| Did Jesus exist? on 12:18 - Apr 16 with 898 views | Shaky |
| Did Jesus exist? on 11:46 - Apr 16 by E20Jack |
Where have I said the man did not exist? And where did I say that he now does? There is not enough reliable evidence that points to either. Although as I clearly stated the actions are more important that the existence of a man, there are 7 billion people existing today, existing is not the crux of the matter, is it?
I am not an atheist. There is no title for not believing in something. If I told you I can turn myself into a bird on command, would you believe me? Probably not. That doesn't make you pigeon holed into a title. If you were to pigeon hole me then I would be an agnostic atheist who probably be the most accurate. There is not a scrap of evidence of the son of God, if there is I I'll look at it. It isn't impossible for someone who holds this opinion tonhave a changing or faltering point of view, it is a constant and will remain constant because you cannot prove something that doesn't exist.
Where have I abused anybody that believes in Christianity? Or any religion for that matter? I have responded to you in the tone you have responded to me. Except the evidence is on my side. I have been extremely patient considering what you are trying to proclaim.
You are missing the point regarding the creation. If some christians believe one thing and others believe something else and another group believe something else and so on and so on, then that clearly shows a microcosm of religion in general. And there are 3000 to choose from. Due to the lack of any sort of evidence, people who even claim to belong to the same religion believe in completely different things. It isn't not an original religion is has become one made by modern man and the interpretation of the person at that specific time. When there is not a scrap of evidence, what makes your version correct? If you are a Christian then surely you deny the existence and foundation of the Muslim religion - isn't that a bit hypocritical.
Why the earth was created isn't important. Because you do not accept the scientific theory based on actual evidence doesn't really give credence to then believe in something with none. If you were born in the Middle East we would probably be having the same conversation with you proclaiming the existence of Allah and the prophet Mohammed, If you were born into a Scientologist family you would be proclaiming aliens created us. Why is religion so regional if it hasn't any foundation what so ever? Where as scientific fact is a constant no matter where you were born and is proven on a daily basis - common sense suggests what may be the more reliable theory. |
"You are missing the point regarding the creation. If some christians believe one thing and others believe something else and another group believe something else and so on and so on, then that clearly shows a microcosm of religion in general."
That's rich!
It is exactly like science, with multiple competing theories or dare I say myths about what happened before the big bang. Does that mean all of the them are invalid? Your argument is nonsensical.
And to go back to the point I made earlier, if you take Christianity in its purest form - namely the teachings of Jesus - he doesn't elaborate on the origins of creation at all.
Indeed he was mainly concerned with how we should lead our lives and the nature of God.
That left quite a few holes to fill out in the move toward a comprehensive theology, and an instance of that is actually documented in one of the more interesting NT passages in Acts of the Apostels (can't remember which bit, sorry).
This involved a dispute before the Council of Jerusalem about the proselytising of Paul in Asia Minor, ostensibly concerning circumcision but really about whether a precondition for being a Christian was that you were also a Jew.
Bottom line is they clearly didn't have a good answer becasue Jesus never said anything abnout it, so the resolution was a classic political fudge. No, you didn't have to be circumcised, but you did have obey the 10 commandments, and right there you have the start of Church officials representing orthodoxy filling in the blanks, like say the Old Testament slotting in at the front of the bible.
The pont being be careful whether you are taking issue with the purported word of God, or with the words of men attempting to fill out a crossword puzzle with 90% of the clues missing. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:19]
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| Did Jesus exist? on 12:30 - Apr 16 with 884 views | E20Jack |
| Did Jesus exist? on 12:18 - Apr 16 by Shaky |
"You are missing the point regarding the creation. If some christians believe one thing and others believe something else and another group believe something else and so on and so on, then that clearly shows a microcosm of religion in general."
That's rich!
It is exactly like science, with multiple competing theories or dare I say myths about what happened before the big bang. Does that mean all of the them are invalid? Your argument is nonsensical.
And to go back to the point I made earlier, if you take Christianity in its purest form - namely the teachings of Jesus - he doesn't elaborate on the origins of creation at all.
Indeed he was mainly concerned with how we should lead our lives and the nature of God.
That left quite a few holes to fill out in the move toward a comprehensive theology, and an instance of that is actually documented in one of the more interesting NT passages in Acts of the Apostels (can't remember which bit, sorry).
This involved a dispute before the Council of Jerusalem about the proselytising of Paul in Asia Minor, ostensibly concerning circumcision but really about whether a precondition for being a Christian was that you were also a Jew.
Bottom line is they clearly didn't have a good answer becasue Jesus never said anything abnout it, so the resolution was a classic political fudge. No, you didn't have to be circumcised, but you did have obey the 10 commandments, and right there you have the start of Church officials representing orthodoxy filling in the blanks, like say the Old Testament slotting in at the front of the bible.
The pont being be careful whether you are taking issue with the purported word of God, or with the words of men attempting to fill out a crossword puzzle with 90% of the clues missing. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:19]
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Which conflicting scientific theories are you referring to? It is impossible to answer without specifics. Science does not conflict itself, you are probably talking about scientists rather than science - they are not one and the same. It is impossible for science to conflict science. Scientific theory is the same as religious theory in a sense that it is the persons view, however all scientific theory will be based on fact and what we know. Religion intrinsically conflicts religion, none of which is based on fact, there in lies the difference and the point made.
I have not taken issue with anything. You seem more offended by my non believing in the unprovable divinity than I am of anybody choosing to believe in the opposite. The burden of proof is not on me, the burden of proof is on someone who claims something to exist.
Feel free to put forward any evidence you may have of divinity and I will most certainly consider it. However the evidence must be actual evidence and not the sort of evidence all the other 3000 religions have as that negates the validity by definition considering the stand point of all of these religions toward the other. I am open to learn. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:34]
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| Did Jesus exist? on 12:39 - Apr 16 with 872 views | Shaky |
| Did Jesus exist? on 12:30 - Apr 16 by E20Jack |
Which conflicting scientific theories are you referring to? It is impossible to answer without specifics. Science does not conflict itself, you are probably talking about scientists rather than science - they are not one and the same. It is impossible for science to conflict science. Scientific theory is the same as religious theory in a sense that it is the persons view, however all scientific theory will be based on fact and what we know. Religion intrinsically conflicts religion, none of which is based on fact, there in lies the difference and the point made.
I have not taken issue with anything. You seem more offended by my non believing in the unprovable divinity than I am of anybody choosing to believe in the opposite. The burden of proof is not on me, the burden of proof is on someone who claims something to exist.
Feel free to put forward any evidence you may have of divinity and I will most certainly consider it. However the evidence must be actual evidence and not the sort of evidence all the other 3000 religions have as that negates the validity by definition considering the stand point of all of these religions toward the other. I am open to learn. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:34]
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See:
A) (eg) http://www.space.com/31192-what-triggered-the-big-bang.html
B) http://strangebeautiful.com/other-texts/popper-logic-scientific-discovery.pdf | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 12:39 - Apr 16 with 875 views | E20Jack |
I am now going for a nice lunch in Stratford and take in the sights of the Olympic Park, so if I don't reply immediately please don't see that as an opportunity to start stirring the religious pot and throwing out goading barbs. I am simply going to choose to enjoy they afternoon with family (the people that the egomaniac God said you must love less than him or not be allowed into heaven).
"Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
Nice | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 12:42 - Apr 16 with 868 views | Shaky |
| Did Jesus exist? on 12:30 - Apr 16 by E20Jack |
Which conflicting scientific theories are you referring to? It is impossible to answer without specifics. Science does not conflict itself, you are probably talking about scientists rather than science - they are not one and the same. It is impossible for science to conflict science. Scientific theory is the same as religious theory in a sense that it is the persons view, however all scientific theory will be based on fact and what we know. Religion intrinsically conflicts religion, none of which is based on fact, there in lies the difference and the point made.
I have not taken issue with anything. You seem more offended by my non believing in the unprovable divinity than I am of anybody choosing to believe in the opposite. The burden of proof is not on me, the burden of proof is on someone who claims something to exist.
Feel free to put forward any evidence you may have of divinity and I will most certainly consider it. However the evidence must be actual evidence and not the sort of evidence all the other 3000 religions have as that negates the validity by definition considering the stand point of all of these religions toward the other. I am open to learn. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:34]
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And one more thing. I did not at any stage claim that the divinity of Christ is provable.
All I said is the arguments you put forward to deny it were strawmen. | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 12:42 - Apr 16 with 871 views | E20Jack |
Thanks I will have a look a this that on my return. I assume it will be conflicting scientific theory based on the same scientific facts (which is the constant and the point made) but will examine when I am back.
If you could also put forward your evidence of divinity and why there is more actual tangiable proof of Christianity being the Devine religion over any other of the 3000 then I will also look forward to reading that too. Always open to learn. | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 12:43 - Apr 16 with 866 views | E20Jack |
| Did Jesus exist? on 12:42 - Apr 16 by Shaky |
And one more thing. I did not at any stage claim that the divinity of Christ is provable.
All I said is the arguments you put forward to deny it were strawmen. |
I have not put any argument across to deny it. You cannot deny something that there is no proof of it existing in the first place. Any "attempt" to deny the founder of any of the other religions is also similar (of which you I assume do). How do you deny the existence of Thor and Zeus? Or even the abominable snowman for that matter. You can't - yet you can be sure 99.9% of Christians do deny them which often flies in the face of their moral compass regarding the denying of their own. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:48]
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| Did Jesus exist? on 18:38 - Apr 16 with 817 views | Al_Bundy |
Question - Is there a spiritual world ? |  | | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 20:29 - Apr 16 with 782 views | jesushchrist |
"For what shall It profit a man, If he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul"
It's a shame that kunt Jenkins didn't listen to my wise words back in the day. | | | |
| Did Jesus exist? on 20:37 - Apr 16 with 775 views | LeonWasGod |
| Did Jesus exist? on 12:18 - Apr 16 by Shaky |
"You are missing the point regarding the creation. If some christians believe one thing and others believe something else and another group believe something else and so on and so on, then that clearly shows a microcosm of religion in general."
That's rich!
It is exactly like science, with multiple competing theories or dare I say myths about what happened before the big bang. Does that mean all of the them are invalid? Your argument is nonsensical.
And to go back to the point I made earlier, if you take Christianity in its purest form - namely the teachings of Jesus - he doesn't elaborate on the origins of creation at all.
Indeed he was mainly concerned with how we should lead our lives and the nature of God.
That left quite a few holes to fill out in the move toward a comprehensive theology, and an instance of that is actually documented in one of the more interesting NT passages in Acts of the Apostels (can't remember which bit, sorry).
This involved a dispute before the Council of Jerusalem about the proselytising of Paul in Asia Minor, ostensibly concerning circumcision but really about whether a precondition for being a Christian was that you were also a Jew.
Bottom line is they clearly didn't have a good answer becasue Jesus never said anything abnout it, so the resolution was a classic political fudge. No, you didn't have to be circumcised, but you did have obey the 10 commandments, and right there you have the start of Church officials representing orthodoxy filling in the blanks, like say the Old Testament slotting in at the front of the bible.
The pont being be careful whether you are taking issue with the purported word of God, or with the words of men attempting to fill out a crossword puzzle with 90% of the clues missing. [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 12:19]
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Er, it's not exactly like science. Science is a method of establishing concensus through repeated and repeatable observations or measurements (facts). Faith doesn't require evidence at all. One is a method, the other a belief system.
They're not remotely similar. |  | | |
| Did Jesus exist? on 20:42 - Apr 16 with 770 views | Jack_Meoff |
| Did Jesus exist? on 18:38 - Apr 16 by Al_Bundy |
Question - Is there a spiritual world ? |
Do you mean pre or post death? Having spent a number of decades on this planet I'm not even sure there's life before death... |  |
| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 20:55 - Apr 16 with 765 views | rock1n |
Why is there such an obsession with slating someones religious beliefs these days. Im not strongly religious but I did attend Church this morning with some of my family. It was a lovely few hours people being nice to one another being told to do good works, sing, be good to one another, advocate peace.
These people are not crazy they just go about their daily lives, they watch the swans etc
If you dont believe in God fine I just happen to believe there must be more to life than the latest gadget or x factor.
Happy Easter |  |
| The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 21:06 - Apr 16 with 752 views | Flashberryjack |
| Did Jesus exist? on 20:55 - Apr 16 by rock1n |
Why is there such an obsession with slating someones religious beliefs these days. Im not strongly religious but I did attend Church this morning with some of my family. It was a lovely few hours people being nice to one another being told to do good works, sing, be good to one another, advocate peace.
These people are not crazy they just go about their daily lives, they watch the swans etc
If you dont believe in God fine I just happen to believe there must be more to life than the latest gadget or x factor.
Happy Easter |
Spot on................happy Easter my friend. |  |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 21:20 - Apr 16 with 739 views | Al_Bundy |
| Did Jesus exist? on 20:42 - Apr 16 by Jack_Meoff |
Do you mean pre or post death? Having spent a number of decades on this planet I'm not even sure there's life before death... |
Both ! if this has some validation of being true then there would be a raft questions based on this thread. Not so much if Jesus is the Son of God more a case of where you end up after passing... | | | |
| Did Jesus exist? on 21:35 - Apr 16 with 737 views | Jack_Meoff |
| Did Jesus exist? on 21:20 - Apr 16 by Al_Bundy |
Both ! if this has some validation of being true then there would be a raft questions based on this thread. Not so much if Jesus is the Son of God more a case of where you end up after passing... |
The Gnostics talked of entities called Archons, who used/use humans as an energy source. A bit like the battery represented in The Matrix films. There is a theory that these multi dimensional beings wipe human minds clean after death and send them back to earth in a never ending reincarnation cycle until we learn specific lessons, gain certain knowledge, and can bypass this 'trap.' Alchemy was always an allegory - the transmutation of the soul from base lead (ignorance, profanity) into gold (knowledge, wisdom).
Something like that anyway, it's Easter Sunday, I have no work tomorrow and the wine is slipping down a treat! | |
| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 21:52 - Apr 16 with 725 views | Al_Bundy |
| Did Jesus exist? on 21:35 - Apr 16 by Jack_Meoff |
The Gnostics talked of entities called Archons, who used/use humans as an energy source. A bit like the battery represented in The Matrix films. There is a theory that these multi dimensional beings wipe human minds clean after death and send them back to earth in a never ending reincarnation cycle until we learn specific lessons, gain certain knowledge, and can bypass this 'trap.' Alchemy was always an allegory - the transmutation of the soul from base lead (ignorance, profanity) into gold (knowledge, wisdom).
Something like that anyway, it's Easter Sunday, I have no work tomorrow and the wine is slipping down a treat! |
A multi-dimension being !?! hmmm..
Wonder who that could be ... ? ... | | | |
| Did Jesus exist? on 22:20 - Apr 16 with 713 views | Jack_Meoff |
| Did Jesus exist? on 21:52 - Apr 16 by Al_Bundy |
A multi-dimension being !?! hmmm..
Wonder who that could be ... ? ... |
Ever talked to anyone who has taken DMT? | |
| If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever. |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 22:58 - Apr 16 with 694 views | E20Jack |
| Did Jesus exist? on 20:55 - Apr 16 by rock1n |
Why is there such an obsession with slating someones religious beliefs these days. Im not strongly religious but I did attend Church this morning with some of my family. It was a lovely few hours people being nice to one another being told to do good works, sing, be good to one another, advocate peace.
These people are not crazy they just go about their daily lives, they watch the swans etc
If you dont believe in God fine I just happen to believe there must be more to life than the latest gadget or x factor.
Happy Easter |
I don't think there is an obsession with it is there? It was a thread regarding Jesus and whether he existed in the form it is believed by some. People are far too precious about religion, ask the French magazine who dared draw the prophet Mohammed and were murdered as a result.
Religion is fine, if it is simply a way of being at peace with why we are here and our purpose etc, it puts peoples minds at ease and makes death easier to accept. Its fine when it is like that. However world religion isn't like that is it? The City I live in was just attacked in the name of religion and people murdered on the streets, religion is often dangerous and has killed millions of people over the years.
When in an open discussion about it, I think it is more than fair to look at the evidence these religions are founded on. People waste entire lifetimes dedicating themselves to it, they decide not to be in a relationship with people they love due to a conflict of religious beliefs. I find it fascinating that someone can know there is 3000 religions, all pretty much regional, all massively conflicting yet each one is convinced they are correct and the others are wrong while not accepting criticism of their own religious foundations while doing the exact by definition to all the others.
I follow the evidence. I got burned by that by my parents twice with the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, was convinced they were real and wouldn't be told otherwsise. Thankfully these days I am far more aware of what is fantasy and what is reality and the possible dangers of mind conditioning at an early age. | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 08:22 - Apr 17 with 633 views | Shaky |
| Did Jesus exist? on 20:37 - Apr 16 by LeonWasGod |
Er, it's not exactly like science. Science is a method of establishing concensus through repeated and repeatable observations or measurements (facts). Faith doesn't require evidence at all. One is a method, the other a belief system.
They're not remotely similar. |
You are taking my comment out of context.
E20 said that there are numerous religious creation stories and inferred that meant it was all rubbish.
I countered that there are equally various scientific theories about what happened at and before the big bang, which clearly doesn't in itself invalidate all of them.
As for your characterisation of science, clearly you did not read Karl Popper's seminal work "The Logic of Scientific Discovery" that I linked to ;-)
Had you done so you would have a much better understanding of the process and defining characteristic of science. This typically does not flow from a taking a load of measurements and then formulating science, but instead the starting point is invariably the hypothesis (read myth) that is then tested - where possible - experimentally.
What separates the scientific hypothesis from the religious myth is dogma. The formulation of the scientific hypothesis is provided with an implied invitation to falsify it and see whether somebody can come up with a better explanation of empirical facts, whereas the religious myth is traditionally sacrosanct.
However, even that argument is not as water tight as it used to be, with for example the New Age movement much more willing to abandon dogma and experiment in the pursuit of personal spiritual experiences. | |
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| Did Jesus exist? on 08:35 - Apr 17 with 622 views | Shaky |
| Did Jesus exist? on 21:35 - Apr 16 by Jack_Meoff |
The Gnostics talked of entities called Archons, who used/use humans as an energy source. A bit like the battery represented in The Matrix films. There is a theory that these multi dimensional beings wipe human minds clean after death and send them back to earth in a never ending reincarnation cycle until we learn specific lessons, gain certain knowledge, and can bypass this 'trap.' Alchemy was always an allegory - the transmutation of the soul from base lead (ignorance, profanity) into gold (knowledge, wisdom).
Something like that anyway, it's Easter Sunday, I have no work tomorrow and the wine is slipping down a treat! |
True, but there is no such thing as a homogeneous Gnostic belief system. Instead the focus was on personal spiritual enlightenment as opposed to the uniform believe system imposed by the modern Christian church, and incorporated myriad different strands; it's a shame you chose to highlight the more outlandish sounding!
For example, there was a popular strand claiming direct lineage to Jesus that denied Jesus had ever claimed to be the son of God (see the synoptic Gospels) and instead maintained he simply spoke/channelled the Word of God.
They also denied the physical resurrection and found the very concept abhorrent, seeing the flesh and material world generally as a sort of prison that enslaved and trapped the spirit. For them resurrection was an entirely spiritual process. | |
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