| Well done bundesliga fans on 15:44 - Sep 1 with 1701 views | Private_Partz |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 14:00 - Sep 1 by perchrockjack |
Seems everything is our fault.
Really we should kill our first born and torch ourselves.
It is not all our faults.
Again it's leftie bleeding hearts.
Solidarity ..? Jesus.save us from all this |
You are looking for black and white where none exists. The intentions may have been good but you cannot say that things have improved since our excursions into these places on the arm of Uncle Sam. They have got considerably worse as the enemy is now busy forming it's own state in the vacuum left behind in these country's once the dictators were overthrown (or partially overthrown as in Syria).
My view is the least we ( and by 'we' I mean Europe and the rest of the civilised world) can now do is provide initial support for these people whilst the longer term problem is addressed of stabilising their countries so they can return home. |  |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
|
|  |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 15:54 - Sep 1 with 1687 views | Nookiejack |
Compassion v world population forecast to grow to 11bn which is going to mean larger and larger numbers of poor people looking to migrate to richer countries.
Merkel appears to have got it wrong with regards to perception that Germany has total open door policy to refugees/ economic migrants. If she is not careful millions will start to move West.
This may cause an issue for UK - if she then grants then German and de facto EU citizenship as then can't stop them coming into UK.
If research says that UK population could grow to say 120 million with 90million in South East of London (that's the region where most migrants appear to head for) and that would be sustainable with regards to infrastructure and a little bit of green space - then I would be more comfortable.
Also with regards to research on mix of religions of migrants as don't want to end up in a country where in our democracy people of one religion could take power. There is a lot of fear and scaremongering in the right wing press - but what are the real hard facts. If for example out of net 300k coming in this is equally spread between Arheists, Buddhists, Christians (Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants) and Muslims - then probably not much of an issue.
The thing is most of world lives in poverty compared to the West. The West consumes proportionately more of the Worlds economic pie than other people of the world. This mass migration you could argue is start of form of redistribution of wealth. |  | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 17:28 - Sep 1 with 1664 views | yescomeon |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 15:54 - Sep 1 by Nookiejack |
Compassion v world population forecast to grow to 11bn which is going to mean larger and larger numbers of poor people looking to migrate to richer countries.
Merkel appears to have got it wrong with regards to perception that Germany has total open door policy to refugees/ economic migrants. If she is not careful millions will start to move West.
This may cause an issue for UK - if she then grants then German and de facto EU citizenship as then can't stop them coming into UK.
If research says that UK population could grow to say 120 million with 90million in South East of London (that's the region where most migrants appear to head for) and that would be sustainable with regards to infrastructure and a little bit of green space - then I would be more comfortable.
Also with regards to research on mix of religions of migrants as don't want to end up in a country where in our democracy people of one religion could take power. There is a lot of fear and scaremongering in the right wing press - but what are the real hard facts. If for example out of net 300k coming in this is equally spread between Arheists, Buddhists, Christians (Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants) and Muslims - then probably not much of an issue.
The thing is most of world lives in poverty compared to the West. The West consumes proportionately more of the Worlds economic pie than other people of the world. This mass migration you could argue is start of form of redistribution of wealth. |
Agree with you on all but the global population figure, no way will global population reach 11bn, absolutely no way. I see osmosis as an analogue for migration, this movement is caused first and foremost by an over accumulation of wealth in a small area. If wealth was spread more evenly, so too would population be (by wealth I mean resources, the likes of water included). |  |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 17:30 - Sep 1 with 1659 views | perchrockjack |
"things have improved"... where I say that then | |
| |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 17:48 - Sep 1 with 1637 views | Private_Partz |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 17:30 - Sep 1 by perchrockjack |
"things have improved"... where I say that then |
Indeed you didn't say it. I was speaking generally. Apologies for giving that impression. | |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
|
| |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 17:51 - Sep 1 with 1629 views | perchrockjack |
very gracious pp, no problems mate.
It is a fact some posters do Not read fully what I post.
Granted Im a tricky feooker but sometimes Im serious. | |
| |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 18:53 - Sep 1 with 1610 views | lovejuicejack |
Here is some hard facts not media propaganda to cover up the government and banks causing the economic problems. Perch I'll let you off this one as I know you can't read.
When you’re facing the world’s biggest refugee crisis since the second world war, it helps to have a sober debate about how to respond. But to do that, you need facts and data — two things that the British migration debate has lacked this summer. Theresa May got the ball rolling in May, when she claimed on Radio 4 that the vast majority of migrants to Europe are Africans travelling for economic reasons. The media has followed suit, one example being the Daily Mail’s unsubstantiated recent assertion that seven in 10 migrants at Calais will reach the UK.
Foreign secretary Philip Hammond this week not only repeated May’s claims about African economic migrants, but portrayed them as marauders who would soon hasten the collapse of European civilisation. Hammond, like many people, could do with some actual statistics about the migration crisis. Here are 10 of the key ones:
62%
Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism — and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria — then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.
1%
If you read the British press, you’d think that Calais was the major battleground of the European migrant crisis, and that Britain was the holy grail of its protagonists. In reality, the migrants at Calais account for as little as 1% of those who have arrived in Europe so far this year. Estimates suggest that between 2,000-5,000 migrants have reached Calais, which is between 1% and 2.5% of the more than 200,000 who have landed in Italy and Greece. Just as importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that as many as seven in 10 have reached Britain after arriving in Calais. The Daily Mail admitted this several paragraphs into its article.
0.027%
Hammond said that the migrants would speed the collapse of the European social order. In reality, the number of migrants to have arrived so far this year (200,000) is so minuscule that it constitutes just 0.027% of Europe’s total population of 740 million. The world’s wealthiest continent can easily handle such a comparatively small influx.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos. Photograph: YANNIS BEHRAKIS/REUTERS
1.2 million
There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis — but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe — and, in particular, Britain — does not.
Migration crisis quiz: can you separate fact from fiction?
Read more
£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden — the two most popular migrant destinations — pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.
50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them — especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia — have legitimate claims to refugee status.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June. Photograph: Rowan Griffiths/Daily Mirror/PA
4%
Last autumn, the EU opted to suspend full-scale maritime rescue operations in the Mediterranean in the belief that their presence was encouraging more migrants to risk the sea journey from Libya to Europe. In reality, people kept on coming. In fact, there was a 4% year-on-year increase during the months that the rescue missions were on hiatus. Over 27,800 tried the journey in 2015, or died in the attempt, until operations were reinstated in May, according to figures from the International Organisation for Migration. Only 26,740 tried it in 2014. The disparity suggests that migrants were either unaware of the rescue operations in the first place, or simply unbothered by their suspension — a thesis borne out by my own interviews. “I don’t think that even if they decided to bomb migrant boats it would change peoples’ decision to go,” said Abu Jana, a Syrian I met as he was planning to make the sea voyage earlier this year.
Swarms, floods and marauders: the toxic metaphors of the migration debate
David Shariatmadari
Read more
25,870
Contrary to the perception of the UK as the high altar of immigration, it is not a particularly major magnet for refugees. In 2014, just 25,870 people sought asylum in the UK, and only 10,050 were accepted. Germany (97275), France (68500), Sweden (39,905) and Italy (35,180) were all far more affected. When the ratings are calculated as a proportion to population size, the UK slips even further down the table — behind Belgium, Holland and Austria. If the ratings were calculated on 2015 rates, then even impoverished Greece would rise above the UK in the table. Just as tellingly, the UK has welcomed just 187 Syrians through legal mechanisms at the last count. Turkey has around 1.6 million.
€11bn
Hammond and David Cameron argue that the solution to migration is to increase deportations. They believe this will save Britain money, as less cash will be spent on paying each asylum seeker £36.95 per week. However, this strategy ignores the cost of deportations — whose alleged financial cost could rival that of the asylum seekers’ benefits bill. According to a series of investigations by the website The Migrant Files, as many as €11bn have been spent on repatriating migrants to their countries of origin since 2000. A further billion has been blown on Europe-wide coordination efforts to secure European borders — money that could have been spent on integrating migrants into European society.
-76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more. |  | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 22:35 - Sep 1 with 1565 views | Private_Partz |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 18:53 - Sep 1 by lovejuicejack |
Here is some hard facts not media propaganda to cover up the government and banks causing the economic problems. Perch I'll let you off this one as I know you can't read.
When you’re facing the world’s biggest refugee crisis since the second world war, it helps to have a sober debate about how to respond. But to do that, you need facts and data — two things that the British migration debate has lacked this summer. Theresa May got the ball rolling in May, when she claimed on Radio 4 that the vast majority of migrants to Europe are Africans travelling for economic reasons. The media has followed suit, one example being the Daily Mail’s unsubstantiated recent assertion that seven in 10 migrants at Calais will reach the UK.
Foreign secretary Philip Hammond this week not only repeated May’s claims about African economic migrants, but portrayed them as marauders who would soon hasten the collapse of European civilisation. Hammond, like many people, could do with some actual statistics about the migration crisis. Here are 10 of the key ones:
62%
Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism — and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria — then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.
1%
If you read the British press, you’d think that Calais was the major battleground of the European migrant crisis, and that Britain was the holy grail of its protagonists. In reality, the migrants at Calais account for as little as 1% of those who have arrived in Europe so far this year. Estimates suggest that between 2,000-5,000 migrants have reached Calais, which is between 1% and 2.5% of the more than 200,000 who have landed in Italy and Greece. Just as importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that as many as seven in 10 have reached Britain after arriving in Calais. The Daily Mail admitted this several paragraphs into its article.
0.027%
Hammond said that the migrants would speed the collapse of the European social order. In reality, the number of migrants to have arrived so far this year (200,000) is so minuscule that it constitutes just 0.027% of Europe’s total population of 740 million. The world’s wealthiest continent can easily handle such a comparatively small influx.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos. Photograph: YANNIS BEHRAKIS/REUTERS
1.2 million
There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis — but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe — and, in particular, Britain — does not.
Migration crisis quiz: can you separate fact from fiction?
Read more
£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden — the two most popular migrant destinations — pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.
50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them — especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia — have legitimate claims to refugee status.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June. Photograph: Rowan Griffiths/Daily Mirror/PA
4%
Last autumn, the EU opted to suspend full-scale maritime rescue operations in the Mediterranean in the belief that their presence was encouraging more migrants to risk the sea journey from Libya to Europe. In reality, people kept on coming. In fact, there was a 4% year-on-year increase during the months that the rescue missions were on hiatus. Over 27,800 tried the journey in 2015, or died in the attempt, until operations were reinstated in May, according to figures from the International Organisation for Migration. Only 26,740 tried it in 2014. The disparity suggests that migrants were either unaware of the rescue operations in the first place, or simply unbothered by their suspension — a thesis borne out by my own interviews. “I don’t think that even if they decided to bomb migrant boats it would change peoples’ decision to go,” said Abu Jana, a Syrian I met as he was planning to make the sea voyage earlier this year.
Swarms, floods and marauders: the toxic metaphors of the migration debate
David Shariatmadari
Read more
25,870
Contrary to the perception of the UK as the high altar of immigration, it is not a particularly major magnet for refugees. In 2014, just 25,870 people sought asylum in the UK, and only 10,050 were accepted. Germany (97275), France (68500), Sweden (39,905) and Italy (35,180) were all far more affected. When the ratings are calculated as a proportion to population size, the UK slips even further down the table — behind Belgium, Holland and Austria. If the ratings were calculated on 2015 rates, then even impoverished Greece would rise above the UK in the table. Just as tellingly, the UK has welcomed just 187 Syrians through legal mechanisms at the last count. Turkey has around 1.6 million.
€11bn
Hammond and David Cameron argue that the solution to migration is to increase deportations. They believe this will save Britain money, as less cash will be spent on paying each asylum seeker £36.95 per week. However, this strategy ignores the cost of deportations — whose alleged financial cost could rival that of the asylum seekers’ benefits bill. According to a series of investigations by the website The Migrant Files, as many as €11bn have been spent on repatriating migrants to their countries of origin since 2000. A further billion has been blown on Europe-wide coordination efforts to secure European borders — money that could have been spent on integrating migrants into European society.
-76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more. |
Wow. It's all gone quiet over there :-)
Well done LJJ for getting those stats together. Tends to confirm what I have been thinking and what JC is actually saying.
I am sure someone will come up eventually and try it discredit your sources but it gives those that disagree the opportunity to provide some alternative stats to back up the Tory / UKIP view. | |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
|
| |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 22:49 - Sep 1 with 1555 views | longlostjack |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 18:53 - Sep 1 by lovejuicejack |
Here is some hard facts not media propaganda to cover up the government and banks causing the economic problems. Perch I'll let you off this one as I know you can't read.
When you’re facing the world’s biggest refugee crisis since the second world war, it helps to have a sober debate about how to respond. But to do that, you need facts and data — two things that the British migration debate has lacked this summer. Theresa May got the ball rolling in May, when she claimed on Radio 4 that the vast majority of migrants to Europe are Africans travelling for economic reasons. The media has followed suit, one example being the Daily Mail’s unsubstantiated recent assertion that seven in 10 migrants at Calais will reach the UK.
Foreign secretary Philip Hammond this week not only repeated May’s claims about African economic migrants, but portrayed them as marauders who would soon hasten the collapse of European civilisation. Hammond, like many people, could do with some actual statistics about the migration crisis. Here are 10 of the key ones:
62%
Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism — and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria — then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.
1%
If you read the British press, you’d think that Calais was the major battleground of the European migrant crisis, and that Britain was the holy grail of its protagonists. In reality, the migrants at Calais account for as little as 1% of those who have arrived in Europe so far this year. Estimates suggest that between 2,000-5,000 migrants have reached Calais, which is between 1% and 2.5% of the more than 200,000 who have landed in Italy and Greece. Just as importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that as many as seven in 10 have reached Britain after arriving in Calais. The Daily Mail admitted this several paragraphs into its article.
0.027%
Hammond said that the migrants would speed the collapse of the European social order. In reality, the number of migrants to have arrived so far this year (200,000) is so minuscule that it constitutes just 0.027% of Europe’s total population of 740 million. The world’s wealthiest continent can easily handle such a comparatively small influx.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos. Photograph: YANNIS BEHRAKIS/REUTERS
1.2 million
There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis — but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe — and, in particular, Britain — does not.
Migration crisis quiz: can you separate fact from fiction?
Read more
£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden — the two most popular migrant destinations — pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.
50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them — especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia — have legitimate claims to refugee status.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June. Photograph: Rowan Griffiths/Daily Mirror/PA
4%
Last autumn, the EU opted to suspend full-scale maritime rescue operations in the Mediterranean in the belief that their presence was encouraging more migrants to risk the sea journey from Libya to Europe. In reality, people kept on coming. In fact, there was a 4% year-on-year increase during the months that the rescue missions were on hiatus. Over 27,800 tried the journey in 2015, or died in the attempt, until operations were reinstated in May, according to figures from the International Organisation for Migration. Only 26,740 tried it in 2014. The disparity suggests that migrants were either unaware of the rescue operations in the first place, or simply unbothered by their suspension — a thesis borne out by my own interviews. “I don’t think that even if they decided to bomb migrant boats it would change peoples’ decision to go,” said Abu Jana, a Syrian I met as he was planning to make the sea voyage earlier this year.
Swarms, floods and marauders: the toxic metaphors of the migration debate
David Shariatmadari
Read more
25,870
Contrary to the perception of the UK as the high altar of immigration, it is not a particularly major magnet for refugees. In 2014, just 25,870 people sought asylum in the UK, and only 10,050 were accepted. Germany (97275), France (68500), Sweden (39,905) and Italy (35,180) were all far more affected. When the ratings are calculated as a proportion to population size, the UK slips even further down the table — behind Belgium, Holland and Austria. If the ratings were calculated on 2015 rates, then even impoverished Greece would rise above the UK in the table. Just as tellingly, the UK has welcomed just 187 Syrians through legal mechanisms at the last count. Turkey has around 1.6 million.
€11bn
Hammond and David Cameron argue that the solution to migration is to increase deportations. They believe this will save Britain money, as less cash will be spent on paying each asylum seeker £36.95 per week. However, this strategy ignores the cost of deportations — whose alleged financial cost could rival that of the asylum seekers’ benefits bill. According to a series of investigations by the website The Migrant Files, as many as €11bn have been spent on repatriating migrants to their countries of origin since 2000. A further billion has been blown on Europe-wide coordination efforts to secure European borders — money that could have been spent on integrating migrants into European society.
-76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more. |
Excellent post. |  |
| |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 23:51 - Sep 1 with 1527 views | Nookiejack |
The most powerful statistic for me was 1.5m refugees in Lebanon verses a population size of 4.5m.
So agree on face of it Europe's contribution is minuscule.
The thing is isn't it better that we provide substantial resources to Lebanon - so that when Syrian crisis is resolved they can just go back over border?
After all they want to go back to their homeland when Syrian crisis is resolved - so isn't Lebanon the best place to support them (Noting that I understand Lebanon currently supports a number of Palestinian refugee camps as well) - so should UK Govt be providing substantial resources to Lebanese Govt. Also I assume no security risk for them in Lebanon?
Or are we saying Lebanon can't support 1.5m refugees - it doesn't have the infrastructure?
Also what is Saudi Arabia's contribution as understand Syria is mostly Sunni whereas Iran is Shia. What about all the other Sunni countries out there - especially those that have substantial wealth like Saudi Arabia.
Why do Hammond and May keep posturing on this? Are there massive amounts of votes to be won? Or is there an underlying issue that we haven't got enough infrastructure to cope with net 300k of immigrants each year (the size the city of Cardiff apparently needed to cope with 300k net new people).
Why does the Daily Mail everyday run a story about the migrants breaching the walls of fortress Europe?
Is there a real issue that UK will become a Muslim country if lets in all these young male immigrants and then they bring in their extended family and that their resultant families will have very high birth rates - hence eventually turning the UK Muslim? Or again is this just scaremongering by right wing press?
Is it really a problem that British people/culture who have lived in these islands from the last Ice Age - could suddenly become the Minority in the space of a few years - without any democratic consultation? Who ever asked the British people that 8m foreign born people would suddenly arrive in the UK? In contrast what would size of UK population have been if 8m hadn't turned up? Would our population gone into decline? Also will we find that the immigrants are actually a lot nicer than the people we actually grow up and currently reside with?
To be honest I am undecided - I am not sure if there if there is a fundamental issue or whether being hoodwinked by the right wing elite and associated right wing press?
I do think world population will rise and rise - that will lead to even more poor people and assume they will want to emigrate to richer nations. I also feel that UK already has a high population density - so uncomfortable with population increasing even more. I understand our population is forecast to increase naturally to about 70m as people live 10% longer.
Do think our relatively high overseas aid budget (compared to other nations) should countinue to assist developing and poor countries to bring their standard of living up. Hope it is not being spent on military aid and/or to protect our vested interests. | | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:08 - Sep 2 with 1520 views | Bloodyhills |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 22:21 - Aug 31 by dgt73 |
Anyone who thinks your average german welcomes refugees must be living in cloud cuckoo land. I spent 14 months working in Rostock and believe me they don't like outsiders. |
And therefore you are an expert on the average German! I lived in Bavaria for three years and what I saw was that they accepted refugees. That's just my observations from talking to friends and work colleagues and reading the newspapers there. | |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:10 - Sep 2 with 1520 views | Bloodyhills |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 22:35 - Aug 31 by swansealad69 |
And you say we put these country's in this situation?
The middle east is a very dangerous place were they still kill and butcher there own over religion
That has nothing to do with us.
Many country's are run by idiots who again have nothing to do with us
The gulf wars let's face it had to happen as we all use oil and as the middle east is were massive amounts are we had to stop Iraq
Afghanistan was a hot bed for terror camps and had to be felt with.
We are out off there now and they at least have some sort off government there who will slowly bring order. |
You are really showing your ignorance there mate. | |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:15 - Sep 2 with 1503 views | Bloodyhills |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 18:53 - Sep 1 by lovejuicejack |
Here is some hard facts not media propaganda to cover up the government and banks causing the economic problems. Perch I'll let you off this one as I know you can't read.
When you’re facing the world’s biggest refugee crisis since the second world war, it helps to have a sober debate about how to respond. But to do that, you need facts and data — two things that the British migration debate has lacked this summer. Theresa May got the ball rolling in May, when she claimed on Radio 4 that the vast majority of migrants to Europe are Africans travelling for economic reasons. The media has followed suit, one example being the Daily Mail’s unsubstantiated recent assertion that seven in 10 migrants at Calais will reach the UK.
Foreign secretary Philip Hammond this week not only repeated May’s claims about African economic migrants, but portrayed them as marauders who would soon hasten the collapse of European civilisation. Hammond, like many people, could do with some actual statistics about the migration crisis. Here are 10 of the key ones:
62%
Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism — and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria — then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.
1%
If you read the British press, you’d think that Calais was the major battleground of the European migrant crisis, and that Britain was the holy grail of its protagonists. In reality, the migrants at Calais account for as little as 1% of those who have arrived in Europe so far this year. Estimates suggest that between 2,000-5,000 migrants have reached Calais, which is between 1% and 2.5% of the more than 200,000 who have landed in Italy and Greece. Just as importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that as many as seven in 10 have reached Britain after arriving in Calais. The Daily Mail admitted this several paragraphs into its article.
0.027%
Hammond said that the migrants would speed the collapse of the European social order. In reality, the number of migrants to have arrived so far this year (200,000) is so minuscule that it constitutes just 0.027% of Europe’s total population of 740 million. The world’s wealthiest continent can easily handle such a comparatively small influx.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos. Photograph: YANNIS BEHRAKIS/REUTERS
1.2 million
There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis — but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe — and, in particular, Britain — does not.
Migration crisis quiz: can you separate fact from fiction?
Read more
£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden — the two most popular migrant destinations — pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.
50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them — especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia — have legitimate claims to refugee status.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June. Photograph: Rowan Griffiths/Daily Mirror/PA
4%
Last autumn, the EU opted to suspend full-scale maritime rescue operations in the Mediterranean in the belief that their presence was encouraging more migrants to risk the sea journey from Libya to Europe. In reality, people kept on coming. In fact, there was a 4% year-on-year increase during the months that the rescue missions were on hiatus. Over 27,800 tried the journey in 2015, or died in the attempt, until operations were reinstated in May, according to figures from the International Organisation for Migration. Only 26,740 tried it in 2014. The disparity suggests that migrants were either unaware of the rescue operations in the first place, or simply unbothered by their suspension — a thesis borne out by my own interviews. “I don’t think that even if they decided to bomb migrant boats it would change peoples’ decision to go,” said Abu Jana, a Syrian I met as he was planning to make the sea voyage earlier this year.
Swarms, floods and marauders: the toxic metaphors of the migration debate
David Shariatmadari
Read more
25,870
Contrary to the perception of the UK as the high altar of immigration, it is not a particularly major magnet for refugees. In 2014, just 25,870 people sought asylum in the UK, and only 10,050 were accepted. Germany (97275), France (68500), Sweden (39,905) and Italy (35,180) were all far more affected. When the ratings are calculated as a proportion to population size, the UK slips even further down the table — behind Belgium, Holland and Austria. If the ratings were calculated on 2015 rates, then even impoverished Greece would rise above the UK in the table. Just as tellingly, the UK has welcomed just 187 Syrians through legal mechanisms at the last count. Turkey has around 1.6 million.
€11bn
Hammond and David Cameron argue that the solution to migration is to increase deportations. They believe this will save Britain money, as less cash will be spent on paying each asylum seeker £36.95 per week. However, this strategy ignores the cost of deportations — whose alleged financial cost could rival that of the asylum seekers’ benefits bill. According to a series of investigations by the website The Migrant Files, as many as €11bn have been spent on repatriating migrants to their countries of origin since 2000. A further billion has been blown on Europe-wide coordination efforts to secure European borders — money that could have been spent on integrating migrants into European society.
-76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more. |
This. Am sure a lot won't let the facts get in the way of their biggotry, those who are happy to see drowned children floating around in the med. Sometimes I am embarrassed by the lack of humanity shown by fellow fans. | |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:17 - Sep 2 with 1501 views | longlostjack |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 23:51 - Sep 1 by Nookiejack |
The most powerful statistic for me was 1.5m refugees in Lebanon verses a population size of 4.5m.
So agree on face of it Europe's contribution is minuscule.
The thing is isn't it better that we provide substantial resources to Lebanon - so that when Syrian crisis is resolved they can just go back over border?
After all they want to go back to their homeland when Syrian crisis is resolved - so isn't Lebanon the best place to support them (Noting that I understand Lebanon currently supports a number of Palestinian refugee camps as well) - so should UK Govt be providing substantial resources to Lebanese Govt. Also I assume no security risk for them in Lebanon?
Or are we saying Lebanon can't support 1.5m refugees - it doesn't have the infrastructure?
Also what is Saudi Arabia's contribution as understand Syria is mostly Sunni whereas Iran is Shia. What about all the other Sunni countries out there - especially those that have substantial wealth like Saudi Arabia.
Why do Hammond and May keep posturing on this? Are there massive amounts of votes to be won? Or is there an underlying issue that we haven't got enough infrastructure to cope with net 300k of immigrants each year (the size the city of Cardiff apparently needed to cope with 300k net new people).
Why does the Daily Mail everyday run a story about the migrants breaching the walls of fortress Europe?
Is there a real issue that UK will become a Muslim country if lets in all these young male immigrants and then they bring in their extended family and that their resultant families will have very high birth rates - hence eventually turning the UK Muslim? Or again is this just scaremongering by right wing press?
Is it really a problem that British people/culture who have lived in these islands from the last Ice Age - could suddenly become the Minority in the space of a few years - without any democratic consultation? Who ever asked the British people that 8m foreign born people would suddenly arrive in the UK? In contrast what would size of UK population have been if 8m hadn't turned up? Would our population gone into decline? Also will we find that the immigrants are actually a lot nicer than the people we actually grow up and currently reside with?
To be honest I am undecided - I am not sure if there if there is a fundamental issue or whether being hoodwinked by the right wing elite and associated right wing press?
I do think world population will rise and rise - that will lead to even more poor people and assume they will want to emigrate to richer nations. I also feel that UK already has a high population density - so uncomfortable with population increasing even more. I understand our population is forecast to increase naturally to about 70m as people live 10% longer.
Do think our relatively high overseas aid budget (compared to other nations) should countinue to assist developing and poor countries to bring their standard of living up. Hope it is not being spent on military aid and/or to protect our vested interests. |
"Is it really a problem that British people/culture who have lived in these islands from the last Ice Age - could suddenly become the Minority in the space of a few years - without any democratic consultation?"
I think you're attempting to answer your own question there or are you fishing? But OK I'll bite and say that the worst thing this country ever did was allow the uncontrolled immigration of the Angles, Jutes , Saxons and French and I speak as a true blooded Celt - I think. | |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:19 - Sep 2 with 1497 views | longlostjack |
And don't get me started on the Vikings | |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:26 - Sep 2 with 1486 views | Darran |
I wonder why Merkel is talking about introducing border controls?
I'm sure people on here make things up just to suit their f*cking argument. |  |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:29 - Sep 2 with 1484 views | Bloodyhills |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:26 - Sep 2 by Darran |
I wonder why Merkel is talking about introducing border controls?
I'm sure people on here make things up just to suit their f*cking argument. |
What things do you think people have made up? Am curious. | |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:37 - Sep 2 with 1471 views | Darran |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:29 - Sep 2 by Bloodyhills |
What things do you think people have made up? Am curious. |
The bit that Germany are some shining light when it comes down to refugees,go read the news they're clearly starting to get frightened about being overrun with them.
They might have been happy in the past but it can't possibly go on for ever. [Post edited 2 Sep 2015 0:39]
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 01:01 - Sep 2 with 1451 views | skippyjack |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:26 - Sep 2 by Darran |
I wonder why Merkel is talking about introducing border controls?
I'm sure people on here make things up just to suit their f*cking argument. |
it's hilarious.. why don't saudi arabia and other countries help out?.. they're supplying f*cking ISIS with weapons ffs.. why aren't the European Union doing enough?.. too busy befriending the Saudi's!.. I bet they're having bets like in rat race.. how long will ISIS last when we send in our forces? 16 days! 21 days! 23 days 28 days! 37 days! You prince? 18 days!
I'm sitting here laughing my tits off.. |  |
| The awkward moment when a Welsh Club become the Champions of England.. shh
The Swansea Way.. To upset the odds. | | Poll: | Best Swans Player |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 12:02 - Sep 2 with 1389 views | lovejuicejack |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 00:15 - Sep 2 by Bloodyhills |
This. Am sure a lot won't let the facts get in the way of their biggotry, those who are happy to see drowned children floating around in the med. Sometimes I am embarrassed by the lack of humanity shown by fellow fans. |
Exactly, I was disgusted to see pictures of children washing up on the beach like bits of drift wood. This government is doing exactly what the nazis did against the Jews when they call people immigrants, no they are not immigrants they are f**cking human beings like you and me.
When your mate down the road emmigates to Spain or Oz for a better job they are congratulated and envied, the hypocrisy is massive. | | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 12:04 - Sep 2 with 1381 views | lovejuicejack |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 01:01 - Sep 2 by skippyjack |
it's hilarious.. why don't saudi arabia and other countries help out?.. they're supplying f*cking ISIS with weapons ffs.. why aren't the European Union doing enough?.. too busy befriending the Saudi's!.. I bet they're having bets like in rat race.. how long will ISIS last when we send in our forces? 16 days! 21 days! 23 days 28 days! 37 days! You prince? 18 days!
I'm sitting here laughing my tits off.. |
You'll find its the UK USA supplying Saudi the weapons in the first place. | | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 12:12 - Sep 2 with 1370 views | Rico1983 |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 18:53 - Sep 1 by lovejuicejack |
Here is some hard facts not media propaganda to cover up the government and banks causing the economic problems. Perch I'll let you off this one as I know you can't read.
When you’re facing the world’s biggest refugee crisis since the second world war, it helps to have a sober debate about how to respond. But to do that, you need facts and data — two things that the British migration debate has lacked this summer. Theresa May got the ball rolling in May, when she claimed on Radio 4 that the vast majority of migrants to Europe are Africans travelling for economic reasons. The media has followed suit, one example being the Daily Mail’s unsubstantiated recent assertion that seven in 10 migrants at Calais will reach the UK.
Foreign secretary Philip Hammond this week not only repeated May’s claims about African economic migrants, but portrayed them as marauders who would soon hasten the collapse of European civilisation. Hammond, like many people, could do with some actual statistics about the migration crisis. Here are 10 of the key ones:
62%
Far from being propelled by economic migrants, this crisis is mostly about refugees. The assumption by the likes of Hammond, May and others is that the majority of those trying to reach Europe are fleeing poverty, which is not considered by the international community as a good enough reason to move to another country. Whereas in fact, by the end of July, 62% of those who had reached Europe by boat this year were from Syria, Eritrea and Afghanistan, according to figures compiled by the UN. These are countries torn apart by war, dictatorial oppression, and religious extremism — and, in Syria’s case, all three. Their citizens almost always have the legal right to refuge in Europe. And if you add to the mix those coming from Darfur, Iraq, Somalia, and some parts of Nigeria — then the total proportion of migrants likely to qualify for asylum rises to well over 70%.
1%
If you read the British press, you’d think that Calais was the major battleground of the European migrant crisis, and that Britain was the holy grail of its protagonists. In reality, the migrants at Calais account for as little as 1% of those who have arrived in Europe so far this year. Estimates suggest that between 2,000-5,000 migrants have reached Calais, which is between 1% and 2.5% of the more than 200,000 who have landed in Italy and Greece. Just as importantly, there is no evidence to suggest that as many as seven in 10 have reached Britain after arriving in Calais. The Daily Mail admitted this several paragraphs into its article.
0.027%
Hammond said that the migrants would speed the collapse of the European social order. In reality, the number of migrants to have arrived so far this year (200,000) is so minuscule that it constitutes just 0.027% of Europe’s total population of 740 million. The world’s wealthiest continent can easily handle such a comparatively small influx.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos.
A young Syrian refugee in the Greek island of Kos. Photograph: YANNIS BEHRAKIS/REUTERS
1.2 million
There are countries with social infrastructure at breaking point because of the refugee crisis — but they aren’t in Europe. The most obvious example is Lebanon, which houses 1.2 million Syrian refugees within a total population of roughly 4.5 million. To put that in context, a country that is more than 100 times smaller than the EU has already taken in more than 50 times as many refugees as the EU will even consider resettling in the future. Lebanon has a refugee crisis. Europe — and, in particular, Britain — does not.
Migration crisis quiz: can you separate fact from fiction?
Read more
£36.95
Many claim that Britain is a coveted destination for migrants because of its generous benefits system. Aside from the reality that most migrants have little prior knowledge of the exact nature of each European country’s asylum system, it is not true that the UK is particularly beneficent. Each asylum seeker in Britain gets a meagre £36.95 to live on (and they are not usually allowed to work to supplement this sum). In France, whose policies are supposedly driving up the numbers at Calais, migrants actually receive substantially more. According to the Asylum Information Database, asylum seekers in France receive up to £56.62 a week. Germany and Sweden — the two most popular migrant destinations — pay out £35.21 and £36.84 a week respectively, only fractionally less than Britain.
50%
In the dog-whistle rhetoric of Hammond and Theresa May, the archetypal contemporary migrant in Europe is from Africa. But again, that’s not true. This year, according to UN figures, 50% alone are from two non-African countries: Syria (38%) and Afghanistan (12%). When migrants from Pakistan, Iraq and Iran are added into the equation, it becomes clear that the number of African migrants is significantly less than half. Even so, as discussed above, many of them — especially those from Eritrea, Darfur, and Somalia — have legitimate claims to refugee status.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June.
Royal Marines with migrants rescued off the Libyan coast in June. Photograph: Rowan Griffiths/Daily Mirror/PA
4%
Last autumn, the EU opted to suspend full-scale maritime rescue operations in the Mediterranean in the belief that their presence was encouraging more migrants to risk the sea journey from Libya to Europe. In reality, people kept on coming. In fact, there was a 4% year-on-year increase during the months that the rescue missions were on hiatus. Over 27,800 tried the journey in 2015, or died in the attempt, until operations were reinstated in May, according to figures from the International Organisation for Migration. Only 26,740 tried it in 2014. The disparity suggests that migrants were either unaware of the rescue operations in the first place, or simply unbothered by their suspension — a thesis borne out by my own interviews. “I don’t think that even if they decided to bomb migrant boats it would change peoples’ decision to go,” said Abu Jana, a Syrian I met as he was planning to make the sea voyage earlier this year.
Swarms, floods and marauders: the toxic metaphors of the migration debate
David Shariatmadari
Read more
25,870
Contrary to the perception of the UK as the high altar of immigration, it is not a particularly major magnet for refugees. In 2014, just 25,870 people sought asylum in the UK, and only 10,050 were accepted. Germany (97275), France (68500), Sweden (39,905) and Italy (35,180) were all far more affected. When the ratings are calculated as a proportion to population size, the UK slips even further down the table — behind Belgium, Holland and Austria. If the ratings were calculated on 2015 rates, then even impoverished Greece would rise above the UK in the table. Just as tellingly, the UK has welcomed just 187 Syrians through legal mechanisms at the last count. Turkey has around 1.6 million.
€11bn
Hammond and David Cameron argue that the solution to migration is to increase deportations. They believe this will save Britain money, as less cash will be spent on paying each asylum seeker £36.95 per week. However, this strategy ignores the cost of deportations — whose alleged financial cost could rival that of the asylum seekers’ benefits bill. According to a series of investigations by the website The Migrant Files, as many as €11bn have been spent on repatriating migrants to their countries of origin since 2000. A further billion has been blown on Europe-wide coordination efforts to secure European borders — money that could have been spent on integrating migrants into European society.
-76,439
Despite the hysteria, the number of refugees in the UK has actually fallen by 76,439 since 2011. That’s according to Britain’s Refugee Council, which crunched the numbers gleaned from UN data and found that the number of refugees in the UK fell from 193,600 to 117,161 in the past four years. By comparison, the proportion of refugees housed by developing countries in the past 10 years has risen, according to the UN, from 70% to 86%. Britain could be doing far more. |
GREAT post. | | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 12:14 - Sep 2 with 1368 views | lovejuicejack |
Also documented evidence the isis being trained by the cia, yeah I know, bullsh*t I hear you cry, hmm who else was on the cia payroll, sadam, bin liner, noreaga. | | | |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 13:22 - Sep 2 with 1336 views | Flashberryjack |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 09:48 - Sep 1 by yescomeon |
The "problem" is more European migrants not refugees. If Saddam and Gaddafi had not been toppled this situation would not be as bad as it is. |
Is correct...good old Saddam and Gaddafi would have kept order by torture and murder, then it wouldn't be Europe's problem.
If every family in Britain with a spare room took in at least one refugee the problem would of where to put them would be solved. |  |
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| Well done bundesliga fans on 13:30 - Sep 2 with 1329 views | yescomeon |
| Well done bundesliga fans on 13:22 - Sep 2 by Flashberryjack |
Is correct...good old Saddam and Gaddafi would have kept order by torture and murder, then it wouldn't be Europe's problem.
If every family in Britain with a spare room took in at least one refugee the problem would of where to put them would be solved. |
I in no way imply that their methods are palatable but they kept stability. Iraq and Lybia are now actually hotbeds for terrorism and Lybia is now the gateway to Europe.
Funny you should say that actually, the people of Iceland are doing just that
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-01/thousands-of-icelanders-offer-to-take-syrian- | |
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