| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 13:31 - Oct 4 with 2414 views | KeithHaynes |
On this day 84 years ago.
5 years ago we bought a property on the border of Cadiz City, the reason ?
My grandfather fought at the last battle of Cordoba for the Govt, he was an active communist. He was held prisoner in the area until he managed to escape back to Ireland.
A remarkable story from that battle when the partisans were totally outnumbered, out of ammunition and certainly defeated. My grandfather and his comrades with no weaponry resorted to throwing stones at German sponsored aircraft. I recall he told me ' Didn't hit one son, not bloody one'
We came to see the place he escaped from, loved the unspoilt coast line and real Spanish way of life. Like my Granddad we sort of became history too, family history is best, but in a very small way.
Rest easy you soldiers of principle.
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 17:31 - Oct 4 with 972 views | DJack |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 17:14 - Oct 4 by BarrySwan |
Just substitute Fascist and Communist if you wish. |
Historically speaking there is little between them. |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 17:59 - Oct 4 with 949 views | BarrySwan |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 16:31 - Oct 4 by KeithHaynes |
Having lived in Spain for five years now and seen the atrocities that Franco continued to impose on families of Partisan fighters. And had conversations with direct descendants of men, women and children who were taking from their homes right up until 1967 and executed on the roadside by the Guardia Civil for being family related I’m pretty proud of what he did. Fascism is a disgusting politic, and my only agreement is that modern day communism is no better. Anyone who thinks interfering in another countries war is the wrong thing to do then maybe Mussolini and Hitler would have been advised to do the same in Spain. I’m pretty happy he threw rocks at German aircraft. I’m not lauding anything, just sharing some family history. However, today’s politics are nowhere near that of those times, they are not even related, much the same as any topic you choose to mention from the thirties and apply it to today’s modern world.
Anyone who thinks the so called communists of the thirties were wrong, be that at cable street or in the spanish civil war should reference seven million dead Jews a few years later. However, thanks for your opinion.
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Thank you for such a comprehensive reply, I'm not sure that I have picked up on any contributor to this thread who has recommended the virtues of fascism over communism.
A number including myself have condemned both from the outset.
I think in the understandable emotion of mentioning your relative you may have inadvertently forgotten to answer my earlier question in regards to how many are estimated to have died at the hands of communist regimes over many many years, which I feel holds equal reference to the horrific acts carried out by the Nazis which I'm sure that we all condemn in an instant and you are quite correct to highlight these atrocities of which I'm sure we are all aware of and view with complete and utter horror.
I'm struggling to see how opposing the ideogly of communism in the thirties requires an automatic need to reference the victims of fascism.
Perhaps it could be considered that a rejection of the communist ideal in the thirties was quite far sighted in those days for those who did. As of course would equally be the case in the rejection of the Nazi / Fascist ideal, as opposed to supporting either political view.
You have of course pointed out your view that modern day communism is no better than the fascism of Franco, although I would suspect that there would be many victims of old time communism who might wish to put you straight on the values of communism during the earlier era of their demise if they were able to.
Which is exactly the point I wished to highlight in my response to your initial posting.
Both ideologies are equally as bad, although I do note that you have managed to insert a time sensitive caveat in your reply in regards to the relative merits of communism during different eras.
A strange philosophy in my view but you are of course entitled to your views as expressed. [Post edited 4 Oct 2020 18:15]
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 18:24 - Oct 4 with 937 views | Fireboy2 |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 17:59 - Oct 4 by BarrySwan |
Thank you for such a comprehensive reply, I'm not sure that I have picked up on any contributor to this thread who has recommended the virtues of fascism over communism.
A number including myself have condemned both from the outset.
I think in the understandable emotion of mentioning your relative you may have inadvertently forgotten to answer my earlier question in regards to how many are estimated to have died at the hands of communist regimes over many many years, which I feel holds equal reference to the horrific acts carried out by the Nazis which I'm sure that we all condemn in an instant and you are quite correct to highlight these atrocities of which I'm sure we are all aware of and view with complete and utter horror.
I'm struggling to see how opposing the ideogly of communism in the thirties requires an automatic need to reference the victims of fascism.
Perhaps it could be considered that a rejection of the communist ideal in the thirties was quite far sighted in those days for those who did. As of course would equally be the case in the rejection of the Nazi / Fascist ideal, as opposed to supporting either political view.
You have of course pointed out your view that modern day communism is no better than the fascism of Franco, although I would suspect that there would be many victims of old time communism who might wish to put you straight on the values of communism during the earlier era of their demise if they were able to.
Which is exactly the point I wished to highlight in my response to your initial posting.
Both ideologies are equally as bad, although I do note that you have managed to insert a time sensitive caveat in your reply in regards to the relative merits of communism during different eras.
A strange philosophy in my view but you are of course entitled to your views as expressed. [Post edited 4 Oct 2020 18:15]
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I couldnt care less about communism or fascism, I was enjoying a great thread about what decent people did in dire times to help others but you ruined it because communism was mentioned.
Thanks. |  | | |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 18:50 - Oct 4 with 929 views | Humpty |
One thing I don't think has been mentioned but is quite important.
One side was a democracy. The other was attempting to overthrow a democracy. |  | | |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 19:18 - Oct 4 with 921 views | BarrySwan |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 18:24 - Oct 4 by Fireboy2 |
I couldnt care less about communism or fascism, I was enjoying a great thread about what decent people did in dire times to help others but you ruined it because communism was mentioned.
Thanks. |
But isn't that the whole point which you appear to have glossed over?
You are correct, many decent fine people tried to stop Franco and Co taking over, many gave their lives in the attempt who weren't followers of such an evil ideology.
I didn't introduce the subject of communism, the original poster did.
Tomorrow we can debate a fluffy rabbit story. [Post edited 4 Oct 2020 19:35]
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 20:01 - Oct 4 with 898 views | Fireboy2 |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 19:18 - Oct 4 by BarrySwan |
But isn't that the whole point which you appear to have glossed over?
You are correct, many decent fine people tried to stop Franco and Co taking over, many gave their lives in the attempt who weren't followers of such an evil ideology.
I didn't introduce the subject of communism, the original poster did.
Tomorrow we can debate a fluffy rabbit story. [Post edited 4 Oct 2020 19:35]
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And you jumped all over it bugsy.
I rarely get involved in political arguments and thought keiths opening post was really nice, i didnt even think bloody communists I just thought of the sacrifice of keiths grampy and his friends yet you jump all over communism.
As I've said I couldnt give a monkey's about left or right, it no wonder I rarely post on the non football part of this forum anymore, it's people like you who are turning it into 1922 committee.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2020 20:07]
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 20:34 - Oct 4 with 877 views | BarrySwan |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 20:01 - Oct 4 by Fireboy2 |
And you jumped all over it bugsy.
I rarely get involved in political arguments and thought keiths opening post was really nice, i didnt even think bloody communists I just thought of the sacrifice of keiths grampy and his friends yet you jump all over communism.
As I've said I couldnt give a monkey's about left or right, it no wonder I rarely post on the non football part of this forum anymore, it's people like you who are turning it into 1922 committee.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2020 20:07]
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I also of course jumped all over fascism in regards to your 1922 committee comment which some might interpret as a political point, the likes of which I understand you rarely get involved with. | | | |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 20:38 - Oct 4 with 869 views | Lohengrin |
Let me just park this here: MOSLEY WAS RIGHT!
In being so he committed the cardinal political sin of being right too early.
“What Mosley so valiantly stood for could have saved this country from the Hungry Thirties...”
Michael Foot.
“ Mosley was spurned by Whitehall, Fleet Street and every party leader at Westminster simply and solely because he was right.”
Richard Crossman
Right about what? That there is nothing inevitable about decline, that the organised state not only has the duty but the moral imperative to intervene. That nobody should be constrained by the financial circumstances of their birth. That the abolition of poverty was entirely possible in an age when science held out the promise of plenty.
In 1931 Mosley rose to the challenge and he rose alone. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 20:46 - Oct 4 with 859 views | Lohengrin |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 13:52 - Oct 4 by trampie |
The Welsh identified with the Communists, Basques and Catalans, I think they set up a school for Basque children in Swansea, Wales even played an international against the Basque country in Tosh's time, it was Giggs only good game for Wales that I can remember and he scored the only goal, you would not have the imperialist powers like England, German, France etc playing the Basques. |
” The Welsh identified with the Communists...”
Complete nonsense, offensive nonsense at that.  | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 21:24 - Oct 4 with 812 views | Fireboy2 |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 20:34 - Oct 4 by BarrySwan |
I also of course jumped all over fascism in regards to your 1922 committee comment which some might interpret as a political point, the likes of which I understand you rarely get involved with. |
You didn't need to jump over either, all you needed to do was to thank keith for the story about his grampies sacrifice, simple really. | | | |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 22:27 - Oct 4 with 775 views | NotLoyal |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 21:24 - Oct 4 by Fireboy2 |
You didn't need to jump over either, all you needed to do was to thank keith for the story about his grampies sacrifice, simple really. |
I know Keith will be very humbled by your words. Being indifferent to left or right, commies, fascists, whatever, is exactly what he is, I would imagine he will be shtum in future.
The civil war was between communists and fascists Barry Swan, hence the mention in his op. I'm sure you get that much. Why didn't you start your ruination of this thread condemning the fascists. But, please don't bother it was a wonderful opportunity for others to speak about the grandparents, how they lived and what they did, but you railroaded it. |  |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 22:47 - Oct 4 with 769 views | Boundy |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 22:27 - Oct 4 by NotLoyal |
I know Keith will be very humbled by your words. Being indifferent to left or right, commies, fascists, whatever, is exactly what he is, I would imagine he will be shtum in future.
The civil war was between communists and fascists Barry Swan, hence the mention in his op. I'm sure you get that much. Why didn't you start your ruination of this thread condemning the fascists. But, please don't bother it was a wonderful opportunity for others to speak about the grandparents, how they lived and what they did, but you railroaded it. |
We know the make up of Franco's philosophy but for the thousands who opposed him maybe just maybe they were decent individuals trying to do the decent thing | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 23:51 - Oct 4 with 744 views | Lohengrin |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 22:47 - Oct 4 by Boundy |
We know the make up of Franco's philosophy but for the thousands who opposed him maybe just maybe they were decent individuals trying to do the decent thing |
” We know the make up of Franco's philosophy.”
Do we? What makes you say that? He may have called his politics National Catholicism but what’s in a name? In this case next to nothing, it had none of the coherent structure of his Iberian neighbour Salazar’s Integralism.
Don’t say Fascism as the Francoist regime despite appropriating and making a fetish of Jose Antonio, and to a far lesser extent Ramiro Ledesma following their assassinations, had not a trace of the Distributist and Syndicalist radicalism that animated them.
So what are we left with? | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 00:57 - Oct 5 with 728 views | BarrySwan |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 22:27 - Oct 4 by NotLoyal |
I know Keith will be very humbled by your words. Being indifferent to left or right, commies, fascists, whatever, is exactly what he is, I would imagine he will be shtum in future.
The civil war was between communists and fascists Barry Swan, hence the mention in his op. I'm sure you get that much. Why didn't you start your ruination of this thread condemning the fascists. But, please don't bother it was a wonderful opportunity for others to speak about the grandparents, how they lived and what they did, but you railroaded it. |
I did
On the very first line
'I see, whilst I personally join in the contempt and revulsion of Franco and his murderous and oppressive followers' | | | |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 10:06 - Oct 5 with 676 views | onehunglow |
Fireboy.
With respect,I think you are overreacted to barryswan. He is not derailing anything here at all.
You are of a left wing pursuasion and see the world through that prism and that 's fair enough. Other's see it differently a they did during the Spanish Civil War.
Franco didnt and couldnt do it alone and had support himself and I remember going to Spain in the 70s when he was still alive and SOME saw him as the saviour of pain especially the Catholic Church and way of life. It was a filthy war and the new republican left wing government saw support from Trades Union activists and communists from all over Europe and beyond.
Franco was a butcher and as bad a fecker as there has ever been but dont think he didnt have supporters.
Keith tells a fascinating story there. | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 15:06 - Oct 5 with 639 views | Catullus |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 15:04 - Oct 4 by Kerouac |
The biggest failure of the British education system is the refusal to teach generations of people exactly what Communism was and what it was responsible for.
Unlike Trampie I don't believe in "goodies and baddies", I don't judge people of the 1930s for supporting a movement which promised them the earth and claimed to be just.
I do judge people of the 21st century who haven't bothered to learn the lessons of the 20th century though.
Communism was a very, very, bad idea. |
Hmmm, now I see the basic idea of Communism as ok. Everybody gets what they need, everybody plays their part. When we all have what we need first then we start to get what we want. I know thta's very simplified but what is rally wrong with that?
The problems start because the people who rise to the top become the "more equal" and start to take more and more, to keep that going they start to oppress,to keep the masses in their place by force if necessary.
I don't think th basic idea is wrong it's just that us humans are incapable of such vicarious, altruistic behaviour en masse. There will always be the power hungry, the greedy, the selfish.
My maternal grandpa had leanings towards the Spanish "freedom fighters" but he didn't go to join them, he was a miner, he did his wartime service down the pits and it was mining that killed him, pneumoconioses got him when I was 4 and years later we got compensation for that, £1000, that's what his life was worth.
I wonder if the world regretted letting Hitler and Franco crush the opposition? After all, it was during the civil war that Hitlers airforce gained experience and expertise they used so effectively in WW2. The Condor Legion and the Stuka. | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 15:29 - Oct 5 with 638 views | onehunglow |
The problem with communism,socialism even,is that it goes against human nature in so much as to do the best you can for yourself and family.Nothing wrong with that
When in authority,most get intoxicated and vomit all over the populace they purport to represent. There is so such thing as equality as we are all different/all unique,all flawed.
Communism is something that enslaved millions after the war for decade with regimes every bit a bad a Franco-it could be argue,albeit,in more subtle form. | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 15:45 - Oct 5 with 629 views | Catullus |
| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 15:29 - Oct 5 by onehunglow |
The problem with communism,socialism even,is that it goes against human nature in so much as to do the best you can for yourself and family.Nothing wrong with that
When in authority,most get intoxicated and vomit all over the populace they purport to represent. There is so such thing as equality as we are all different/all unique,all flawed.
Communism is something that enslaved millions after the war for decade with regimes every bit a bad a Franco-it could be argue,albeit,in more subtle form. |
Communism is an idea, it was people that did the bad things.
Keith's Grampy saw bad things, saw wrong being done and felt compelled to fight against the wrong. I would call him many things, good, strong and brave amongst them and how many of us would be so brave? I couldn't call him wrong. | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 16:37 - Oct 5 with 618 views | onehunglow |
Nor would I.
My initial point was that Franco had supporters in many disparate part of Spain ,which made it a true and genuinely nasty civil war | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 10:43 - Oct 6 with 533 views | onehunglow |
Ive actually seen that before Cat.
For sure the Catholic Church was well involved in the state as it is/was in Ireland.
There were/are many who believe Franco brought order when there was chaos and a fear of full on communism which sadly led to this bloodbath.
A dirty page in Spain's history and it still lingers. | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 11:24 - Oct 6 with 523 views | trampie |
Seeing talk of the Catholic church influence on the Irish state, what about the CoE being a state religion in England. |  |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 11:42 - Oct 6 with 511 views | onehunglow |
Eh.England again.
A discussion on Spain ends up with more England hatred.
GET FREE OF THOSE CHAINS TRAMPS | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 11:46 - Oct 6 with 505 views | trampie |
Perch I responded to your post referencing the Catholic church in Ireland, you live in England and they have a state religion there. | |
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| Battle of Cable Street on this day 1936 on 11:47 - Oct 6 with 504 views | onehunglow |
Tramp.
Think I'm done here.
You've worn me down
Heddwch | |
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