans and the Ospreys (as businesses) had effectively been subsidised by the council and hence had an unfair advantage over other similar businesses in other areas. Whatever happened to that EU investigation? |
the grants were only available for a stadium size of 20,000 (they managed to get away with a couple of hundred extra seats, which have gradually been increased to about 20,800 or so. The plans were for 25,000 seats but the grant was not available at that capacity, and no one else had any money to pay for the stadium without the grant.
The stadium was as you say built with money from the council, the grants (which were accessible through the football side of things, so although the Swans didn't give up money, our involvement led to this money being received). Also, the land on which the Vetch stood (owned by the council but leased to the club reverted back to the council, and the associated development of a retail park around the Liberty etc also resulted in money for the council.
The 'not covering our costs' bit is utter nonsense, manufactured by a succession of Cardiff fan sites / Wales online nonsense. What is true is that there is a formula used to calculate the income from each bit (Swans, Ospreys, Concerts etc etc) which is then used to cover all running costs of the stadium. Part of the running costs are a payment to the council (the lease payment if you like) for the ground.
All clubs that have a municipal stadium in Europe are being investigated if you want to call it that (the Wales Online certainly wanted to call it that), or checked if you want something less dramatic, to make sure that none of the commercial arrangements in any of these cases are giving them 'state support'. Clubs include those like Madrid / Man City etc etc. The check doesn't imply wrong doing (much to the disappointment of the Wales Online) but is just making sure that there is nothing untoward.
This whole 'own the stadium' bit is beyond me I'm afraid. The Swans, now being by far the senior party (which they weren't really at the start - for a few years the largest crowds at the Liberty were for rugby) will just make amendments / adjustments as necessary to the various Stadco agreements to ensure that we are receiving all of the additional income that we are generating (less additional costs for example of increased staffing in an extended ground). That's the way it works now - all this, 'we split it in 3' - no we don't.
The same will be the case for naming rights - of course it won't be split 3 ways - see that interesting article re Man City's ground - we would do the same sort of thing. Similarly with extra seats - we will receive the ticket money (as we do now) less the costs involved in running that extra bit. (We get everything above a certain number of attendees, and are way above that now, so we would get all the additional seat money).
I've seen the analogy on here a lot about 'you wouldn't pay for improvements for a rented flat' and that's right. But that's not what we have (unless you regard it as normal to have a binding rental agreement for 50 or 100 years or so). We effectively have a leasehold over the ground. Yes, it's not 'ours' as in we couldn't sell it, but we couldn't sell it anyway - if we sold it what would we play in? I guess it prevents in some ways us moving to a new stadium, but again, why would we do that. We know that the cost of an extra seat is approximately £1,500 for the new capacity. If we put in 12,000 new seats, it'll cost about £18m or so (the figs may have been updated now, but that's what they were working on before). That's £18m for what would be a 32,000 seater stadium - we're certainly not going to be able to build one for that from scratch, so why on earth would we move. That being the case, paying out millions to buy the stadium only really results in conference income / concerts etc etc, and we already get an amount of this - it would just mean getting the full amount.
I think there are better things for us to spend our money on than what would effectively be converting a leasehold to a freehold. If it doesn't warrant use of the limitless wealth of the owners of Man City to 'buy the ground' why would we do it?
I don't believe that the ownership of the Olympic stadium in Stratford is going to change when West Ham move in, so they won't own their ground either. AC Milan don't own theirs, or Roma, or loads of European teams. I have no idea (other than nonsense from Cardiff fans) why that remotely bothers anyone. |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:37 - Nov 12 with 1725 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:31 - Nov 12 by Lord_Bony |
Not that long if done correctly. If you add the savings and income and appreciation of the asset for example.
Yearly revenues from internationals,big stadium events such as motorcross,monster trucks,concerts etc
Rebranding and renaming the stadium.. couple of million there.
Savings of rent payments to council gaining rent revenues from the Ospreys.
The property value going up over the years...an appreciating asset.
Thats just for starters... |
there is actually not much of a close season for us to be fitting in all this 'monster trucks' stuff. Particularly since I would hope that the next few years will see the summer being used for stadium expansion.
naming of the stadium - we will get that money anyway (or virtually all of it). Property going up in value -what difference does that make? We can't sell it anyway -we'd have nowhere to play. And you can bet that the costs of building new are going up more quickly than the appreciation of a football stadium being used every week. | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:41 - Nov 12 with 1719 views | Gowerjack |
Lisa
Thank you that is an excellent post. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:56 - Nov 12 with 1703 views | monmouth |
Re Lisa's post. If there is no argument over the accountability for the 'extra revenue' and associated costs from the extended stadium, as you imply we would surely be out of our heads to buy it.
The only benefit of ownership that I can see in those circumstances is security against a loan and why would you want to do that as any exercise of the security would require a change of use. If and when Tan decides to sell his stadium (yes they do delude themselves it's 'theirs' don't they?), it won't be to play football in. Perhaps they'll be able to share Somerton Spitty or whatever, whilst we retain our secure lease. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:03 - Nov 12 with 1689 views | Uxbridge |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:56 - Nov 12 by monmouth |
Re Lisa's post. If there is no argument over the accountability for the 'extra revenue' and associated costs from the extended stadium, as you imply we would surely be out of our heads to buy it.
The only benefit of ownership that I can see in those circumstances is security against a loan and why would you want to do that as any exercise of the security would require a change of use. If and when Tan decides to sell his stadium (yes they do delude themselves it's 'theirs' don't they?), it won't be to play football in. Perhaps they'll be able to share Somerton Spitty or whatever, whilst we retain our secure lease. |
Well there are issues of control and extra revenue that would be open to us as full owners of the stadium that give some significant benefit. Enough to justify the cost? Depends on the price really. I'd like to see us own the stadium, but there are more pressing priorities IMO, in particular Fairwood and stadium expansion. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:09 - Nov 12 with 1683 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:56 - Nov 12 by monmouth |
Re Lisa's post. If there is no argument over the accountability for the 'extra revenue' and associated costs from the extended stadium, as you imply we would surely be out of our heads to buy it.
The only benefit of ownership that I can see in those circumstances is security against a loan and why would you want to do that as any exercise of the security would require a change of use. If and when Tan decides to sell his stadium (yes they do delude themselves it's 'theirs' don't they?), it won't be to play football in. Perhaps they'll be able to share Somerton Spitty or whatever, whilst we retain our secure lease. |
yes - that's my view as well.
I think it actually protects us from the madness of that type of investor to be honest. I also think there is something 'right' about it all as well. We are a supporters owned club (and hopefully remain that way) who play in a stadium owned by the people of Swansea. And, by the way - that is the way to look at it. It's not 'the council' that own anything, it's the people of Swansea. In some small way, the success of the football team leads to more money being available for the City. And that, in my view, is far better than that money being available to a nameless 'foreign investor' or greedy agent. | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:16 - Nov 12 with 1677 views | ymaohyd |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:03 - Nov 12 by sherpajacob |
Like many others I support both swans and ospreys. Whilst I would welcome ospreys taking smaller games eg connaght and the Italian teams to st Helens, gnoll and bridgend, none of those grounds could accommodate the crowds for the welsh derbies and the top Irish teams.
I think the current arrangement works well. Cardiff put the extension on their,stand in no time at all, so I guess an extension to the east stand would not be that difficult to arrange |
I don't get the vitriolic nonsense towards the Ospreys. I have seen very few Osprey games but have great affection for them. Why on earth many on here need to be demeaning towards rugby, the Ospreys, both the Welsh national football and rugby teams at times puts me off following the Swans and coming on here. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:25 - Nov 12 with 1669 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:03 - Nov 12 by Uxbridge |
Well there are issues of control and extra revenue that would be open to us as full owners of the stadium that give some significant benefit. Enough to justify the cost? Depends on the price really. I'd like to see us own the stadium, but there are more pressing priorities IMO, in particular Fairwood and stadium expansion. |
really? Like what?
There have been occasions in the past where control has actually voluntarily been relinquished (concerts for example). | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:45 - Nov 12 with 1640 views | Uxbridge |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:25 - Nov 12 by londonlisa2001 |
really? Like what?
There have been occasions in the past where control has actually voluntarily been relinquished (concerts for example). |
Stadco run the stadium. There have been times where the Swans haven't had sufficient control. Now I'm not arguing ownership is needed to ensure control, but it guarantees it. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:50 - Nov 12 with 1631 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:45 - Nov 12 by Uxbridge |
Stadco run the stadium. There have been times where the Swans haven't had sufficient control. Now I'm not arguing ownership is needed to ensure control, but it guarantees it. |
yes they do, but the Swans have always had a very loud voice in it. They have, on occasion, hidden bad news behind the Stadco name (eg. ticketing) and decided things that they have then, publicly, blamed Stadco for when it became apparent that it was unpopular. | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:52 - Nov 12 with 1631 views | Lord_Bony |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:16 - Nov 12 by ymaohyd |
I don't get the vitriolic nonsense towards the Ospreys. I have seen very few Osprey games but have great affection for them. Why on earth many on here need to be demeaning towards rugby, the Ospreys, both the Welsh national football and rugby teams at times puts me off following the Swans and coming on here. |
I dont think anyone ,or at least should nt , have any bad feeling towards the Ospreys.
When it was in the planning stage in 2003 it was designed with us and them in mind. A hell of a chance was taken as we came close to even going out of business and getting kicked out of the football league at the time.
As it turned out good in the end the Ospreys have kind of ended up like our little kid brother who we HAVE TO look after..we have no choice in the matter... | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 17:03 - Nov 12 with 1606 views | Uxbridge |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:50 - Nov 12 by londonlisa2001 |
yes they do, but the Swans have always had a very loud voice in it. They have, on occasion, hidden bad news behind the Stadco name (eg. ticketing) and decided things that they have then, publicly, blamed Stadco for when it became apparent that it was unpopular. |
True it's been a convenient excuse, but times it has, at least, slowed things down. At the very least, it removes an excuse! | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 17:15 - Nov 12 with 1590 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 17:03 - Nov 12 by Uxbridge |
True it's been a convenient excuse, but times it has, at least, slowed things down. At the very least, it removes an excuse! |
yes - a blooming expensive way to remove an excuse though :-) | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 17:43 - Nov 12 with 1558 views | max936 |
Can anyone honestly see us expanding the Stadium for next season? I honestly cannot see it, with all this talk by Huw about the need for outside investment seems to suggest that the funds just aren't there to proceed with the expansion without the investment. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 18:07 - Nov 12 with 1535 views | Edmundo |
No, leave in council Stadco/ownership. We can concentrate on getting expansion done, buy a few extra players and the wages that go with that. |  |
| Swansea City-Officially the best football team in Wales-FACT |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 19:19 - Nov 12 with 1489 views | sully49 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 08:48 - Nov 12 by monmouth |
The only reason to own the ground as I see it is to gain the benefits of expansion (otherwise you are effectively carrying out home improvements for the benefit of your landlord). If we are not going to expand there is no purpose in ownership at all when you have a 150 year lease at a comparatively low rent.
The argument that owning your own ground transforms you into a big club is just laughable. No, beyond laughable. I'm surprised anyone fell for that old pony. |
1000% right, I don't see what we'de gain in doing this, apart from having a football stadia. If it's not broke don't fix it. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 19:32 - Nov 12 with 1476 views | sully49 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:05 - Nov 12 by somersetsimon |
Does someone have an Idiots Guide to the Liberty Stadium deal? I've seen so many conflicting stories and it's all a bit confusing.
-I have a vague recollection from the past that there was some sort of grant funding associated with the initial building of the stadium that was only available if the capacity was below a certain figure. What was the real story?
-Swansea City council aren't known for throwing money around. I can't imagine them spending £27M without expecting a return at some point in the future. Is it really true that the 'rent' paid by the Swans and the Ospreys doesn't even cover the running costs? I would have thought that the council would charge enough to cover the running costs and pay off the building costs over, say, 25 years.
-I can understand the State Aid concerns if it was clear that the Swans and the Ospreys (as businesses) had effectively been subsidised by the council and hence had an unfair advantage over other similar businesses in other areas. Whatever happened to that EU investigation? |
Back In April I vaguely recall the Unions asking the council to "cash in" their interest in the Liberty to fund a pay rise for their members. The speculation was £30m+ | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 20:21 - Nov 12 with 1435 views | Lord_Bony |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:37 - Nov 12 by londonlisa2001 |
there is actually not much of a close season for us to be fitting in all this 'monster trucks' stuff. Particularly since I would hope that the next few years will see the summer being used for stadium expansion.
naming of the stadium - we will get that money anyway (or virtually all of it). Property going up in value -what difference does that make? We can't sell it anyway -we'd have nowhere to play. And you can bet that the costs of building new are going up more quickly than the appreciation of a football stadium being used every week. |
Monster Trucks being just one example of many stadium type events that could be put on more regularly...with the catchment area it could be very profitable as the only other alternative being the Millenium or CCFC, those venues are too far for people to travel to.
The naming and branding of the stadium as far as I know the lions share goes back to the council.
Undoubtedly,the venue and land is prime real estate in the middle of a busy,profitable retail park that is thriving.The value would definitely increase over the years. I m not talking about moving ground but to sit on that asset and milk it for all its worth.
It can be offered as security and any value increases skimmed off and remortgaged for a couple of million every few years. Few banks would turn down that form of collateral.
The extra profits could be inwardly invested in the team and infrastructure of the club...no need for outside investors in that case,we have invested in our own future and own everything lock,stock and barrel.
If done correctly and astutely the club and stadium would be a well oiled money making machine with a great profitable future ahead...whats more it would belong still to the fans and board to run purely for the profit and future of the S.S.F.C. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 20:38 - Nov 12 with 1407 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 20:21 - Nov 12 by Lord_Bony |
Monster Trucks being just one example of many stadium type events that could be put on more regularly...with the catchment area it could be very profitable as the only other alternative being the Millenium or CCFC, those venues are too far for people to travel to.
The naming and branding of the stadium as far as I know the lions share goes back to the council.
Undoubtedly,the venue and land is prime real estate in the middle of a busy,profitable retail park that is thriving.The value would definitely increase over the years. I m not talking about moving ground but to sit on that asset and milk it for all its worth.
It can be offered as security and any value increases skimmed off and remortgaged for a couple of million every few years. Few banks would turn down that form of collateral.
The extra profits could be inwardly invested in the team and infrastructure of the club...no need for outside investors in that case,we have invested in our own future and own everything lock,stock and barrel.
If done correctly and astutely the club and stadium would be a well oiled money making machine with a great profitable future ahead...whats more it would belong still to the fans and board to run purely for the profit and future of the S.S.F.C. |
the lion's share would definitely not go to the council. The article further up on the Etihad is illuminating here. It will virtually all come to us (as does things like ticket revenue and so on now). | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 20:50 - Nov 12 with 1387 views | sully49 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:08 - Nov 12 by scottishjack |
Agreed, I have also been told that one of the obstacles at St.Helens is the lack of hospitality areas. |
I'm positive we could be creative and rectify this situation.  | |
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