| Immigration 11:57 - May 26 with 9638 views | donkeylabour |
Can someone explain something to me because it has puzzled me for a long time.
Net Immigration last year 330k
Within that Net increase from EU 180k
From outside the EU 188K
Why do we in perpetuum bang on about EU migration, where this IS an economic benefit to the Country as the immigrants tend to be younger, in work and more mobile.
Non EU migration we have issues in terms of assimilation, language problems, huge families in which the women tend not to work, much higher levels of unemployment.
The UKIP types are always banging on about immigrants and it doesn't take a genius to know what they mean *nudge nudge, wink wink* why all this obsessing about a EU migrants.
BTW Net Immigration is too high, unless we spend sh1t loads of infrastructure and demolish our green belt something has to give. |  |
| My father voted labour and his father voted labour and his father voted labour so I vote labour |
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| Immigration on 13:41 - May 27 with 1840 views | Flashberryjack |
| Immigration on 11:22 - May 27 by donkeylabour |
Tommy why do you think there's been a lot of problem with floods?
In any case why would you want to destroy our green belt? |
Don't be bringing common sense into this debate. |  |
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| Immigration on 14:11 - May 27 with 1824 views | A_Fans_Dad |
Going back to the Ops original question about EU v Non EU immigrants.
Non EU immigrants are vetted they have to show that they can support themselves, have a job or are students.
EU immigrants are not vetted, (only illegals) and do not need a job.
The problem is that anyone accepted in to the EU is then also allowed access in to the UK. With the numbers of so called "refugees", who are actually Economic Migrants coming in to the EU, nobody knows their true backgrounds, whether they are OK, or , rapists, terrorists etc.
Most of the NHS is not supported by EU immigrants, they are mostly Asian, Phillipinos etc.
The private "care" market however is supported by a lot of EU migrants.
There is a big fallacy about Migrants contributing to the Economy, if they are correctly employed they pay taxes, if they are not (which applies to a lot of them) then they do not. But the big problem with the contribution argument is that those coming from poor countries send a large percentage of the money they earn back home, where it is considered a "fortune". That cash has left the UK for good, it is not recycled in our economy.
The TV program recently showed this and on top of that EU citizens can register their children here for Child Support, even though the children immediately go back home.
As to Students, some of them owe Universities a lot of money, £52M at the last count.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/425990/Foreign-student-runaways-leave-behind-a- |  | | |
| Immigration on 14:28 - May 27 with 1793 views | Highjack |
| Immigration on 12:52 - May 27 by jojaca |
Control your borders, pick the best migrants to come into the country. I don't see Swansea picking up third rate footballers from Europe, we try and pick the best within our budget. They would not want some 32 year old fourth division footballer from Turkey forced on us. |
The club are happy enough to use them for cheap labour in the catering areas around the ground though. |  |
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| Immigration on 14:34 - May 27 with 1802 views | LeonisGod |
| Immigration on 14:11 - May 27 by A_Fans_Dad |
Going back to the Ops original question about EU v Non EU immigrants.
Non EU immigrants are vetted they have to show that they can support themselves, have a job or are students.
EU immigrants are not vetted, (only illegals) and do not need a job.
The problem is that anyone accepted in to the EU is then also allowed access in to the UK. With the numbers of so called "refugees", who are actually Economic Migrants coming in to the EU, nobody knows their true backgrounds, whether they are OK, or , rapists, terrorists etc.
Most of the NHS is not supported by EU immigrants, they are mostly Asian, Phillipinos etc.
The private "care" market however is supported by a lot of EU migrants.
There is a big fallacy about Migrants contributing to the Economy, if they are correctly employed they pay taxes, if they are not (which applies to a lot of them) then they do not. But the big problem with the contribution argument is that those coming from poor countries send a large percentage of the money they earn back home, where it is considered a "fortune". That cash has left the UK for good, it is not recycled in our economy.
The TV program recently showed this and on top of that EU citizens can register their children here for Child Support, even though the children immediately go back home.
As to Students, some of them owe Universities a lot of money, £52M at the last count.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/425990/Foreign-student-runaways-leave-behind-a- |
It's not a fallacy that migrants contribute. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the net contribution overall is positive, and some to show that those from the EU contribute most (with non-EU actually having the only negative contribution). http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk
But even then interpreting the govt figures is not straightforward, so arguments on both sides need to be tempered with a cautionary note. http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/datablog/2015/nov/10/eu-migrants-on-benefits-
The unpaid student debt is the tip of the iceberg compared to overall unpaid student debt - http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/21/student-loans-unpaid-debt-probl That's a fundamental issue about the under-resourcing of our HE sector. Whilst giving foreigners free education obviously isn't ideal it's not significant in terms of the bigger problem. |  | | |
| Immigration on 17:07 - May 27 with 1753 views | A_Fans_Dad |
Note that the Migrant Contribution link you pointed to only considers Tax as I said and makes no allowance for the actual Cash that is NOT spent in the UK economy, but is sent back to the migrants homeland to be spent there.
Quote "The net fiscal impact of immigration is typically estimated as the difference between the taxes and other contributions migrants make to public finances and the costs of the public benefits and services they receive."
That spending money is probaly at least 2 times the amount of Tax paid, so therefore represents a loss to the UK that is not included in the added value calculations.
The poorer the migrants homeland the more likely they are to be sending money home to support their families.
This is particularly true of Eastern Europens, Asians and Africans.
The Minimum Wage paid here is a massive draw for those poorer nations, as are the various Benifit Systems. | | | |
| Immigration on 17:20 - May 27 with 1743 views | LeonisGod |
| Immigration on 17:07 - May 27 by A_Fans_Dad |
Note that the Migrant Contribution link you pointed to only considers Tax as I said and makes no allowance for the actual Cash that is NOT spent in the UK economy, but is sent back to the migrants homeland to be spent there.
Quote "The net fiscal impact of immigration is typically estimated as the difference between the taxes and other contributions migrants make to public finances and the costs of the public benefits and services they receive."
That spending money is probaly at least 2 times the amount of Tax paid, so therefore represents a loss to the UK that is not included in the added value calculations.
The poorer the migrants homeland the more likely they are to be sending money home to support their families.
This is particularly true of Eastern Europens, Asians and Africans.
The Minimum Wage paid here is a massive draw for those poorer nations, as are the various Benifit Systems. |
I'm not sure if that's a big an issue as you make out. Some money will be spent locally, some sent away, but what are the figures? I saw a stat today somewhere that said 7% of couples now include a UK national and a non-UK born person. So a lot of immigrants are clearly fully integrated and contributing to the economy. An in any case, money leaves the country in a whole host of ways. Many of our goods and services are bought from foreign-owned companies for example - they'll be taking profits away (an not contributing tax in some cases). So it seems a bit of a simplistic argument to me. You may be right, but it's surely a lot more nuanced. | | | |
| Immigration on 19:46 - May 27 with 1717 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration on 17:20 - May 27 by LeonisGod |
I'm not sure if that's a big an issue as you make out. Some money will be spent locally, some sent away, but what are the figures? I saw a stat today somewhere that said 7% of couples now include a UK national and a non-UK born person. So a lot of immigrants are clearly fully integrated and contributing to the economy. An in any case, money leaves the country in a whole host of ways. Many of our goods and services are bought from foreign-owned companies for example - they'll be taking profits away (an not contributing tax in some cases). So it seems a bit of a simplistic argument to me. You may be right, but it's surely a lot more nuanced. |
One area of uncertainty in my mind concerns the income migrants need before they pay more in taxes than they take in services and benefits. The IFS has calculated that in the general population a household needs to receive £35K to £38K per annum before it makes a net fiscal contribution.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/10638283/How-much-we-give
The pattern of EU migration has changed since the UCL study showing a positive contribution was done with more migrants now in low-paid jobs. However, it has been argued that on average immigrants are younger, are less likely to have wives or children and make less use of the NHS, and so make proportionately less use of services. This leaves me unsure of the current picture. | | | |
| Immigration on 19:51 - May 27 with 1715 views | exiledclaseboy |
All guesswork innit. For every link or stat there's another link or stat "proving" the opposite. |  |
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| Immigration on 19:56 - May 27 with 1711 views | MrSwerve |
| Immigration on 19:51 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
All guesswork innit. For every link or stat there's another link or stat "proving" the opposite. |
Exactly - flip of a coin. |  |
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| Immigration on 12:14 - May 28 with 1638 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Immigration on 19:51 - May 27 by exiledclaseboy |
All guesswork innit. For every link or stat there's another link or stat "proving" the opposite. |
Which is why the decision can only be made on the larger issues of principle not the economic figures which no one knows
The amount of sheer rubbish being spouted is astonishing. | | | |
| Immigration on 12:51 - May 28 with 1630 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Immigration on 12:14 - May 28 by londonlisa2001 |
Which is why the decision can only be made on the larger issues of principle not the economic figures which no one knows
The amount of sheer rubbish being spouted is astonishing. |
Amen, sister. Or brother. Of if you prefer, non-gender specific sibling. Don't want donkey boy engaging Clarkson Pee Cee GONE MAD!! mode again. It's very tiresome. | |
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| Immigration on 13:03 - May 28 with 1619 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Immigration on 12:51 - May 28 by exiledclaseboy |
Amen, sister. Or brother. Of if you prefer, non-gender specific sibling. Don't want donkey boy engaging Clarkson Pee Cee GONE MAD!! mode again. It's very tiresome. |
Less than 4 weeks to go of this case study in why we should never have a referendum about anything ever again at least! I blame the women, or immigrants, or Mexicans or something. | | | |
| Immigration on 13:07 - May 28 with 1617 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Immigration on 13:03 - May 28 by londonlisa2001 |
Less than 4 weeks to go of this case study in why we should never have a referendum about anything ever again at least! I blame the women, or immigrants, or Mexicans or something. |
I've never been an advocate of referenda. They should be alien in a properly functioning parliamentary democracy. | |
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| Immigration on 13:13 - May 28 with 1611 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Immigration on 13:07 - May 28 by exiledclaseboy |
I've never been an advocate of referenda. They should be alien in a properly functioning parliamentary democracy. |
Quite - particularly when said referenda stop any functioning of parliamentary democracy, proper or otherwise for the duration! | | | |
| Immigration on 13:21 - May 28 with 1544 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Immigration on 13:13 - May 28 by londonlisa2001 |
Quite - particularly when said referenda stop any functioning of parliamentary democracy, proper or otherwise for the duration! |
They're having an extra recess in June so they can all campaign. | |
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| Immigration on 13:51 - May 28 with 1526 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Immigration on 13:21 - May 28 by exiledclaseboy |
They're having an extra recess in June so they can all campaign. |
Not sure how we'll notice the difference. | | | |
| Immigration on 19:49 - May 28 with 1472 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Immigration on 13:13 - May 28 by londonlisa2001 |
Quite - particularly when said referenda stop any functioning of parliamentary democracy, proper or otherwise for the duration! |
How strange that you think what we have under the EU umbrella is Democracy and a Referendum (which is the ultimate Democracy, ie listening to the people) is getting in the way of our non democracy. [Post edited 28 May 2016 19:50]
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| Immigration on 20:28 - May 28 with 1460 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Immigration on 19:49 - May 28 by A_Fans_Dad |
How strange that you think what we have under the EU umbrella is Democracy and a Referendum (which is the ultimate Democracy, ie listening to the people) is getting in the way of our non democracy. [Post edited 28 May 2016 19:50]
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I didn't remotely say that but if you don't recognise that parliament has all but stopped functioning because of this then it's not worth bothering pointing it out.
It's all very well listening to the people if they are told the facts. We haven't been. So it's a waste of everyone's time to listen to endless crap from both sides about the implications. For all the reasoned debate they may as well have called the referendum a day after it was announced. The result wouldn't have been significantly different to what it will be in another 3 and a bit long weeks of drivel. | | | |
| Immigration on 21:11 - May 28 with 1444 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Immigration on 20:28 - May 28 by londonlisa2001 |
I didn't remotely say that but if you don't recognise that parliament has all but stopped functioning because of this then it's not worth bothering pointing it out.
It's all very well listening to the people if they are told the facts. We haven't been. So it's a waste of everyone's time to listen to endless crap from both sides about the implications. For all the reasoned debate they may as well have called the referendum a day after it was announced. The result wouldn't have been significantly different to what it will be in another 3 and a bit long weeks of drivel. |
This was the main concern of everyone with an interest in this topic before all the campaigning started though right. We hoped, wanted and required a balanced debate with facts, genuinely balanced analysis and grown up discussion, but all we have had to date is lies, conjecture, scaremongering and mudslinging. Its pretty pathetic and all concerned in this should be embarrassed and hang their heads in shame. They are politicians and groups related to politicswho have done nothing but shame the nation and thrown the hugely important topic into disarray.
Im very much in the Leave camp, but the campaigning hasnt been great, the Stay has been dreadful. They should coming up with reasons and examples that i can understand to try and change my mind, but they havent. All they have done is throw fudged analysis, half truths, lies and basically called me a racist for disagreeing with them. All concerned are a joke.
Tbh, im disgusted with it all. People need to be selfish and vote for what is best for them and fhuck everyone else, no matter what reason it is, or how shallow it is.
There really needs to be a shake up across the political spectrum after the outcome of all this has been completed. Honestly, id trust a bunch of 5 yr olds to do a better job. |  |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Immigration on 21:26 - May 28 with 1431 views | Flashberryjack |
| Immigration on 21:11 - May 28 by PozuelosSideys |
This was the main concern of everyone with an interest in this topic before all the campaigning started though right. We hoped, wanted and required a balanced debate with facts, genuinely balanced analysis and grown up discussion, but all we have had to date is lies, conjecture, scaremongering and mudslinging. Its pretty pathetic and all concerned in this should be embarrassed and hang their heads in shame. They are politicians and groups related to politicswho have done nothing but shame the nation and thrown the hugely important topic into disarray.
Im very much in the Leave camp, but the campaigning hasnt been great, the Stay has been dreadful. They should coming up with reasons and examples that i can understand to try and change my mind, but they havent. All they have done is throw fudged analysis, half truths, lies and basically called me a racist for disagreeing with them. All concerned are a joke.
Tbh, im disgusted with it all. People need to be selfish and vote for what is best for them and fhuck everyone else, no matter what reason it is, or how shallow it is.
There really needs to be a shake up across the political spectrum after the outcome of all this has been completed. Honestly, id trust a bunch of 5 yr olds to do a better job. |
We are talking politicians here.........lies, half truths, fudging issues is par for the course for them, plus doing what's best for their own personal gain rather than the people that elected them.
Surprised ? I'm certainly not, BTW I want out of the giant sh*t melting pot that the EU has become, before it completely self destructs, which IMO it will do within the next couple of years. | |
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| Immigration on 21:38 - May 28 with 1420 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Immigration on 21:26 - May 28 by Flashberryjack |
We are talking politicians here.........lies, half truths, fudging issues is par for the course for them, plus doing what's best for their own personal gain rather than the people that elected them.
Surprised ? I'm certainly not, BTW I want out of the giant sh*t melting pot that the EU has become, before it completely self destructs, which IMO it will do within the next couple of years. |
Tbh, id hoped some of them would have had a little bit of nouse and realised that not everyone is some dullard who as little to no interest and will challenge what has been put in front of them now and then. If these politicians exist, they certainly have not been at the forefront of the campaigning.
Its very much like the Question Time debating and all these other discussion shows on TV where its a race to the bottom of sound bites and twisted agedas where everyone claps and doesnt see beyond what is right between the eyes.
All the political parties here are equally to blame, but the Tories and Cameron in particularly are worried about nothing except their legacy. They do not want history to judge them negatively and an exit is too big a risk in their eyes of that actually happening. Much like in business and the rest of society, nobody wants to take responsibility and nobody wants to stick their head out and risk it being shot off if they get it wrong.Much easier to hide behind the bollox and make sure your future snout-troughing remains intact.
This is why the likes of Farage and the far-right on the Continent is starting to pick up a bit of support - people are hacked off at the pale and having those in charge be disingenious to their faces. [Post edited 28 May 2016 21:41]
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| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Immigration on 00:34 - May 29 with 1380 views | exiledclaseboy |
The only thing that could save the referendum campaign from total f*ckwittery is banning every and all active politicians from taking part.
I want to vote remain. I really do. I'm instinctively pro Europe. But I'm also a democrat. The remain camp makes me want to vote leave. The leave camp makes me want to have nothing to do with the leave camp.
Help. | |
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| Immigration on 00:41 - May 29 with 1375 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Immigration on 00:34 - May 29 by exiledclaseboy |
The only thing that could save the referendum campaign from total f*ckwittery is banning every and all active politicians from taking part.
I want to vote remain. I really do. I'm instinctively pro Europe. But I'm also a democrat. The remain camp makes me want to vote leave. The leave camp makes me want to have nothing to do with the leave camp.
Help. |
Boris will be PM...
Happy to help :-) | | | |
| Immigration on 05:53 - May 29 with 1346 views | AnotherJohn |
| Immigration on 00:41 - May 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Boris will be PM...
Happy to help :-) |
Either way the divisions will run deep and the recriminations will be deeply damaging. Labour too is going to lose voters who cannot stomach seeing Corbyn lining up with Peter Sutherland, and Pixie Balls-Cooper wittering on about how ashamed she feels. | | | |
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