Saints went into this game full of confidence, but before there were 60 seconds on the clock they were a goal down and within minutes the game would be over, so why did it all go wrong, the answer is a lack of leadership on the pitch, but it always has been recently.

There were some eyebrows raised when the team was announced at 11.30am, Shea Charles who had been in the top two players in the last two matches was on the bench with Will Smallbone back in the side, up front was Sekou Mara.

But as surprising as these two changes were, they were not the reason that we lost this game and lost it so heavily, the reason that we did that was because we did not have one leader on the pitch and this showed.

Stuart Armstrong and Jan Bednarek may be senior players in the squad but they are not leaders of men, this is not a criticism as they are far from alone in that trait in this squad.

How on earth did we go a goal down after only 55 seconds, especially as we had a corner in the first 30 seconds, the answer was quite simple we piled forward like a bunch of schoolkids and left no one back on the half way line.

Russell Martin will be under fire for this but I am sure that he didn't say things like " If we have a corner all pile forward and don't worry about leaving anyone back" or " Don't worry about marking anyone" never has the old adage that when a team crosses the touchline to go on the pitch the manager is powerless.

Once again there wasn't a goal conceded where we were not fount wanting, poor marking, giving the ball away, failure to hold shape and even in the final seconds of second half added time, we couldn't keep it tight and the scoreline vaguely respectable.

Yes we didn't have the luck, one goal would have been ruled out for offside at one end, where at the other it would have awarded us a penalty, but a side should make it's own luck.

We have signed some good players in recent weeks, but from what I have seen we have once again failed to sign the one key player we need, a leader at the back.

Am I surprised ? The answer has to be no, I have been saying the same thing for the last 6 years.

Throughout most of my time watching Saints there has been a crucial factor in the side and that is a leader, Lawrie McMenemy signed Alan Ball and then left the legacy of Jimmy Case for his successor Chris Nicholl.

In contrast Ian Branfoot let Case go and we floundered, in the last dozen or so seasons we had Jose Fonte and Steven Davis, but in recent times we have had no one of that ilk and we have paid the price.

Sunderland did their homework, their gameplan was clear from the first minute, defend deep and then hoof the ball forward, the fact that this worked in the first minute was a crime, the fact that it kept working throughout the game was a mortal sin.

The worry is that if Tony Mowbray worked that out and lets face it QPR employed the same tactic last week, then you can bey your bottom dollar that most of our opponents are going to do the same.

The gist of the problem is that if you are not there you can't deal with a problem, whether it is one on one chases as the ball is hoofed forward, unmarked player in our box or a player 25 yards out with time and space to tee up his shot, they all had one thing in common and that is we had lost shape and we had player standing around watching.

Adam Armstrong was Captain on Saturday, as most will know I rate Adam Armstrong, but he is not a captain, a forward should never be a captain, they play most of their game with their back to their team mates, they can't see and direct play, it has to be a central defender or midfield player or even a full back, someone who dictates play and not flying forward.

But the problem we have is where is the leader in our squad, perhaps Will Smallbone is a potential leader, hence his restoration to the team, but he isn't ready yet, this was only his 11th start for Saints, a leader has to have experience and the respect of his team mates that comes from playing games at a high level, we have no one who meets that criteria.

Flynn Downes might be a candidate, but can you have a loan player as your captain, perhaps it's Ryan Manning, but he is struggling for his own form at present and his game is too much about attacking than holding the line.

In the centre of defence I have mentioned Jan Bednarek is not that leader, Taylor Harwood-Bellis has a bit of experience but perhaps not enough due to his tender age.

Jack Stephens was appointed captain, but how much of that was because he was the nearest that Russell Martin had in his squad that fitted the bill, but in truth I can't see Jack getting much game time if we sort out things at the back.

So this result was a shock, but not a surprise, the only surprise is that as a team we didn't learn our lessons from last week and we have certainly paid the price for that.

But rant over, we can't keep harping back to the past, they say you are only as good as your last game, that is not strictly true, I think that you are only as good as your next game, this debacles is gone now, no matter how much ranting is done it changes nothing, we won't get to replay the game and rectify our mistakes.

It is what we do next that matters, all the great Saints teams got a walloping from time to time, Lawrie McMenemy wasn't immune to his teams suffering a good beating at least once in a season, nor was Chris Nicholl, Alan Ball, Gordon Strachan, Nigel Adkins, Mauricio Pochettino or Ronald Koeman, that is not an exhaustive list, just pointing out that it seems to be a rite of passage.

All of those had one thing in common though, they put it behind them and made their teams better and stronger for it and that is what Russell Martin needs to do now.

It shouldn't be difficult, it was clear to see on Saturday where we were going wrong and our opponents seem to see we don't switch on quickly in both halves and indeed at the end of both halves.

Bizarrely all but one of the goals was scored within minutes of the start of the game, either side of half time and in injury time, for most of the game we dealt with things, we just switch off at key moments.

Conceding 12 goals in just 5 games is completely unacceptable, no one can claim otherwise, but the good news is that most of the issues around this come down to concentration, we can deal with it.

This is a blow, but it is not the end of the season, we are still in 7th place we are still only 3 points off the top of the league, there is plenty to be pleased about, one game does not define a season, we have to make sure that days like these are not that often.

Photo: Action Images

DPeps added 10:13 - Sep 4 Team selection was too arrogant. Mara and Edozie can't play together as neither is good enough defensively. Unless he's injured why not play Charles? It was too early for holgate to be drafted in. While I have no worries about our midfield or attack, our defence is still dodgy. Neither FB fills me with confidence, and a lot depends on the quality of the CB from Man City The possession based style is fine but it needs some versatility: Sunderland had us sussed and knew they could punish us on the break. Overall, I can accept this result as a bit of a freak due to the madness of the transfer window, but it does also point out some problems with RM's selections and his system

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1885_SFC added 10:21 - Sep 4 RM needs to start playing his best team and not his old mates from seasons ago.
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onetowatch added 10:26 - Sep 4 That is such a disappointing 'verdict''. Nowhere near as disappointing as the game, but if we are to remedy the fact that after 5 games we have conceded more goals than anyone else in this league, then RM must be also accountable!! SC on the bench, who in fact, imo, deserved to keep his midfield role, let alone sit on the bench behind MH in the CB position. Holgate looked so uncomfortable, being so right footed and playing on the left. No flow when playing out from the back, just turned back in and played the ball back to JB continuously. You defended RM last week Nick, stating he was his own man, letting Perraud go due a preference for Manning. No one I've spoken to can justify that decision... I was so embarrassed walking out of the stadium on Saturday. Hammered by a team that will be at best middle of the league by the end of the season. Those selections were purely those of RM. He needs to see this game as a wake up call. If not, then we will sleep walk into mediocrity, Nick you and all Saints fans, need to be more vocal in making sure RM gets the message. He came out to applaud us fans that were there just before the game...some may say an appreciated gesture....save all that for after the game. I'd rather he was in the dressing room making sure the team are well prepared from the first minute....not 1 down in less!!

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Ifonly added 10:44 - Sep 4 "How on earth did we go a goal down after only 55 seconds, especially as we had a corner in the first 30 seconds, the answer was quite simple we piled forward like a bunch of schoolkids and left no one back on the half way line." That's true, but to suggest this is not RM's fault is wrong. Positioning at set pieces is something that is decided on the training ground, not by individual players or "leaders" on the pitch. At least that's how it works at every other professional football team in the world. If SFC leave it to individuals then we are no better run than a pub team. It will take time for RM to get the team playing his way and he hasn't had enough time yet. Fair enough, but this game showed clearly how Tony Mowbray out-thought RM and got his team prepared the right way. We were a shambles and the manager has to take his hare of the blame for that.

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davidargyll added 10:51 - Sep 4 Re Mason Holgate What really puzzles and worries me is the reasoning behind RM’s gamble - because that is exactly what it was - in playing him from the start in an away fixture in an enormous and unfriendly stadium. Top managers will initially have a recent addition sitting on the bench for his first game, and except in emergencies bring him on for a bit towards the end. But in having Holgate in from the off, what he has now done is 1. Really hack Rea Charles off. 2. Knock Holgate’s confidence (which admittedly maybe no bad thing). 3. Probably cause Holgate’s first game at SMS to be a really nervy affair and even lead to the crowd getting on his back. But more than anything else this is a really worrying aspect of RM’s managerial abilities, that he takes unnecessary risks with line-ups and at the same time telling the team to play what he sees as low risk tippy-tappy football. Doesn’t add up to me…or rather it does if you see him as having rather muddled - and/or high risk - thinking, which is not quite what a team looking for promotion needs…

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IanRC added 10:52 - Sep 4 Shambolic selection and tactics. I thought you were telling us Holgate was our solution the other week Nick. Based on this performance neither he nor Manning should ever be allowed to pull on the shirt again. Downes was not much better. Charles must, like the rest of us be wondering what RM was thinking, we looked much better when he came on. Another unfashionable decision was not playing Fraser and S Armstrong together after they combined so well last week. On that subject had Fraser been told not to try to beat his man as I lost count of the number of times he turned and passed back, and this after Edozie (who missed a sitter) showed how weak that full back was. Somebody needs to get their act together and persuade Sulemana to give it a go. He would really shake up the defences. My next door Sunderland supporter tells me Ross Stewart will be great up front if fit. At present it is pointless playing this tippy tappy stuff when we have no height in the box or anyone able to pass it to one of forwards in the penalty area from wide. Our best chance presently is on breaks but the way we play there are always 11 defenders in front of us when we reach their half. On the (limited) bright side thought KWP was an example to the rest, he must be wondering why he allowed RM or JW to persuade him to stay. The rest of the team should be made to watch a video of yesterdays women’s game who actually play as a team (superb goal from Pharoph again). In fact we could do worse than to replace RM with MS-C based on these performances. I have not given up hope but RM needs to stop playing his old mates as they are clearly not good enough and sort out his tactics over the next two weeks.

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davidargyll added 10:55 - Sep 4 Shea Charles of course rather than Rea…
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Farlow added 10:55 - Sep 4 Not to pick Chez Charles was ridiculous.Ryan Manning a candidate for captain,he should not be in the team he,s garbage.Macarthy is a far better Keeper than Bazunu who has not improved a jot since he,s been here.Houlgate was 5th choice for a very poor Everton team so why did we sign him.Without Charles there was no one in midfield who could tackle.
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JoeEgg added 11:01 - Sep 4 I read your match preview Nick and totally disagreed. You claimed that we had been getting better game by game , but I suggested that we had been very lucky and played some poor sides. I thought we were shocking against QPR - but I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion! We 'may' have some promising young players, but as you RIGHTLY pointed out we lack leadership, experience and a Captain. We have just disposed of millions worth of talented and better players and replaced them with a 'pick and mlx' collection with, apparently, very ordinary ability. The reality of the current situation took one minute to reveal at Sunderland. Virtually the whole team rushing up for the corner kick leaving Edozie of all people to sort out the defence and deal with the inevitable counter attack! Leicester must be licking their lips!

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DPeps added 11:06 - Sep 4 Just to add: I'm wary of people (in life and at work) who are wedded to a particular way of doing something that is blind to specific circumstances. RM's strong attachment to the possession game therefore worries me a little because we're not Man City, and therefore opposition managers with experience (Mowbray) can predict exactly what we'll do and can target the weaker links. We need some flexibility in how we set up

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AgrellaSFC added 11:09 - Sep 4 Not going to repeat what everyone else is saying as I think it's unanimous. But KWp was terrible this game. No overlapping, no sprinting back. Yeah he did well to beat defenders and get the ball in the area towards the end but his job is defending. Smallbone and Downes had awful games, Stu Armstrong was just running side to side it seemed. Awful watch and a good kick up the ass for our entire club. Like Nick has said however, we're 3 points behind the league leaders and I'm glad this has happened early into the season. We've been found out and now we must adapt. Next 3 games will show us our actual level of quality in the squad.

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onetowatch added 11:29 - Sep 4 I really can't believe how anyone can criticise KWP on Saturday (AgrellaSFC)? He was the one player who continually showed a commitment to get the ball forward. His runs deep into their last third demonstrated reflected the urgency that was required - not panic, but urgency!! So much of our build up was so pedestrian, we made it easy for Sunderland. Yes, maybe he gambled after going a couple down and forsake some defending in an attempt to get back into the game, but he should be commended not condemned for that....

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felly1 added 11:32 - Sep 4 The mythical leader at the back to solve all our problems has popped up up once again. Who wouldnt want such a player? Unfortunately I think this has slightly more to do with the style of play if you see how many goals Swansea conceded last season playing this way. Saturday reminded me of the worse aspects of Ralphball. I appreciate every defeat this subject will be brought up time and time again as you seemed determined to never let it drop. Unfortunately the problems lies with tactics , attacking ball playing defenders , rather than out and out defenders (which don't suit Martin's style of play) A keeper who is pretty shaky and never seems to save long shots.

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saintmark1976 added 11:46 - Sep 4 In my opinion Bazunu is without doubt the worst goalkeeper I’ve ever seen put on a Saints first team shirt. I speak from experience having watched them all right the way back to Dave McClaren and Campbell Forsyth. Yes, his ball distribution may meet the current managers tippy tappy way of playing but the rest of his game is simply unacceptable. He can’t:- 1. Position himself correctly. 2. Command his box from crosses. 3. Move his feet quickly enough. 4. Instruct and direct his defence. The old saying in football is that “a keeper is only as good as the defence in front of him” Regrettably Bazunu could have VanDyke and Fonte in front of him and it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference. He’s simply not good enough and unfortunately for us never will be. As for Nick’s suggestion that Manning should be our captain. I read somewhere that there were a large number of sniffer dogs at Sunderland on Saturday.

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Heisenberg added 11:48 - Sep 4 Only one other team had conceded 12 goals this season and that is Doncaster who are bottom of the entire league. That cannot be down to lack of leadership or a poor keeper. RM has previous with organising teams that cannot defend. It is him and his coaching teams responsibility to sort this out as a priority or we have absolutely no chance of going up.
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AgrellaSFC added 11:48 - Sep 4 Onetowatch - A player that jogs back when they're counter attacking played well? His job is DEFENDING. And he didn't try to push the team up, he would do one-twos with Stu Armstrong and Mara then play back. A couple glimpses of attacking threat meant nothing. He's a class player and arguably our best but that game was his worst I've seen. Don't take it as I'm focusing on him, because everyone was shocking and most in this thread have mentioned it. Just shocked to see him, especially being one of our best current players, getting a free ride. By the time any of his attacking runs were made we were 3 or 4 down. If holgate had scored that long shot does that mean he had a good game because he was the only player to score? No, defending is their job and they didn't do their job at all.

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saintbazza added 11:52 - Sep 4 Whereas I wholeheartedly agree with you, we are desperately lacking a leader, someone who can lead by example and vocally be heard who demands respect, I do feel that a forward player can adequately do the job. the notion that a forward ' they play most of their game with their back to their team mates, they can't see and direct play' is nonsense. I used to play up front and you spend most of your time looking behind watching the play build up which enables you to choose where to position yourself! The only real time that their back is turned to their team mates is when they attack at pace. I also feel that it is possibly the best position to be a captain because in general you are wating the game more and not as frantically as defenders are when under pressure. I feel that it is only exceptional midfielders that make a good Captain becaus the ball and the players are all around himrunning about and you need to have a head like an owl to watch it all and take it in. Apart from that, another good viewpoint of the match!

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davenbennett added 11:55 - Sep 4 Been saying Martin is a one trick pony from the start! Saints would never employ and old hand like Mowbray. Has to be some smart talking guy who hasn't won anything. The system is easy to beat. Just long balls over the top. As others have pointed out, if Plymouth and QPR had better players, would have beat us doing just that. But, SR wants Martin, and to play possession based football. The whole concept is flawed. Slow build up allows sides to pack defence. But, as been pointed out. We get caught on the counter with only 2 or 3 back. Also lack of height in the team. So buy 5ft 4 winger! The problems we have MAY be solved with H-B at the back. He may be young. But was a winner at Burnley. Can he actually talk to the staff and tell them how they set up last year. Would they listen to a nipper? I was very relieved when last of quality not got rid of by SR. But now seems they might flog Sulemane to a side where transfer window is still open. But, even if he stays and scores a few, not going to be enough if defence is still a shambles. I was really shocked by thus result. Genuinely thought we were promotion prospects. All hope over within 10 mins! Be lucky to end mid table, unless Martin picks the right team, and somehow turns gutless losers into winners. Can't see it, but one can only hope!

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landsdownsaint added 12:14 - Sep 4 The absolute arrogance of our board employing an elite academy coach instead of a proper well seasoned football manager astounds me , every games like a training game , RM v Tony Mowbray theirs only one winner there
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Block8 added 12:19 - Sep 4 Lots of good comments on here but in my opinion we are no better defensively than we were under Seles. The principals are very similar keep the ball and move forward, under seles it was slowly and under Martin (supposedly) with pace? We played 3 central midfielders and a CF on the right wing. It seemed that none of the central midfielders wanted to play the holding role & neither winger wanted to work back, this did not however stop the full backs pushing forward. Just like Palace (& others) last season Sunderland left a man wide and he had enough time and space, on either wing to have a picnic. I actually felt sorry for Holgate & Bednarek as they had no cover anywhere and although Holgate had a poor game his team mates didn't make his day any easier. As for the goal from the corner such a stupid way to concede but such a simple tactic to employ (Liverpool do it with Salah). Leave a player with a bit of pace just outside your box & if the opposition don't respond by leaving two back you have a one on one? It would be nice to see a back four that plays as a back four but I'm not sure we have any full backs that know how to!

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Boris1977 added 12:23 - Sep 4 RM and sports reductive are the issues here. Away with the fairies on one hand and custodians of underwhelming lower European football league club on the other . The Norwich game was a warning for how the season will pan out whilst the Celtic clown is manager and the del boy collective own the team. Losing 5-0 to Sunderland shows how far we've fallen over the past year and listening to Swansea fans crow about RM doing to us what he did with them and their relief at him moving on is embarrassing. I'll be waiting for my club to come out of the malaise imposed by sports reductive - whatever form the club survives after their air headed experiment comes to an end. COYRs

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I_would added 12:46 - Sep 4 RM would like us to think this debacle was a fault of the players. Looks like you fell for that as well Nick. Problem is the manager is not only stupid and ignorant but arrogant with it. There will be no progress ever with this clown unfortunately. You can dress it up how you like, mix up the tombola choices each week and you'll get the same result each week under Mr Ignorant. RM OUT!

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kristianJ added 12:49 - Sep 4 Despite enduring the long trip and a poor display I am still willing to give RM the benefit of the doubt. There some simple lessons to learn going forward: 1. Play Shea Charles in DM. He is clearly one of our best players and this is his best position. 2. Play H-B alongside Bednarek at CB. Whilst Holgate didn’t have much prep time, he was awful on Saturday and his performances at Everton suggest he should be back up rather than a starter. 3. Do not play Mara on the wing. We have plenty of others who could play there (Fraser, Stu or Sam A-A). Mara is not a winger nor good enough to be in the starting XI. Finally a shout out to the away following- they were magnificent in the 2nd half!

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DellBoyWally added 12:51 - Sep 4 My previous contributions, whilst people were getting excited that we won some games and were giving me negative responses, were that we are going to concede a hat-full and it'll take a team 2 minutes to suss us out. I did say a decent team would destroy us. It took a half-decent team to do so! I've been slamming RM's tactics, along with JoeEgg, et all. We've fluked results so far but this was always on the cards. With KWP being hopeless at RB (I marked him the worst player which is something considering Manning played!) we effectively have a 2 man defence! Unless we're in possession when we have a 10 man defence! And a short-sighted GK who can't see someone shooting from 20 yards away. I had high hopes for Smallbone this year but that hasn't happened. Downes was bought 'cos he knows RM's tactics. Unfortunately Tony Mowbray knew them better! And where was the offence, when we got that far. 3 attempts for most of the game until a late flurry of desperate panic. Leicester must be looking at beating their record goals in a game!!!! Currently 9 in case you need reminding. Someone in The Echo referred to RM as Nathan Jones 2!! Sadly, not far wide of the mark.

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Chickendippers added 13:04 - Sep 4 Some people are comparing us to Burnley. Maybe they should be comparing us to Swansea?
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