| Good Luck UK 12:13 - Dec 12 with 58307 views | PlanetHonneywood |
For the Eze, not the Pugh!
#votewarburton
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| Good Luck UK on 23:50 - Dec 14 with 1786 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
I’ve bored you to death loads of times over this North, so I won’t go over it’s again but on the Anti Semitism thing, they have now come for the Jewish son of Holocaust survivors Bernie Sanders now.
Whoever the next leader is, they will be attacked. People forget that Miliband who is as close to Alan Johnson in terms of politics was also attacked. He was as mild as they come.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/bernie-sanders-campaign-has-an-anti-s [Post edited 14 Dec 2019 23:55]
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| Good Luck UK on 23:57 - Dec 14 with 1762 views | WEAREAWFUL |
Brian i will reverse your question, what are your views on england just walking away and leaving ireland to get on with it. Would it end in violence | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:00 - Dec 15 with 1756 views | WEAREAWFUL |
Yes but he stabbed his brother in the back | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:07 - Dec 15 with 1738 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
By winning a fair leadership election? David Miliband would lose the same election against almost anyone mildly left of centre tomorrow. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 0:09]
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| Good Luck UK on 00:11 - Dec 15 with 1724 views | nix |
But would appeal much more broadly to the electorate, which is where the problem is in the LP currently. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:11 - Dec 15 with 1722 views | WEAREAWFUL |
Sorry baz but surely you mean a len mccluskey rigged election?!!! | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:32 - Dec 15 with 1687 views | LythamR |
This election result is a watershed moment, North Belfast result changing the balance of power away from the unionists probably forever. The Tory majority means no need for the government to be held to ransom by the DUP or the ultra unionists in the Tory ranks
I think Johnson and co will sell the unionists further down the river during the trade negotiations without any qualms and wil give Northern Ireland a referendum within the 5 year term secretly hoping that it votes for a United Ireland.
Its almost inevitable that a united ireland will come to pass eventually so this seems as good a time as any, hopefully it can be done quickly with as little violence as possible.
Some solution has to be offered to Unionists that might want to relocate to England, that will be tricky to sort out but not impossible and I would like to think the vast majority would want to stay. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:34 - Dec 15 with 1692 views | karl |
Who do you preside over?
Thats the attitude from MSM that has created SNP support.
As things have progressed I was 75% for staying in UK (don't believe there's many in Scotland that don't have some notion of independence) when we had the vote but tbh if there was one tomorrow I'm pretty sure I'd be voting for going it alone, albeit needing some concrete evidence of currency and EU membership.
The whole campaign last time was about guaranteeing our EU membership and ridiculing the SNP for the folly in risking this. Fishing (my industry) can whistle in the wind as we'll be sold down the river at the first negotiations.
The Irish situation is an area I can't comment on through lack of knowledge other than I already know companies that move goods across the border under false pretences and have caused (non EU) markets to be closed to ROI businesses. Is anyone honestly expecting that to be self governed, absolutely no chance.
I would like to say that I count Bazza as a good friend although we don't share political ground for the most part, I'm a lifelong Lib Dem supporter and if I vote independence I won't be voting for the SNP in an independent Scotland.
That said, he's the most agreeable person you could meet and will do anything for you, I don't agree with some of what he says but I hope for the next little while he becomes Bazzaintheloft again and we can all concentrate on his love of the Rs and stick the politics to one side when we speak about each other.
My one big gripe in life is the demise of Charles Kennedy, he was always right imo and if the LDs had stuck by him in his time of need with his illness instead of going with that chancer Clegg then the SNP wouldn't gave secured so heavily the centre left in Scotland and the Tories wouldn't have had their lapdogs to start this whole s**tstorm.
Our MP Carmichael was complicit in this and always troubles me when I vote.
Good luck in whatever you do next Baz! | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:36 - Dec 15 with 1682 views | DannytheR |
Corbyn was a shockingly bad leader, and his refusal/inability to play the smart game with the media (or anyone else) has been ruinous.
But the idea Jess Phillips or David Miliband or any of the rest of the centrist mob is going to change anything for Labour is no more connected to reality than the dreams of Corbyn. It's not 1997 anymore. Even with Murdoch still on side, Blair's last result was 3 per cent higher than Labour got this time - both Brown and Miliband got less.
I've been out on the doorsteps for the last five weeks, and hated as Corbyn was, people outside London and the major cities didn't only vote Tory because of that —Â they like what Johnson and the Tories represent now, which is English nationalism. Look at posters on this thread talking about how Labour should represent "the white working class." That's the game now. The right have united brilliantly, with everyone from Matt Hancock to Tommy Robinson on the same song sheet of national "unity" behind Johnson and Brexit. Factor in the coming boundary changes, ID at polling stations, page 48 of the Tory manifesto, the inevitable clampdown once the economy goes sideways, all the rest of it, and we're done.
Yeah, Labour could "adapt" by trying to keep pace on immigration etc, and God knows they couldn't find a worse media performer than Corbyn to do it, but you need your own story and a big idea to win elections - Thatcher had one, Blair had one and now Johnson has one. What's going to be the big Labour idea? Being a bit less cruel to the disabled than the Tories with Dan Jarvis standing up extra straight at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday? Might pick a dozen seats back up in five years time, that's about it.
The right have won. It's game over. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:42 - Dec 15 with 1659 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
I would agree with part of that, which is the LP membership and the electorate are at odds. However I think a Party should convince the electorate, not the other way round.
However this is where we disagree: the one thing this election has proven is that there is no 'broad electorate'. While I don't think Labour are anything other than a mild Social Democrat party they are percieved as 'Hard Left'. The Tories are perceived, probably rightly, as a English Nationalist party which they had to become to swallow the dangerous UKIP / BP vote.
Between them, the 'Hard Left' and 'Hard Right' parties took 77% of the overall vote, and the middle ground Lib Dems took 11%.
If Centrism (and Remainism) was so popular, the LDs would have been a major player in this election. But they barely put 4% on.
Something to note though, if we had a PR parliament like most European countries. Jeremy would be the prime minister in charge of a coalition that had 60% of the seats.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2019 0:56]
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| Good Luck UK on 00:53 - Dec 15 with 1634 views | loftboy |
The electorate rejected PR in a referendum in 2011, doubt there will be another one any time soon. | |
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| Good Luck UK on 00:58 - Dec 15 with 1630 views | WEAREAWFUL |
It would always be a coalition under that system of voting ,not that its such a bad thing but look what happened to clegg and the libdems after the last one?6 | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 00:59 - Dec 15 with 1632 views | karl |
PR works well in the Scottish Parliament, Orkney has always been a Lib Dem stronghold but, rightly, the Tories and SNP have representation at the Parliament through what are called 'List' MSPs who cover greater areas. In our case the whole of the Highlands and Islands.
I would definitely recommend as a fairer way of representing the electorate.
Edit
Before SNP got their majority we always had a hung parliament and getting the budget passed always took a while but otherwise it didn't seem to create major issues.
I do appreciate the devolved budget is less onerous than the current UK one but politicians are politicians wherever and always grandstand whether its local council or High office and compromise is probably best outcome anyway. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:03]
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| Good Luck UK on 01:04 - Dec 15 with 1622 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Thanks mate. And good advice.
Heading up the M1 as we speak with a fishing rod and a pile of CVs! [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:07]
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| Good Luck UK on 01:09 - Dec 15 with 1610 views | AnonymousR |
How will the trusted trader scheme work?
Who will pay for the implementation and maintenance?
How long will a trader be registered for?
How will the traders be allocated licence?
What priority order will it take?
Which industries will be affected?
How will new organisations be added?
What help will mainland organisations get?
How will electronic tracking work?
How will component elements be tracked?
When an item is manufactured in several countries, who is responsible for the completion of the system?
Which technology standard will be used?
Who will govern the system and maintain it?
Who will fund the electronic system? | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 01:09 - Dec 15 with 1610 views | karl |
Good man, if it extends to the A9 I'll buy your catch and give you a bed for the nightðŸ˜
All the best, speak soon👠| | | |
| Good Luck UK on 01:19 - Dec 15 with 1590 views | Boston |
Based on existing political entities. But, if you had PR, a myriad of small parties would appear, many of which would be considered extreme. | |
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| Good Luck UK on 01:40 - Dec 15 with 1569 views | nix |
Unfortunately Bazz your view that the party should change the electorate's perspective is the one shared by Corbyn and McDonnell and previously by Michael Foot. But that is a much more risky strategy than that employed by the Tory party, who shamelessly appealed to a large swathe of the electorate's fears and desires: tighter immigration controls, a booming economy, Brexit and spending on health and the police. All of that will work on their target market, the over 50s.
I disagree that among the wider public's view, Corbyn had a centrist manifesto. Maybe if it's viewed by socialist activists he might be considered moderate, but not in mainstream politics. The Liberal Democrats are not viewed as a party who will ever be in government in their own right, so I don't think their being centrist but not popular is relevant. I truly believe that a more moderate LP would have done much better in the polls. Many people believe in social justice, can't stand Boris Johnson, or JRM but still would never have voted for Corbyn because they don't want everything re-nationalised, they don't want to be taxed to oblivion and they don't believe he could run the economy. There's a reason why Clinton's unofficial campaign slogan was, 'it's the economy, stupid' and guess what, he won. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 01:50 - Dec 15 with 1564 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Well, the majority of the country would probably vote to bring back capital punishment. An extreme example I know, but I hope you wouldn't expect the Party to take that on as a vote winner.
As mentioned before, Germany under a Merkel conservative government has a vastly nationalised state. It's really not controversial. Here is a YouGov poll of popularity for Labour Policies including nationalisation.
YouGov is founded and owned by Stephen Shakespeare (alongside Nadhim Zahari), a former Tory candidate by the way so far from pro Labour:
Milliband was a moderate, and received less votes than Corbyn did. He was only the leader 5 years ago. That was the last mandate a 'moderate' LP leader received.
I'm guilty of living in a Corbyn bubble thats for sure, but I don't think Centrism is either the right answer, or an answer the country wants.
All those Northern / Midland / Welsh seats gave their Labour votes to the Brexit Party. I think the Labour loss is as simple as them going back on their promise to leave in 2017 as well as the unpopularity of Corbyn which I think was based on a falsehood of him being a terrorist sympathiser etc. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:56]
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| Good Luck UK on 01:55 - Dec 15 with 1560 views | Jigsore |
it's not an excuse to say general media has been a disgrace this election. I don't even think it's the main factor. you've also managed not to mention Brexit at all which I find astounding.
The only Governments we have had for a long time now are ones given the blessing of Rupert Murdoch. You cannot ignore that. There is no f*cking point in a 'proper opposition' if it's just changing the colour of the walls after whoever the previous incumbent is burns out. an Opposition who just accept everything the Conservatives and aren't willing to reform aren't a proper opposition. And you can dance to Murdoch's tune if you want but as long as the Conservatives aren't too badly damaged goods they will find a way to monster you. JFK would be as unpopular as Jimmy Saville in 4 years too.
Labour do need to find someone more appealing to the electorate in general that much is obvious. If it wasn't so important i'd actually enjoy a Jess Phillips leadership just to see genuine shock on her daft mug when she realises The Times only like her because they can rely on her to publicly take a crap on the Corbyn cabinet. It needs be someone with broad appeal... maybe Angela Raynor. The moderates can cry all they like about Corbyn but frankly they challenged him in 2016 and the best they could come up with was Owen Smith, a nobody that will not even be a footnote in british history.
the positive I would take from this election if I was Labour is a) when presented in a vacuum to people a lot of their policies like higher rate of tax for the super rich and some degree of nationalisation were actually reasonably popular (yougov) and b) for the first time in many years they actually have a large amount of mostly younger activists who are willing to volunteer time and give money to the party, a part of politics Blair strangled the life out of. They need to use that to their advantage. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 1:58]
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| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Good Luck UK on 01:59 - Dec 15 with 1554 views | Jigsore |
the backstabbing Jew stereotype is it | |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Good Luck UK on 02:22 - Dec 15 with 1533 views | plasmahoop |
Although I've traditionally voted tory, it was a reluctant vote this time. Although it's along way back for Labour, it's certainly not game over if they can get their act together. Personally I'm chuffed at how the election has gone, but there is so much that can go wrong for them, brexit wise, economy wise, and if they can't deal with homelessness, social care etc it can easily fall apart.
I hope they can do well, and the Labour Party consigned to the wilderness for a while. But probably there are going to be many problems ahead for the tories. If Labour can move a bit to the centre with a relatively charismatic leader they could gain power again. But they've surely got to sack off momentum as a starting point | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 02:23 - Dec 15 with 1529 views | nix |
Bit of a straw man there Bazz about capital punishment.
It wouldn't be controversial to continue with nationalised industries if we had them, it's slightly different to renationalise them. These aren't my views I'm telling you what people tell me and they're saying that they don't want to go back to the powerful unions, three day week, strikes etc. I'm not sure how efficient the nationalised industries are in Germany either. There was certainly an issue of inefficiencies in the old nationalised industries. My mum used to work for the water board and people used to steal all the pipes and use them to their private plumbing jobs that they did in work time. And I once did a summer job in someone's place and it took me a day to do what he took a week to do. I'm not sure if there's that culture of taking the piss in Germany.
Calling something as popular in theory doesn't mean you'll actually vote for the party that has that as a policy.
Miliband should never have been the leader either. I wouldn't have voted for him as leader of the school tuck shop, so that was always an own-goal by the LP. David Milliband would have much more credible.
Corbyn may have lost votes in the north over Brexit but he didn't lose Kensington as a result of Brexit, for instance, which was 69% Remain. I know that's what he likes to think is the reason he lost, plus the anti-semitism thing, but that's not what I've been hearing or reading from people. If they continue to believe that and vote Corbyn Mark 2 in, I think they'll continue to lose. | | | |
| Good Luck UK on 02:42 - Dec 15 with 1520 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
It wasn’t meant as a straw man, it was a demonstration that the electorate tail shouldn’t wag the party dog because that’s how we end up with Trump and Johnson. A party puts an idea forward and then tries its’s best to convince the electorate.
Germany is the largest economy in Europe and has things like Rent controls. It’s almost a perfect demonstration of the 2019 Labour manifesto. By the way, the Financial Times backed Labour’s economic plans over the Tory one. The Three Day week saga is nearly 50 years old by the way. We may as well talk about the Suez Crisis or the Profumo affair and the effect they had on the 2019 election.
David Miliband left the Labour Party almost as soon as he lost the leadership vote. Do you think he’d be a good person to have in a crisis? He is also inextricably linked with Hilary Clinton and her politics. Look how that went!
Maybe me and you should form a insomniacs party. [Post edited 15 Dec 2019 2:48]
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