| An honest answer from you guys... 00:16 - Dec 12 with 2678 views | Dr_Parnassus |
I have asked this before but never really got an answer.
Lets say Cooper signed a new contract after the play-off final and said, ''Right, I want to change how we play now and the board are giving me 5m to facilitate it because we have freed up some salary''.
After 22 games, performing identical to how we have done so far. That means results, identical, performances identical - everything kick for kick the same...
What do you think the reaction would be? Be honest.
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 00:35 - Dec 12 with 1932 views | Chief |
He'd have absolutely been hounded out. |  |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 00:50 - Dec 12 with 1917 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 00:35 - Dec 12 by Chief |
He'd have absolutely been hounded out. |
That is my conclusion too.
I have absolutely no doubt about it at all, he would have been slaughtered. | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 01:17 - Dec 12 with 1896 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
Cooper would receive louder boos after a draw at home whilst fighting for automatic promotion than Russell Martin receives after results and performances like today.
Too many Swansea City supporters are easily bought through cheap words in press conferences. Our fan base has been conditioned to believe that high possession = exciting football.
You only have to look on here - so many believe we're more attacking than last season despite every available statistic proving otherwise.
The tide will turn soon enough. |  |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 01:34 - Dec 12 with 1893 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 01:17 - Dec 12 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
Cooper would receive louder boos after a draw at home whilst fighting for automatic promotion than Russell Martin receives after results and performances like today.
Too many Swansea City supporters are easily bought through cheap words in press conferences. Our fan base has been conditioned to believe that high possession = exciting football.
You only have to look on here - so many believe we're more attacking than last season despite every available statistic proving otherwise.
The tide will turn soon enough. |
The entertainment thing, I can sort of look past as at the end of the day I suppose it is subjective. But I certainly don't find 500 passes around our box entertaining.
It's the fact people think we dominated the opposition every time we have 70% possession that confuses me.
Dominating possession and dominating the opposition are wildly different things. Teams allow us possession, its part of every teams game plan when they play us.
We are far more of a danger to ourselves than the opposition when we have the ball in our own third - so they leave us have it and aggressively close down our passing lanes knowing we probably won't go long.
That isn't dominating the opposition and it is not a marker of a good performance, it is playing into the oppositions hands who regularly punish us as a result.
The only thing being dominated is us, regularly. | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 07:44 - Dec 12 with 1833 views | builthjack |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 00:50 - Dec 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
That is my conclusion too.
I have absolutely no doubt about it at all, he would have been slaughtered. |
Why wasn't Cooper given the £2.5million he asked for, to bring in a goal scoring centre forward? That baffles me, as that's what we needed to finish the job off last season. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:16 - Dec 12 with 1812 views | Thornburyswan |
If that had happened after the first season play-off loss & he shown the playing/style progress in the 20/21 season - even if we hadn’t made the play-off final - then I believe he’d still be with us.
The second half of the 20/21 season playing style, horrific play-off final attempt (or lack thereof) & continual repetition at pre/post match interviews meant there was no real option - I suspect empty stadiums helped him survive to the season end.
We had to go our separate ways. |  | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:54 - Dec 12 with 1775 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:16 - Dec 12 by Thornburyswan |
If that had happened after the first season play-off loss & he shown the playing/style progress in the 20/21 season - even if we hadn’t made the play-off final - then I believe he’d still be with us.
The second half of the 20/21 season playing style, horrific play-off final attempt (or lack thereof) & continual repetition at pre/post match interviews meant there was no real option - I suspect empty stadiums helped him survive to the season end.
We had to go our separate ways. |
But he wasn’t given anything to spend. If people are excusing Martin for not being able to play this way despite spending £5m this year then what chance did you expect Cooper to have?
Empty stadiums or not, there is zero chance the club would have sacked him for coming 4th with that squad prior to the end of the season. Would have been sheer lunacy.
Let’s not forget that the difference between the first half of the season and the second half of the season was only 6pts. | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:54 - Dec 12 with 1773 views | Whiterockin |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:16 - Dec 12 by Thornburyswan |
If that had happened after the first season play-off loss & he shown the playing/style progress in the 20/21 season - even if we hadn’t made the play-off final - then I believe he’d still be with us.
The second half of the 20/21 season playing style, horrific play-off final attempt (or lack thereof) & continual repetition at pre/post match interviews meant there was no real option - I suspect empty stadiums helped him survive to the season end.
We had to go our separate ways. |
Nail hit bang on the head. |  |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:54 - Dec 12 with 1768 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 07:44 - Dec 12 by builthjack |
Why wasn't Cooper given the £2.5million he asked for, to bring in a goal scoring centre forward? That baffles me, as that's what we needed to finish the job off last season. |
Agreed, they tried to be clever with the American off season loans.
With a Piroe who knows what would have happened. | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:07 - Dec 12 with 1748 views | Thornburyswan |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:54 - Dec 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
But he wasn’t given anything to spend. If people are excusing Martin for not being able to play this way despite spending £5m this year then what chance did you expect Cooper to have?
Empty stadiums or not, there is zero chance the club would have sacked him for coming 4th with that squad prior to the end of the season. Would have been sheer lunacy.
Let’s not forget that the difference between the first half of the season and the second half of the season was only 6pts. |
Wasn’t about the spending & nothing to do with Martin - we just became very difficult to beat & unfortunately very difficult to watch (unless you were ok with watching via Jeff & the soccer Saturday coverage!).
Plus after the loss to Brentford Cooper either believed or had his head turned - I suspect he was aware of some fan frustration & limited available budget too - & from what I’ve been told genuinely believed he’d get a bigger/better job. | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:14 - Dec 12 with 1730 views | Catullus |
Cooper would have been hounded for sure. Whether he would have been sacked I don't know. Martin has only had this time from me because he was a new manager with a new plan.
I've been fairly patient, I've waited, I've seen progress until the last few weeks. Now I will say it, Martin has to learn, has to do something different because our trajectory has changed. Yesterday we had a high possession stat again but we did very little with it. The insistence on short passing, even in our own last third, is killing us.
I'll say this about Cooper too, he's a decent manager but I have to ask why he went so negative last season? Was it that he knew he wanted to leave because players would be sold and he wouldn't be allowed to sign who he wanted? I ask that after seeing him speak on the EFL show after the game, his comment about players being sold. Had Cooper had enough of us before we'd had enough of him? | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:16 - Dec 12 with 1719 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:07 - Dec 12 by Thornburyswan |
Wasn’t about the spending & nothing to do with Martin - we just became very difficult to beat & unfortunately very difficult to watch (unless you were ok with watching via Jeff & the soccer Saturday coverage!).
Plus after the loss to Brentford Cooper either believed or had his head turned - I suspect he was aware of some fan frustration & limited available budget too - & from what I’ve been told genuinely believed he’d get a bigger/better job. |
Not sure what you mean by nothing to do with spending?
If it’s nothing to do with spending then why have we given Martin £5m worth of signings and why are we suggesting he needs more transfer windows to spend even more before a more attractive style can be played successfully?
That’s what we are discussing here. People wanted a more attractive style played under Cooper, yet he didn’t have the funds available to bring in the players to be able to do it. He made the best of what he had and made it work, that’s a managers job, to manager the circumstances.
We can’t on one hand say he had to leave because he couldn’t get us an attractive style on £1m a year when we are also conceding that Martin can’t after spending £5m and earmarked for more.
Can’t have it both ways. It’s either possible to do cheaply or it isn’t.
If it isn’t possible to do cheaply then I’m not quite sure what can be levelled and Cooper.
If it is possible to do cheaply then I don’t understand why we aren’t expecting better levels of performance after spending £5m. | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:36 - Dec 12 with 1686 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:14 - Dec 12 by Catullus |
Cooper would have been hounded for sure. Whether he would have been sacked I don't know. Martin has only had this time from me because he was a new manager with a new plan.
I've been fairly patient, I've waited, I've seen progress until the last few weeks. Now I will say it, Martin has to learn, has to do something different because our trajectory has changed. Yesterday we had a high possession stat again but we did very little with it. The insistence on short passing, even in our own last third, is killing us.
I'll say this about Cooper too, he's a decent manager but I have to ask why he went so negative last season? Was it that he knew he wanted to leave because players would be sold and he wouldn't be allowed to sign who he wanted? I ask that after seeing him speak on the EFL show after the game, his comment about players being sold. Had Cooper had enough of us before we'd had enough of him? |
Because our strength was defence. We didn’t have a striker.
We were trying to convert a winger there and also had a forward there. But neither of them are out and out strikers, number 9’s, this is what Cooper was shouting from the rooftops for in order to attack the second half of the season.
What did we get? Freeman, Hamer, two American loans and Hourihane on loan - not a striker between them, anything but.
But yes nobody can deny Cooper anymore. Forest are top of the league if the season started after Houghton left, without a pre season, without the ability to bring anyone of his own in, a team devoid of confidence rock bottom of the league and with a matter of days to implement his ideas.
Martin may not be a bad manager, but he really needs a jolt and a wake up call. He’s far too stuck in his ways, you can tell that by the way he freezes out players who potentially aren’t completely sold on his tactics.
QPR away next marking the halfway point of the season - which is going to be tough. If we set up the same way, insisting to go short at every opportunity suggesting nothing is being learned, then it’s going to be tough to keep my backing for much longer.
The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
It’s all well and good the club being committed to a change of style but there is a way to go about it. If we don’t have the players to do it yet then we should be playing an adapted version of it. As it stands it just extremely brainless and isn’t showing anybody in a good light whatsoever. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 9:39]
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:54 - Dec 12 with 1652 views | Thornburyswan |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:16 - Dec 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
Not sure what you mean by nothing to do with spending?
If it’s nothing to do with spending then why have we given Martin £5m worth of signings and why are we suggesting he needs more transfer windows to spend even more before a more attractive style can be played successfully?
That’s what we are discussing here. People wanted a more attractive style played under Cooper, yet he didn’t have the funds available to bring in the players to be able to do it. He made the best of what he had and made it work, that’s a managers job, to manager the circumstances.
We can’t on one hand say he had to leave because he couldn’t get us an attractive style on £1m a year when we are also conceding that Martin can’t after spending £5m and earmarked for more.
Can’t have it both ways. It’s either possible to do cheaply or it isn’t.
If it isn’t possible to do cheaply then I’m not quite sure what can be levelled and Cooper.
If it is possible to do cheaply then I don’t understand why we aren’t expecting better levels of performance after spending £5m. |
Not sure what it is you don’t get from my post but to answer your points :-
1. Your initial ‘honest answer please guys’ request made no reference to spending our Martin hence I left that out.
2. Spending money & attractive style are not necessarily linked it’s an approach from the manager & coaching style plus in the eye of the beholder - Arsenal back in the day, Chelsea under Mourinho for example spent plenty but did not overly focus on ‘attractive style’. So Cooper focused on getting results from the players he had & could bring in regardless of how that looked to the fans - we are in a results business so I get that, in simple terms managers don’t usually lose their jobs from winning games regardless of how they look.
3. Interestingly I do not think RM is trying to deliver an ‘attractive style’ he is trying to deliver his vision of how football should be played in a possession based high press style - yes played well that is attractive e.g, Man City, Liverpool, Barca etc but clearly much more difficult to do at a lower level without wholesale squad changes & very competent coaching & leadership, all of which the jury is out on right now.
All that said it is relatively common for new managers to be immediately better supported in £££ terms than the previous incumbent, that’s generally how football works.
& has Keith has pointed out on several threads RM - at least for now - has very strong ownership support from our American friends, Winter & Allen. They have been more impressed with him since he arrived than they were at interview & initial assessment point. | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 10:14 - Dec 12 with 1632 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:54 - Dec 12 by Thornburyswan |
Not sure what it is you don’t get from my post but to answer your points :-
1. Your initial ‘honest answer please guys’ request made no reference to spending our Martin hence I left that out.
2. Spending money & attractive style are not necessarily linked it’s an approach from the manager & coaching style plus in the eye of the beholder - Arsenal back in the day, Chelsea under Mourinho for example spent plenty but did not overly focus on ‘attractive style’. So Cooper focused on getting results from the players he had & could bring in regardless of how that looked to the fans - we are in a results business so I get that, in simple terms managers don’t usually lose their jobs from winning games regardless of how they look.
3. Interestingly I do not think RM is trying to deliver an ‘attractive style’ he is trying to deliver his vision of how football should be played in a possession based high press style - yes played well that is attractive e.g, Man City, Liverpool, Barca etc but clearly much more difficult to do at a lower level without wholesale squad changes & very competent coaching & leadership, all of which the jury is out on right now.
All that said it is relatively common for new managers to be immediately better supported in £££ terms than the previous incumbent, that’s generally how football works.
& has Keith has pointed out on several threads RM - at least for now - has very strong ownership support from our American friends, Winter & Allen. They have been more impressed with him since he arrived than they were at interview & initial assessment point. |
1. My question was regarding Cooper ending the playoff final season by stating he would make an overhaul and everything that happened under Martin’s reign would be identical to Coopers from that point on, and asking what the levels of support would be for him.
- you answered that question by saying we were right to get rid of him because we played bad football at the end of the 20/21 season, stating that empty stadiums kept him in a job. So the question wasn’t really answered.
I responded stating that of course the football wasn’t traditionally attractive because he was making the best of what he had, which was a squad with very limited transfer fees made available to add to it. So if we are now saying Martin is unable to play this way despite spending £5m and wanting him to spend even more - then how can we judge Cooper for also not achieving a successful and attractive style of play?
2. Spending and success are almost entirely correlated. Technically limited squads are cheaper than technically sound squads, hence why the best teams tend to play good football and the rest in the league attempt to compete with physicality.
If we want an attractive and successful style of play then apart from the odd anomaly then the players we will need to bring in won’t be cheap. Long gone are the days of Rangel for 10k.
3. Martin is definitely trying to play an attractive style. If he wanted to play the game how it should be played (the point of football is winning) then he would adopt a more sensible approach which suits the players we have at our disposal.
It’s all well and good the club being committed to a change but there is a way of going about things. Bulldozing your way through when it isn’t working isn’t one of those ways. I happen to believe if this continues that support will certainly be tested.
Regardless of sound bites, what we have seen this season can not be called impressive under anyone’s interpretation of the word.
We are 16th. | |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 10:57 - Dec 12 with 1590 views | Thornburyswan |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 10:14 - Dec 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
1. My question was regarding Cooper ending the playoff final season by stating he would make an overhaul and everything that happened under Martin’s reign would be identical to Coopers from that point on, and asking what the levels of support would be for him.
- you answered that question by saying we were right to get rid of him because we played bad football at the end of the 20/21 season, stating that empty stadiums kept him in a job. So the question wasn’t really answered.
I responded stating that of course the football wasn’t traditionally attractive because he was making the best of what he had, which was a squad with very limited transfer fees made available to add to it. So if we are now saying Martin is unable to play this way despite spending £5m and wanting him to spend even more - then how can we judge Cooper for also not achieving a successful and attractive style of play?
2. Spending and success are almost entirely correlated. Technically limited squads are cheaper than technically sound squads, hence why the best teams tend to play good football and the rest in the league attempt to compete with physicality.
If we want an attractive and successful style of play then apart from the odd anomaly then the players we will need to bring in won’t be cheap. Long gone are the days of Rangel for 10k.
3. Martin is definitely trying to play an attractive style. If he wanted to play the game how it should be played (the point of football is winning) then he would adopt a more sensible approach which suits the players we have at our disposal.
It’s all well and good the club being committed to a change but there is a way of going about things. Bulldozing your way through when it isn’t working isn’t one of those ways. I happen to believe if this continues that support will certainly be tested.
Regardless of sound bites, what we have seen this season can not be called impressive under anyone’s interpretation of the word.
We are 16th. |
I’ll just add a couple of points as I actually think we are broadly agreeing but it’s around the interpretation of what that means & what should happen now/next where we differ.
1. Very difficult to be factual on point 1 as IF Cooper had stayed & received your £5M then clearly he would have made changes - as every single manager does - so we would have a different squad, style & approach. From that point on we are guessing but from all reports Piroe would have been our Ayew replacement & suspect Lowe would have stayed (so no Pato) & I suspect Cooper would have pushed hard for Woodman which w/o the Lowe funds would have left us with loans & frees from that point. Ntcham is a difficult call as he quotes talking to Martin but clearly Allen was the main playing in bringing him in.
2. If that had happened I believe our style would have been marginally improved & we would likely be sitting in the top 10 now on the fringes of the play-offs - likely that for the fans that would be ok but not anything to get too excited about.
3. Martin could coach his side to play that way I guess but he clearly does not believe in that so he is sticking to his way - he is the gaffer with his own coaching team so that is his call, ultimately he will succeed or fail on that call. Right now he’s a lot closer to failing than succeeding. I won’t comment on how we can/cannot judge Cooper as that is history & he is no longer at our club so I have little interest in it.
4. Agree spending & success are success are very heavily correlated - although will be interesting to see how that works up in Newcastle but spending & attractive style are a lot more loosely tied - spending will get you there more quickly but good coaching & smart recruitment can get you there over time.
5. Finally agree that doing it the current RM way is painful & could not be described as impressive so far - despite the fact that for me there were times in the first half, particularly when Downes stepped forward, & also in the second when we were 0-2 & 1-2 down that we played so good stuff & looked genuinely the better side - so I guess, like the last 40 years, I’m with the Swans for the journey & I know this will sound bizarre to some but I broadly enjoyed the game yesterday, obviously not the result but 1-4 was very harsh on how we played. | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 11:25 - Dec 12 with 1569 views | 3swan |
Was there more to John Eustace changing his mind | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 11:44 - Dec 12 with 1553 views | GeoffThom |
Cooper is having it right off to be fair with a side that's spent millions to go up but failed
The side forest had on paper was miles better than us today and cooper exploited our non pace with his pace |  | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 11:46 - Dec 12 with 1551 views | GeoffThom |
Cooper is having it right off to be fair with a side that's spent millions to go up but failed
The side forest had on paper was miles better than us today and cooper exploited our non pace with his pace
He did OK with us but we would never go any further with a team of loans not ours
Li think a lot of us at the start of the season were originally resigned to him staying as it was all up in the air at the time | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 11:58 - Dec 12 with 1532 views | dobjack2 |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 08:54 - Dec 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
But he wasn’t given anything to spend. If people are excusing Martin for not being able to play this way despite spending £5m this year then what chance did you expect Cooper to have?
Empty stadiums or not, there is zero chance the club would have sacked him for coming 4th with that squad prior to the end of the season. Would have been sheer lunacy.
Let’s not forget that the difference between the first half of the season and the second half of the season was only 6pts. |
I think that your argument ignores the loan signings that Cooper had and I don't think they came cheap. Also he had Ayew. | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 12:22 - Dec 12 with 1503 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 11:58 - Dec 12 by dobjack2 |
I think that your argument ignores the loan signings that Cooper had and I don't think they came cheap. Also he had Ayew. |
Loan signings are just that, borrowed. Just like we are borrowing Williams and Laird off Liverpool and Man Utd respectively. Most of them were free or very low fees, they wanted to send them to Cooper as he has a track record of developing them - Brewster for example was fee.
Ayew is a good player but he doesn’t really fit in the system. You don’t automatically get to the playoffs just because Ayew sits in your team.
He didn’t have Ayew when he took over at Forest. They are now top of the league if you take away their time under Houghton this year.
If it’s that easy to play effective winning and attractive football by getting some loan signings in… then why hasn’t Martin? [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 12:23]
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 13:33 - Dec 12 with 1458 views | dobjack2 |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 12:22 - Dec 12 by Dr_Parnassus |
Loan signings are just that, borrowed. Just like we are borrowing Williams and Laird off Liverpool and Man Utd respectively. Most of them were free or very low fees, they wanted to send them to Cooper as he has a track record of developing them - Brewster for example was fee.
Ayew is a good player but he doesn’t really fit in the system. You don’t automatically get to the playoffs just because Ayew sits in your team.
He didn’t have Ayew when he took over at Forest. They are now top of the league if you take away their time under Houghton this year.
If it’s that easy to play effective winning and attractive football by getting some loan signings in… then why hasn’t Martin? [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 12:23]
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Martin has permanent signings, some his, some before he arrived. Cooper had top prospect loans and Ayew. I think it could be argued that Cooper had better players to work with on that comparison.
When Cooper left the question was did he feel that was the best he could do with the players he had. We didn't turn up for the play-off final but why Cooper left, I doubt if we'll ever really know.
As to your last question real football isn't football manager. Martin has a way that he wants to play but doesn't have the players he needs to play it.
If he gets the players he needs in this window he'll continue with the system and coaching and developing the players who are still here. If he doesn't get those players then he will have a decision to make about the way we play. The way he wants to play isn't new and opposing managers know where to attack it especially if there are square pegs in round holes. | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 13:50 - Dec 12 with 1442 views | magicdaps10 |
It's a pointless question!
Cooper is not here and Martin is. I think we should be asking the question as we stand, what is needed to get the team picking up points again... I can give the answer.
We need a goaly, couple of defenders and a creative player or 2. |  |
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| An honest answer from you guys... on 13:52 - Dec 12 with 1434 views | Thornburyswan |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 13:50 - Dec 12 by magicdaps10 |
It's a pointless question!
Cooper is not here and Martin is. I think we should be asking the question as we stand, what is needed to get the team picking up points again... I can give the answer.
We need a goaly, couple of defenders and a creative player or 2. |
Agree as long as they bring some pace with them, that’s both the defenders & at the creative end. | | | |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 09:09 - Dec 14 with 1211 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| An honest answer from you guys... on 13:50 - Dec 12 by magicdaps10 |
It's a pointless question!
Cooper is not here and Martin is. I think we should be asking the question as we stand, what is needed to get the team picking up points again... I can give the answer.
We need a goaly, couple of defenders and a creative player or 2. |
Pointless because we both know the answer…
Cooper would be slaughtered for playing like this. | |
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