| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. 10:22 - Apr 30 with 3603 views | NOTRAC |
Assuming we can hang on to those we want in our present squad,is there a need for more than perhaps two new signings to move forward next year.
Our present squad was enlarged to cover the Europa Cup adventure, and I really believe our biggest problem this year was the necessity of having to use the squad rotation system
Now that we are back to a settled squad selection our results and performances have improved considerably.The main beneficiary has undoubtedly been Bony who has improved dramatically since Monk took over and has selected him from the start in just about every game.
If Michu can come back to match fitness and Taylor shows that he can cover for Rangel at right full back,I suggest the only positions that need new signings is goalkeeper and central defender to play alongside Ashley Williams.
If we go for quality rather than quantity in our signings I feel we could have a very successful season next year. |  |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:06 - Apr 30 with 866 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 14:53 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
Joel has made 22 La Liga/Premier League appearances. A keeper like him would be fine. Absolutely worlds apart from Dai Cornell.
Like I said, nobody is calling for Vorm's head but we need another goalkeeper this summer. When I say experience, it doesn't have to mean a 38 year old 'keeper like Schwarzer, just any 'keeper that's played a run of games in top-level football. In fact I'd prefer someone younger to develop behind Vorm. Tremmel is 35 years old and not very good. He shouldn't be here next season. |
So you're saying a vastly average Vorm who has much more game time under his belt but Tremmel who has hardly had an opportunity in the league is not very good and should go? |  |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:07 - Apr 30 with 866 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 14:48 - Apr 30 by C_jack |
Again, I ask the plausibility of signing somebody that is here purely to 'push' and 'challenge' Vorm, which is a lovely idea in principle, but not realistic. If Vorm is not good enough for his place, then he will be replaced.
IMO, GK are either number one, or number two. You can't have your cake and eat it, to borrow the cliche. They are not as easily transferable as outfield players.
Fulham have hardly been the beacon of stability this season, so I'll take your comparison with a pinch of salt. That whole team was on dire form, and then inevitably the manager who signed MS is out the door, not to mention the preceding one as well. He's on his arse now but I'm confident he'll be commanding a starting spot next season, at Fulham or elsewhere. |
How on earth is it not realistic? It's a good way of improving the performance at the GK position which has been poor this past season. Vorm has made several costly mistakes and suffered through a period of terrible form that we couldn't do anything about.
In our first Prem season we bought two goalkeepers: Moreira for £800k and Vorm for £1.5m. Both came with a good pedigree and to challenge for the #1 spot. Vorm was the superior and was the starter and Moreira sat behind him.
Vorm is hardly the unquestioned #1 goalkeeper like he was in his first season. Even Tremmel managed to temporarily oust him as the starting goalkeeper. If I were a young 'keeper I'd quite fancy my chances to compete and ultimately win the starting GK berth here. Vorm made lots of mistakes last season and should expect stiff competition for his place. Tremmel doesn't provide that.
I can't understand why you find this concept so difficult. It's done at almost every other Premier League club. |  |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:10 - Apr 30 with 861 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:06 - Apr 30 by Brynmill_Jack |
So you're saying a vastly average Vorm who has much more game time under his belt but Tremmel who has hardly had an opportunity in the league is not very good and should go? |
We know Vorm has the ability of a world class goalkeeper in him somewhere. I've never seen that from Tremmel. He's a 35 year old journeyman whose main asset was his dependability rather than his ability to make fantastic saves. Now that his dependability is under question, due to his several significant errors last season, I can't see any reason to keep him. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:13 - Apr 30 with 854 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:10 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
We know Vorm has the ability of a world class goalkeeper in him somewhere. I've never seen that from Tremmel. He's a 35 year old journeyman whose main asset was his dependability rather than his ability to make fantastic saves. Now that his dependability is under question, due to his several significant errors last season, I can't see any reason to keep him. |
I still believe we'd have progressed further in the Europa League if Vorm had played in the group games. Tremmel cost us 1st place which would have given us easier ties in the knockout rounds. |  |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:15 - Apr 30 with 850 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:13 - Apr 30 by DwightYorkeSuperstar |
I still believe we'd have progressed further in the Europa League if Vorm had played in the group games. Tremmel cost us 1st place which would have given us easier ties in the knockout rounds. |
It was a devastating error. Chances are we'd have had a much easier draw if it wasn't for that cock up. What a shame. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:52 - Apr 30 with 827 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:15 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
It was a devastating error. Chances are we'd have had a much easier draw if it wasn't for that cock up. What a shame. |
And no one else was at fault in either of the Rubin games or St Gallen?
When Tremmel came in for Vorm while he was injured we conceded less. But let's not let the facts get in the way of your character assassination ! | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:08 - Apr 30 with 809 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:52 - Apr 30 by Brynmill_Jack |
And no one else was at fault in either of the Rubin games or St Gallen?
When Tremmel came in for Vorm while he was injured we conceded less. But let's not let the facts get in the way of your character assassination ! |
It's not a character assassination. I have no agenda other than wanting a good standard of play at the goalkeeper position.
It's crass to compare number of goals conceded when comparing 'keepers and you know that. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:13 - Apr 30 with 802 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:52 - Apr 30 by Brynmill_Jack |
And no one else was at fault in either of the Rubin games or St Gallen?
When Tremmel came in for Vorm while he was injured we conceded less. But let's not let the facts get in the way of your character assassination ! |
Tremmel made a number of costly errors that directly cost us points. Vorm has been absolute pants this season yet neither Laudrup or Monk will drop him for Tremmel, which is no coincidence. Neither have faith in him to perform well week in week out, he had his opportunity and he blew it.
His form last season is irrelevant. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:42 - Apr 30 with 792 views | C_jack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 15:07 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
How on earth is it not realistic? It's a good way of improving the performance at the GK position which has been poor this past season. Vorm has made several costly mistakes and suffered through a period of terrible form that we couldn't do anything about.
In our first Prem season we bought two goalkeepers: Moreira for £800k and Vorm for £1.5m. Both came with a good pedigree and to challenge for the #1 spot. Vorm was the superior and was the starter and Moreira sat behind him.
Vorm is hardly the unquestioned #1 goalkeeper like he was in his first season. Even Tremmel managed to temporarily oust him as the starting goalkeeper. If I were a young 'keeper I'd quite fancy my chances to compete and ultimately win the starting GK berth here. Vorm made lots of mistakes last season and should expect stiff competition for his place. Tremmel doesn't provide that.
I can't understand why you find this concept so difficult. It's done at almost every other Premier League club. |
It's unrealistic, because there is no 'challenge' and 'competition' as you suggest. You get your place when the guy in front makes an error/gets injured. That's the hard truth of the position. How else do you achieve it? It's no more a challenge than a moment of slim opportunity. At this level, they are not being selected on their performance stats in training.
If Vorm is good enough, he's the starter. If, as you state, he is not the unquestioned #1, then he should be replaced. It really is that cut-throat. Keepers don't play better because there's someone on the bench waiting for them to make an error either, its a nice idea though. Form will always go up and down.
If you think Vorm really came here to challenge for the #1 spot with Moreira, then I almost admire your naivety. I don't think Moreira played a game, so where did the supposed challenge come from, the pre-game shooting practice? Going by your ideology, they should have had an equal run of games to prove their worth.
Interestingly, I hear whispers Man City are looking to replace Joe Hart, not bring in another keeper to 'challenge him' and almost devilishly fool him into playing better.
Almost every other PL club? How many below 10 is that? |  |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:56 - Apr 30 with 773 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:42 - Apr 30 by C_jack |
It's unrealistic, because there is no 'challenge' and 'competition' as you suggest. You get your place when the guy in front makes an error/gets injured. That's the hard truth of the position. How else do you achieve it? It's no more a challenge than a moment of slim opportunity. At this level, they are not being selected on their performance stats in training.
If Vorm is good enough, he's the starter. If, as you state, he is not the unquestioned #1, then he should be replaced. It really is that cut-throat. Keepers don't play better because there's someone on the bench waiting for them to make an error either, its a nice idea though. Form will always go up and down.
If you think Vorm really came here to challenge for the #1 spot with Moreira, then I almost admire your naivety. I don't think Moreira played a game, so where did the supposed challenge come from, the pre-game shooting practice? Going by your ideology, they should have had an equal run of games to prove their worth.
Interestingly, I hear whispers Man City are looking to replace Joe Hart, not bring in another keeper to 'challenge him' and almost devilishly fool him into playing better.
Almost every other PL club? How many below 10 is that? |
How on earth can you say there's no competitive element when there's been cases of goalkeepers being replaced by teammates who have outperformed them and that begins on the training field.
We're not going to bring in a goalkeeper and hand him a starting position. The two split time in pre-season and are viewed in training and THEN the manager picks his unquestioned number 1 who is only replaced because of form or injury.
Moreira played the whole of pre-season, mate. He didn't play a game because he was outperformed by Vorm. I don't know how you struggle to understand this.
When you have a good goalkeeper who is suffering from poor form you bring in some competition, not necessarily a replacement and the goalkeeper that's brought in doesn't have to be the finished article. It's why United bought Lindegaard and gave him a run of games when De Gea suffered. Look at De Gea now. [Post edited 30 Apr 2014 16:57]
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 17:37 - Apr 30 with 752 views | Jokeren1943 |
Think Vorm is an average Premier League and nothing more.
Kasper Schmeichel is a good keeper. Backup keeper in United Lindegaard is also a fantastic keeper.
Would rather have 2 fantastic players this time (who can really reinforce the squad), then 4 average players this summer. [Post edited 30 Apr 2014 17:39]
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 18:05 - Apr 30 with 725 views | C_jack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:56 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
How on earth can you say there's no competitive element when there's been cases of goalkeepers being replaced by teammates who have outperformed them and that begins on the training field.
We're not going to bring in a goalkeeper and hand him a starting position. The two split time in pre-season and are viewed in training and THEN the manager picks his unquestioned number 1 who is only replaced because of form or injury.
Moreira played the whole of pre-season, mate. He didn't play a game because he was outperformed by Vorm. I don't know how you struggle to understand this.
When you have a good goalkeeper who is suffering from poor form you bring in some competition, not necessarily a replacement and the goalkeeper that's brought in doesn't have to be the finished article. It's why United bought Lindegaard and gave him a run of games when De Gea suffered. Look at De Gea now. [Post edited 30 Apr 2014 16:57]
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So Moreira was outperformed in a couple of middling friendlies in pre season, and that was that? If he was truly competing for a place, wouldn't he have been given a chance in least one league game? Sounds fairer, or perhaps there was a pre-conceived thought that Vorm was the main man.
That's a complete fallacy, so you're saying every season the goalkeeper has to prove himself as the number 1? lovely idea again, but nonsense. Only circumstance that you start the season without a strong idea of who's your number 1 is if your top keeper leaves without replacement.
Anyone who comes in this summer is not competing with Vorm for his place, because they won't be good enough, if they were, they'd be replacing him.
It's all psychology and placebo's really, it's barmy (but has been done) to drop your keeper at the first sign of poor form without letting them ride through it. It's not a position that should get tinkered with heavily using an in-out-in process.
Also, a slight flaw in your argument is that Lindeegard was bought near a year before De Gea. So the idea that he was 'bought' to improve a poorly performing De Gea, is a bit umm.. impossible without a time machine. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 18:31 - Apr 30 with 706 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 16:56 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
How on earth can you say there's no competitive element when there's been cases of goalkeepers being replaced by teammates who have outperformed them and that begins on the training field.
We're not going to bring in a goalkeeper and hand him a starting position. The two split time in pre-season and are viewed in training and THEN the manager picks his unquestioned number 1 who is only replaced because of form or injury.
Moreira played the whole of pre-season, mate. He didn't play a game because he was outperformed by Vorm. I don't know how you struggle to understand this.
When you have a good goalkeeper who is suffering from poor form you bring in some competition, not necessarily a replacement and the goalkeeper that's brought in doesn't have to be the finished article. It's why United bought Lindegaard and gave him a run of games when De Gea suffered. Look at De Gea now. [Post edited 30 Apr 2014 16:57]
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If a no.1 keeper makes a howler and their form dips for the next couple of games then the no.2 comes in and has a go . I honestly can't think of a no.2 ousting a no.1 because of how they're performing in training . Vorm 's weakness has been under the high ball , Tremmel seems to cope better with them. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 18:38 - Apr 30 with 685 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 18:05 - Apr 30 by C_jack |
So Moreira was outperformed in a couple of middling friendlies in pre season, and that was that? If he was truly competing for a place, wouldn't he have been given a chance in least one league game? Sounds fairer, or perhaps there was a pre-conceived thought that Vorm was the main man.
That's a complete fallacy, so you're saying every season the goalkeeper has to prove himself as the number 1? lovely idea again, but nonsense. Only circumstance that you start the season without a strong idea of who's your number 1 is if your top keeper leaves without replacement.
Anyone who comes in this summer is not competing with Vorm for his place, because they won't be good enough, if they were, they'd be replacing him.
It's all psychology and placebo's really, it's barmy (but has been done) to drop your keeper at the first sign of poor form without letting them ride through it. It's not a position that should get tinkered with heavily using an in-out-in process.
Also, a slight flaw in your argument is that Lindeegard was bought near a year before De Gea. So the idea that he was 'bought' to improve a poorly performing De Gea, is a bit umm.. impossible without a time machine. |
They play hours of football every day in training which is what you're failing to see. Competition for places won't leak in to the season. Moreira was brought in at the start of the summer and our coaching staff had a full pre-season to assess him. He wasn't some punk off the street he had 112 appearances for Benfica to his name. Vorm was bought later on in the pre-season (August time I think) and clearly made an immediate impact and established himself as the starter. We paid around £1m for Moreira and £1.5 for Vorm. We didn't just buy Moreira for that much only to replace him. They were both assessed, Rodgers selected Vorm as his #1 and the rest is history. If Vorm was brought in and was found to be sh*te then Moreira would have been #1.
Go read the Everton forum and see what they're saying about Howard/Robles. Howard had to prove himself as the #1 this year. Competition for places isn't any difference for goalkeepers and I don't know why you're denying it. You're hiding behind this archaic idea that "ew don't muck 'bout with ewre 'keepers".
That was a bad example. How about this one? Jaaskelainen is the consensus #1 at West Ham. Has an outstanding 2012/2013 season and is the runner-up for POTY. In the summer a fresh face is brought in (Adrian) NOT AS A REPLACEMENT. He's compe-f*cking-tition. Allardyce drops Jaaskelainen seemingly unhappy with his performances for Adrian and that's that. The same thing happened with JJ and Adam Bogdan actually.
You keep denying it though, butt.
"Anyone who comes in this summer is not competing with Vorm for his place"
Yep I just don't see how you can say that and that's the first I've ever heard of it. Sounds like something from a Jonathan Wilson book really. I know you fancy yourself as a cutting edge thinker C_jack but you're not making a lot of sense here.
I have to say I am bemused as to why you're mentioning placebos on a discussion about goalkeepers. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 19:33 - Apr 30 with 668 views | C_jack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 18:38 - Apr 30 by Drizzy |
They play hours of football every day in training which is what you're failing to see. Competition for places won't leak in to the season. Moreira was brought in at the start of the summer and our coaching staff had a full pre-season to assess him. He wasn't some punk off the street he had 112 appearances for Benfica to his name. Vorm was bought later on in the pre-season (August time I think) and clearly made an immediate impact and established himself as the starter. We paid around £1m for Moreira and £1.5 for Vorm. We didn't just buy Moreira for that much only to replace him. They were both assessed, Rodgers selected Vorm as his #1 and the rest is history. If Vorm was brought in and was found to be sh*te then Moreira would have been #1.
Go read the Everton forum and see what they're saying about Howard/Robles. Howard had to prove himself as the #1 this year. Competition for places isn't any difference for goalkeepers and I don't know why you're denying it. You're hiding behind this archaic idea that "ew don't muck 'bout with ewre 'keepers".
That was a bad example. How about this one? Jaaskelainen is the consensus #1 at West Ham. Has an outstanding 2012/2013 season and is the runner-up for POTY. In the summer a fresh face is brought in (Adrian) NOT AS A REPLACEMENT. He's compe-f*cking-tition. Allardyce drops Jaaskelainen seemingly unhappy with his performances for Adrian and that's that. The same thing happened with JJ and Adam Bogdan actually.
You keep denying it though, butt.
"Anyone who comes in this summer is not competing with Vorm for his place"
Yep I just don't see how you can say that and that's the first I've ever heard of it. Sounds like something from a Jonathan Wilson book really. I know you fancy yourself as a cutting edge thinker C_jack but you're not making a lot of sense here.
I have to say I am bemused as to why you're mentioning placebos on a discussion about goalkeepers. |
I know our scouting network isn't the stuff of national envy, but do you think they needed pre season to assess whether they were found to be "s**te?" Moreira must have been gutted to have been guaranteed so much, and thrown on the scrap heap the way he was. Pre season and done.
So you're telling me Adrian is not a replacement for JJ, who is near 40 years old?  I think you're losing context. He is going to have to prove himself every season just to continue playing the game professionally, that's the nature of his age. You're comparing this to Vorm is who in the prime of his career, and is a starter wherever he goes. Same with Howard is who coming towards the end of his career. Vorm has 10 years on JJ, and 6 on Howard, not as vulnerable as the two examples you have presented.
Competition is incredibly different for goalkeepers, there is 1 sole spot, no matter the formation, completely different dynamic. Nothing cutting edge about that!
The point I'm trying to emphasise to you, is that it's very hard to bring in anyone of any true quality that can 'challenge' him and give him the placebo of 'competition' (a psychological benefit reinforcing positive expectation) as you suggest, because if they did, they'd be commanding the number one spot themselves, and wouldn't be waiting for slim opportunities.
Why don't you suggest a few names who, in your opinion are going to be willing to come in, and really deliver this proposed 'competition' that you are discussing? I can only think of names that are either better, or who I see as being nowhere near as good, so maybe you can assist in finding the middle ground.
Perhaps that was phrased poorly, "IMO, whoever comes in this summer is not likely to sustain a challenge to Vorm's place in the starting line up" Is that better?
Ohh we're edging away from the crux of the argument now, thanks for coming. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 19:43 - Apr 30 with 662 views | Drizzy |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 19:33 - Apr 30 by C_jack |
I know our scouting network isn't the stuff of national envy, but do you think they needed pre season to assess whether they were found to be "s**te?" Moreira must have been gutted to have been guaranteed so much, and thrown on the scrap heap the way he was. Pre season and done.
So you're telling me Adrian is not a replacement for JJ, who is near 40 years old? I think you're losing context. He is going to have to prove himself every season just to continue playing the game professionally, that's the nature of his age. You're comparing this to Vorm is who in the prime of his career, and is a starter wherever he goes. Same with Howard is who coming towards the end of his career. Vorm has 10 years on JJ, and 6 on Howard, not as vulnerable as the two examples you have presented.
Competition is incredibly different for goalkeepers, there is 1 sole spot, no matter the formation, completely different dynamic. Nothing cutting edge about that!
The point I'm trying to emphasise to you, is that it's very hard to bring in anyone of any true quality that can 'challenge' him and give him the placebo of 'competition' (a psychological benefit reinforcing positive expectation) as you suggest, because if they did, they'd be commanding the number one spot themselves, and wouldn't be waiting for slim opportunities.
Why don't you suggest a few names who, in your opinion are going to be willing to come in, and really deliver this proposed 'competition' that you are discussing? I can only think of names that are either better, or who I see as being nowhere near as good, so maybe you can assist in finding the middle ground.
Perhaps that was phrased poorly, "IMO, whoever comes in this summer is not likely to sustain a challenge to Vorm's place in the starting line up" Is that better?
Ohh we're edging away from the crux of the argument now, thanks for coming. |
We'll have to agree to disagree there, C_jack. The Chelsea game is on and my dinner is ready.
For the record a player like Joel or Adrian would be perfect this summer. Considering the peak age for 'keepers is often in their 30s I don't see how Vorm should feel safe after his performance this season. | |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 19:44 - Apr 30 with 660 views | Dr_Winston |
Other than cover for Wilf (because finding someone better than him will be hard work) any player we bring in this summer must be acquired with a view to becoming the new first choice for their position. Those ousted will add depth to the squad and enable us to jettison the deadwood. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 07:27 - May 1 with 591 views | shandyjack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 17:37 - Apr 30 by Jokeren1943 |
Think Vorm is an average Premier League and nothing more.
Kasper Schmeichel is a good keeper. Backup keeper in United Lindegaard is also a fantastic keeper.
Would rather have 2 fantastic players this time (who can really reinforce the squad), then 4 average players this summer. [Post edited 30 Apr 2014 17:39]
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average gPL oalkeeper in an average PL team. Shocker |  |
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| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 12:58 - May 1 with 533 views | premierjack |
| Quality rather than quantity needed in signings for next year. on 13:02 - Apr 30 by shandyjack |
agree with you on Lowton and Naughton but completly disagree with you on Snodgrass and Borini.
Snodgrass - Not better that what we have but is on a par and being left fotted offers a different option to either getting own the bi-line on the left and wipping in a good cross or coming in from the right ala WR on the left and getting a shot in. Also a good set piece taker.
Borini - He has been playing some great stuff down Sunderland this season and if available for loan or 7m and less i would snap Liverpools hands off. Could also play out wide if needed |
Yeah I take you point on snodgrass as I'm 50/50 with him.
But with borini, he won't play as a striker for us, his goal scoring record isn't good enough either. Then ppl say he can also play out wide but instead of our wingers we have now?? I don't think so!
We won't spend the money needed to get him when he will sit on the bench and if he has any ambition he won't want to come to be a back up striker/ winger. He reminds me of welbeck at Utd - a very good player in a few positions but not good enough to be a star player in one position! | | | |
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