| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? 23:37 - Nov 11 with 12418 views | Lord_Bony |
Well Swansea City Counil own the land. A consortium of developers and the council built the stadium in 2005 at a cost of £26 million...upon further investigation the council have leased the ground to SCFC for a period of no less than 150 years!
So there is no danger of it being taken back in our lifetimes.
Feasibly the club could buy back off the council,who would be sympathetic to the cause for somewhere in the region of £15-20 million?
There would probably be a clause whereby we would have to give a good deal to The Ospreys and look after them so they may still enjoy there peppercorn rent they are currently paying.
The consequences of this would be very positive for the clubs future and a prime asset to own. [Post edited 11 Nov 2014 23:41]
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:46 - Nov 14 with 1044 views | jackonicko |
I can't be bothered to look it up, but who is on the hook to repay the grants if it so transpired? Did Stadco even exist as a legal entity when the grants were made?
If not, and the City and County of Swansea is on the hook (and with no recourse to Stadco as no-one thought of it as an issue) then that might be more interesting.
Only because the accounting chat on depreciation is all well and good, but cashflow is king. If the council needs to find £5.5m, they might look to find cash through a deal on the stadium. And not necessarily at full cost. And not necessarily all in one go. |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:49 - Nov 14 with 1043 views | MattG |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 00:37 - Nov 14 by airedale |
Seems to me that our best option, if ownership of the Liberty Stadium asset is to be sold by the council to an interested party, and to minimise the chances of SCFC being seen by hawks as an interesting prospect, that ownership of the asset be undertaken by our Trust.
The benefits of this arrangement seem obvious to me. [Post edited 14 Nov 2014 0:41]
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Now this idea I really like.
Not sure how practical it might be in terms of the detail but, in principle, it sounds superb. |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:00 - Nov 14 with 1023 views | Lord_Bony |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:49 - Nov 14 by MattG |
Now this idea I really like.
Not sure how practical it might be in terms of the detail but, in principle, it sounds superb. |
Yes this could be feasible.
Under EU law the council cannot sell the stadium to a private,business group for a profit.
The trust I think,would be classed as a public group.
If financing could be raised and the stadium used as security then it is definitely do able.
This would also increase the strength and shares of the trust.
We would not need outside investors raping the club of profit in that case. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:15 - Nov 14 with 1003 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:45 - Nov 14 by Shaky |
As something of an aside to this discussion, I am very surprised that one of the finance professionals hasn't come along and objected to the idea of buying the stadium because it would kill return on capital employed.
Of course the reality is that few people in financial markets have heard of this and practically nobody really understands what it means, which is one of the symptoms that we are in such a massive financial bubble.
But I certainly thought that in the real world companies were looking at serious operating metrics; standards are slipping everywhere it seems. |
oh Shaky, as fans, none of us are interested one way or the other in ROCE or any other 'operating metric'.
But again as an aside, any calculated ratio that can be so easily manipulated by companies choosing to follow certain balance sheet treatments of asset valuations / on or off balance sheet recognition of intangibles / rates of depreciation or amortisation and any other of the thousands of ways it can be skewed one way or another is not worth the paper it is written on other than as a comparator to other companies in the same industry and only then, if the people using it are clued up enough to remove the positive or adverse effect of differing balance sheet treatments before calculation and adjust for discrepancies caused by the adoption of, for example, US Gaap as compared to IFRS.
You are right though that virtually no one in financial markets really understands it enough to know that there are far better ways of assessing a company's performance, although the shift in the past 2 decades away from balance sheet and profit based ratios towards cash based certainly implies that the message is gradually getting through. |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:18 - Nov 14 with 998 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 13:46 - Nov 14 by jackonicko |
I can't be bothered to look it up, but who is on the hook to repay the grants if it so transpired? Did Stadco even exist as a legal entity when the grants were made?
If not, and the City and County of Swansea is on the hook (and with no recourse to Stadco as no-one thought of it as an issue) then that might be more interesting.
Only because the accounting chat on depreciation is all well and good, but cashflow is king. If the council needs to find £5.5m, they might look to find cash through a deal on the stadium. And not necessarily at full cost. And not necessarily all in one go. |
That's circular though. If the councll makes a deal in order to be able to find the cash for repayment of any grant, the grant would never become repayable in the first place since they won't have sold the stadium at a profit. | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:41 - Nov 14 with 967 views | jackonicko |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:18 - Nov 14 by londonlisa2001 |
That's circular though. If the councll makes a deal in order to be able to find the cash for repayment of any grant, the grant would never become repayable in the first place since they won't have sold the stadium at a profit. |
Ah. I skimmed the thread.
I presumed the repayment of grants discussion was driven by the EU investigation into illegal state aid.
I shall retire again the sidelines. | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:49 - Nov 15 with 878 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:15 - Nov 14 by londonlisa2001 |
oh Shaky, as fans, none of us are interested one way or the other in ROCE or any other 'operating metric'.
But again as an aside, any calculated ratio that can be so easily manipulated by companies choosing to follow certain balance sheet treatments of asset valuations / on or off balance sheet recognition of intangibles / rates of depreciation or amortisation and any other of the thousands of ways it can be skewed one way or another is not worth the paper it is written on other than as a comparator to other companies in the same industry and only then, if the people using it are clued up enough to remove the positive or adverse effect of differing balance sheet treatments before calculation and adjust for discrepancies caused by the adoption of, for example, US Gaap as compared to IFRS.
You are right though that virtually no one in financial markets really understands it enough to know that there are far better ways of assessing a company's performance, although the shift in the past 2 decades away from balance sheet and profit based ratios towards cash based certainly implies that the message is gradually getting through. |
There appears to be some confusion here Lisa, when I referred to finance professionals I was of course addressing the people working in industry - they know who they are - who presumably have to assist in making capital expenditure decisions on a regular basis.
You think ROCE is "not worth the paper it is written on"?
That is certainly an interesting perspective, and one that will come as an unwelcome surprise to the best strategy consulting firms on earth like BCG, Bain, and our very own LEK, who continue to use the measure as a critical component of their analysis of capex projects, companies, and industries on behalf of blue chip clients globally.
No doubt they would be very interested to know what far superior cash based metrics you use at the cutting edge of accountancy? That is if they are not so secret you can't reveal them? |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:57 - Nov 15 with 869 views | johnlangy |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:49 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
There appears to be some confusion here Lisa, when I referred to finance professionals I was of course addressing the people working in industry - they know who they are - who presumably have to assist in making capital expenditure decisions on a regular basis.
You think ROCE is "not worth the paper it is written on"?
That is certainly an interesting perspective, and one that will come as an unwelcome surprise to the best strategy consulting firms on earth like BCG, Bain, and our very own LEK, who continue to use the measure as a critical component of their analysis of capex projects, companies, and industries on behalf of blue chip clients globally.
No doubt they would be very interested to know what far superior cash based metrics you use at the cutting edge of accountancy? That is if they are not so secret you can't reveal them? |
Is there a point to all this ?
I thought the question was 'Could SCFC buy the Liberty Stadium outright'. English would be much better. | | | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:00 - Nov 15 with 864 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:57 - Nov 15 by johnlangy |
Is there a point to all this ?
I thought the question was 'Could SCFC buy the Liberty Stadium outright'. English would be much better. |
At this stage that depends entirely on Lisa's reply, but in the first instance it would have been considerably more appropriate to ask that question of the post I was replying to. Capiche? [Post edited 15 Nov 2014 10:00]
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:16 - Nov 15 with 852 views | monmouth |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:49 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
There appears to be some confusion here Lisa, when I referred to finance professionals I was of course addressing the people working in industry - they know who they are - who presumably have to assist in making capital expenditure decisions on a regular basis.
You think ROCE is "not worth the paper it is written on"?
That is certainly an interesting perspective, and one that will come as an unwelcome surprise to the best strategy consulting firms on earth like BCG, Bain, and our very own LEK, who continue to use the measure as a critical component of their analysis of capex projects, companies, and industries on behalf of blue chip clients globally.
No doubt they would be very interested to know what far superior cash based metrics you use at the cutting edge of accountancy? That is if they are not so secret you can't reveal them? |
You don't know that cash based methods are superior to accounting based methods of investment appraisal? Crikey. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:35 - Nov 15 with 842 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:16 - Nov 15 by monmouth |
You don't know that cash based methods are superior to accounting based methods of investment appraisal? Crikey. |
A little quiz for you:
Q1:
Project 1 has an NPV of £2m at a discount rate of 13%
Project 2 has an NPV of £4m at a discount rate of 13%
Which project do you invest in?
Q2:
Project 1 has an IRR of 25%
Project 2 has an IRR of 50%
Which project do you invest in? | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:44 - Nov 15 with 838 views | airedale |
I've invested in a cheeky bottle of old vine Zin at 14.5%, I'm going to expect a first class return from that tonight. |  | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:58 - Nov 15 with 823 views | monmouth |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:35 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
A little quiz for you:
Q1:
Project 1 has an NPV of £2m at a discount rate of 13%
Project 2 has an NPV of £4m at a discount rate of 13%
Which project do you invest in?
Q2:
Project 1 has an IRR of 25%
Project 2 has an IRR of 50%
Which project do you invest in? |
You do know that your question is meaningless as a comparison yes? Or in your rush to google have you confused IRR with ARR? | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:02 - Nov 15 with 821 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 10:58 - Nov 15 by monmouth |
You do know that your question is meaningless as a comparison yes? Or in your rush to google have you confused IRR with ARR? |
Is the correct answer.
So what did you have in mind when you said:
"You don't know that cash based methods are superior to accounting based methods of investment appraisal? Crikey. " | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:06 - Nov 15 with 811 views | monmouth |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:02 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
Is the correct answer.
So what did you have in mind when you said:
"You don't know that cash based methods are superior to accounting based methods of investment appraisal? Crikey. " |
LMAO. Nice try to reverse. Explain to me why your question was meaningless. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:09 - Nov 15 with 807 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:06 - Nov 15 by monmouth |
LMAO. Nice try to reverse. Explain to me why your question was meaningless. |
So you basically have nothing. By Lisa's standards that is so thin it is almost diarrhea rather than bullshit. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:21 - Nov 15 with 788 views | monmouth |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:09 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
So you basically have nothing. By Lisa's standards that is so thin it is almost diarrhea rather than bullshit. |
Ah, the bluster defence.
Aye I knew you didn't have a clue. You see me old mucker, it's dangerous to claim to know things that you don't. I think it's pretty obvious who knows nothing here.
I'll give you a clue shall I?
There are two reasons at least; one relating to the nature of IRR and NPV and one relating to information that was missing from your question.
So come on Mr All Knowing, do enlighten us to why my answer was 'correct', which was your evaluation after all. I did answer your question, now answer mine.
I won't hold my breath.
edit...all gone quiet over there? Is that the sound of frantic googling I hear....sadly google gives data not understanding... [Post edited 15 Nov 2014 11:29]
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:42 - Nov 15 with 762 views | waynekerr55 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 09:02 - Nov 12 by Joe_bradshaw |
If we owned the Liberty the American "investors" would be even more interested and the selling price for the shareholders would be even higher.
Cute action plan for the current shareholders:-
Swansea City borrow money to buy the Liberty.
Swansea City become more attractive to "investors".
Shareholders sell at higher price and live happily ever after.
Swansea City FC are at the mercy of the new "investors". |
Not necessarily. Man Citeh don't and didn't own their ground before Sheik Mansour rocked up. Then again I imagine Manchester Council are probably more forward thinking and easier to work with than the thick backward c*nts we've got as a council |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:43 - Nov 15 with 762 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:21 - Nov 15 by monmouth |
Ah, the bluster defence.
Aye I knew you didn't have a clue. You see me old mucker, it's dangerous to claim to know things that you don't. I think it's pretty obvious who knows nothing here.
I'll give you a clue shall I?
There are two reasons at least; one relating to the nature of IRR and NPV and one relating to information that was missing from your question.
So come on Mr All Knowing, do enlighten us to why my answer was 'correct', which was your evaluation after all. I did answer your question, now answer mine.
I won't hold my breath.
edit...all gone quiet over there? Is that the sound of frantic googling I hear....sadly google gives data not understanding... [Post edited 15 Nov 2014 11:29]
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1. Lisa made the claim that ROCE was worthless as a measure of investment appraisal.
2. She then stated that cash-flow based metrics were far superior.
3. When I asked what those were, you piped in with the vacuous comment didn't I know that cash-flow is better than accounting.
4. I responded by asking you to decide between 2 projects on the basis of the best known cash-flow based investment appraisal criteria. The point being that they were hopelessly insufficient to reach any conclusion, which is why I posed the rhetorical question in the first place. Duh!
5 3) came before 4). What are these superior cash-flow based metrics?
6. I have just picked up my girls from ballet if you mush know. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:59 - Nov 15 with 751 views | monmouth |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:43 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
1. Lisa made the claim that ROCE was worthless as a measure of investment appraisal.
2. She then stated that cash-flow based metrics were far superior.
3. When I asked what those were, you piped in with the vacuous comment didn't I know that cash-flow is better than accounting.
4. I responded by asking you to decide between 2 projects on the basis of the best known cash-flow based investment appraisal criteria. The point being that they were hopelessly insufficient to reach any conclusion, which is why I posed the rhetorical question in the first place. Duh!
5 3) came before 4). What are these superior cash-flow based metrics?
6. I have just picked up my girls from ballet if you mush know. |
Re 4 they are not "hopelessly insufficient to reach any conclusion" at all. It was just your question that was meaningless.
Look I quite enjoy some of your posts but sometimes you know sh1t (as do I about many things) and in your determination to prove Lisa wrong in everything you just over-reached. Why do you find it so hard to admit you don't know? I don't need to wave my dick around on here, but you might as well accept that I know more about investment appraisal than you (if I didn't there would be something wrong, given what I do and have done, and no, I've no intention of specifying) but I've no real desire to get into an argument about it. ROCE is not a great way to do it, but some companies use it as some managers like it even with its flaws, but Lisa is right in that many see it as inherently too flawed and use it, at most, as a subsidiary measure, but often not at all. Basically, you pays your money and takes your choice, but cash based is better and most of the companies that I still speak to have moved heavily that way.
I'm logging off now to get some lovely Saturday fresh air. Enjoy your day. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:09 - Nov 15 with 741 views | Shaky |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:59 - Nov 15 by monmouth |
Re 4 they are not "hopelessly insufficient to reach any conclusion" at all. It was just your question that was meaningless.
Look I quite enjoy some of your posts but sometimes you know sh1t (as do I about many things) and in your determination to prove Lisa wrong in everything you just over-reached. Why do you find it so hard to admit you don't know? I don't need to wave my dick around on here, but you might as well accept that I know more about investment appraisal than you (if I didn't there would be something wrong, given what I do and have done, and no, I've no intention of specifying) but I've no real desire to get into an argument about it. ROCE is not a great way to do it, but some companies use it as some managers like it even with its flaws, but Lisa is right in that many see it as inherently too flawed and use it, at most, as a subsidiary measure, but often not at all. Basically, you pays your money and takes your choice, but cash based is better and most of the companies that I still speak to have moved heavily that way.
I'm logging off now to get some lovely Saturday fresh air. Enjoy your day. |
Listen sonny, I have been making Discounted Cash-Flow (DCF) Valuation models relied on by blue chip companies since 1990 in Lotus 123, and there is not a thing you or anybody can tell me about the discipline.
I know the advantages and the disadvantages, and the reality is that I can make them say whatever I want, and have yet to meet anybody who can unpick them due to the inherent complexity of large spreadsheet models.
The notion that the accounting vagaries involved in calculating of ROCE render them useless compared to a cash-flow metric is a massive joke, that can only come from individuals who have no serious experience whatsoever.
Clearly you fall into that category given you amateur comments, as well as my original charge that you were incapable of intuitively understanding the implications for ROCE of stadium investment. | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:26 - Nov 15 with 717 views | ItchySphincter |
No wonder I hardly ever post here these days. |  |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 14:55 - Nov 15 with 667 views | waynekerr55 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:09 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
Listen sonny, I have been making Discounted Cash-Flow (DCF) Valuation models relied on by blue chip companies since 1990 in Lotus 123, and there is not a thing you or anybody can tell me about the discipline.
I know the advantages and the disadvantages, and the reality is that I can make them say whatever I want, and have yet to meet anybody who can unpick them due to the inherent complexity of large spreadsheet models.
The notion that the accounting vagaries involved in calculating of ROCE render them useless compared to a cash-flow metric is a massive joke, that can only come from individuals who have no serious experience whatsoever.
Clearly you fall into that category given you amateur comments, as well as my original charge that you were incapable of intuitively understanding the implications for ROCE of stadium investment. |
Lotus 123 - now that IS a blast from the past Shake! | |
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| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 15:02 - Nov 15 with 660 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 11:43 - Nov 15 by Shaky |
1. Lisa made the claim that ROCE was worthless as a measure of investment appraisal.
2. She then stated that cash-flow based metrics were far superior.
3. When I asked what those were, you piped in with the vacuous comment didn't I know that cash-flow is better than accounting.
4. I responded by asking you to decide between 2 projects on the basis of the best known cash-flow based investment appraisal criteria. The point being that they were hopelessly insufficient to reach any conclusion, which is why I posed the rhetorical question in the first place. Duh!
5 3) came before 4). What are these superior cash-flow based metrics?
6. I have just picked up my girls from ballet if you mush know. |
1. What I actually said was this
'not worth the paper it is written on other than as a comparator to other companies in the same industry and only then, if the people using it are clued up enough to remove the positive or adverse effect of differing balance sheet treatments before calculation and adjust for discrepancies caused by the adoption of, for example, US Gaap as compared to IFRS'
so you'll note that I said 'unless' and then 'same industry' and 'with discrepancies caused by accounting stuff taken out'.
You've tried to turn that to 'worthless'.
Question since you seem to enjoy a quiz - do you believe that ROCE will have the same accept / reject threshold for a supermarket, for example as for a decision on whether to open a new power station?
Another question - even if you were to compare the ROCE achieved by lets say Walmart with Tesco with Aldi, so all supermarkets, would it be a good comparison unless you understood the accounting policies used within each (or forced on them by the adoption of US or IFRS accounting standards)?
By the way - again your understanding of what 'cash based' means is a little out of date if the only thing you can think of is a DCF. The move throughout industry, the banks that appraise those industries and the accountants that review those industries towards cash based measures encompasses all sorts of things, not just DCF. The whole notion of EBITDA and its derivatives rather than Profit is a very simple example of the move to cash measures. And I'm pretty certain that Bain, BCG or every other consultancy practice know all about it.
By the way Shaky - since you keep crapping on about it - I'm not an accountant you know - I am qualified as one and a member of the relevant Institute, but I haven't been 'an accountant' for a good 20 years. I was an accountant in 1990 though when I was also using Lotus 123. Did you know that Microsoft automatically build all short cut keys from 123 into Excel because there are so many people around that used that as their first spreadsheet package? You're not on your own with that. | | | |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 16:46 - Nov 15 with 613 views | johnlangy |
| Could SCFC buy The Liberty Stadium outright? on 12:26 - Nov 15 by ItchySphincter |
No wonder I hardly ever post here these days. |
I'm presuming from that comment that you're as bored with this whole 'I know more than you about finance' debate as I am.
Shaky replied to my earlier post with ;
'At this stage that depends entirely on Lisa's reply, but in the first instance it would have been considerably more appropriate to ask that question of the post I was replying to. Capiche?'.
I imagine he said that because I replied to one of his posts. It could just as easily have been one of Lisa's. I don't really care what they know or how clever they are.
If you are going to respond to the OP whether you be Shaky, Lisa or whoever, just write in English so we can all understand. | | | |
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