| Diversity Targets for Managers... 17:39 - Jul 29 with 2428 views | Chesham_Saint |
A good idea?
I think I have a fair idea which way this debate might go... |  |
| |  |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 22:39 - Jul 30 with 547 views | JaySaint |
Equal opportunity (which is vital) does not result in equal outcome.
Manufacturing equal outcome is a race to the bottom |  |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 00:09 - Jul 31 with 528 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 22:39 - Jul 30 by JaySaint |
Equal opportunity (which is vital) does not result in equal outcome.
Manufacturing equal outcome is a race to the bottom |
How would you propose that black players are given an equal opportunity to become managers? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 09:49 - Jul 31 with 505 views | Sadoldgit |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 22:35 - Jul 30 by Ron11 |
Merit is the key, whatever colour or gender. |
So what is it that makes white people “better” managers and coaches than black people? |  | | |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 10:12 - Jul 31 with 500 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 09:49 - Jul 31 by Sadoldgit |
So what is it that makes white people “better” managers and coaches than black people? |
Now you’re just being deliberately contrary. | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 10:33 - Jul 31 with 488 views | JaySaint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 00:09 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
How would you propose that black players are given an equal opportunity to become managers? |
are they stopped from attending coaching courses?
are they prevented from passing the required coaching courses
are they prevented from succeeding as a player
are they prevented from applying for managerial jobs
are they overlooked for better candidates
I ask you this, what black manager in the UK would you rather have instead of Ralph?
Sol Campbell? Chris Powell? What about Chris Hughton? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 10:35 - Jul 31 with 484 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 10:33 - Jul 31 by JaySaint |
are they stopped from attending coaching courses?
are they prevented from passing the required coaching courses
are they prevented from succeeding as a player
are they prevented from applying for managerial jobs
are they overlooked for better candidates
I ask you this, what black manager in the UK would you rather have instead of Ralph?
Sol Campbell? Chris Powell? What about Chris Hughton? |
You seem to be saying that there is already equality of opportunity for black players to become managers?
Have I understood you correctly? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:09 - Jul 31 with 472 views | JaySaint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 10:35 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
You seem to be saying that there is already equality of opportunity for black players to become managers?
Have I understood you correctly? |
can you prove otherwise? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:31 - Jul 31 with 456 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:09 - Jul 31 by JaySaint |
can you prove otherwise? |
Before I respond, is that what you are saying? You think that there is already equality of opportunity for black players to become managers? | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:37 - Jul 31 with 450 views | JaySaint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:31 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
Before I respond, is that what you are saying? You think that there is already equality of opportunity for black players to become managers? |
Equality of opportunity to become a manager. yes
I have the exact same chance as a pier, who has black skin | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:40 - Jul 31 with 449 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:37 - Jul 31 by JaySaint |
Equality of opportunity to become a manager. yes
I have the exact same chance as a pier, who has black skin |
OK, thank you, and do you think that, generally speaking, black players are less able to be good managers than white players? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:46 - Jul 31 with 444 views | JaySaint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:40 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
OK, thank you, and do you think that, generally speaking, black players are less able to be good managers than white players? |
Depends if they are good enough.
Equal outcome is not the same as equal opportunity.
or is it racist that Chris Houghton is a better manager than 99.9% of the white population? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:57 - Jul 31 with 439 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:46 - Jul 31 by JaySaint |
Depends if they are good enough.
Equal outcome is not the same as equal opportunity.
or is it racist that Chris Houghton is a better manager than 99.9% of the white population? |
Sorry to be pedantic, but that wasn't the question. Do you think that IN GENERAL black players have fewer of the skills needed to become managers than white players.
You're not a racist, so I assume that you don't think that there's anything about black players in general to stop them becoming good managers? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:01 - Jul 31 with 432 views | JaySaint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 11:57 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
Sorry to be pedantic, but that wasn't the question. Do you think that IN GENERAL black players have fewer of the skills needed to become managers than white players.
You're not a racist, so I assume that you don't think that there's anything about black players in general to stop them becoming good managers? |
It is you labelling black people with failure, not me | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:11 - Jul 31 with 419 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:01 - Jul 31 by JaySaint |
It is you labelling black people with failure, not me |
I'm just asking you a question...but no matter...here's the thing...
Why, if
(1) Black players can manage just as well as white players; and
(2) There is equality of opportunity for manager's job
Are there so few black managers?
This is the question.
You say that (1) and (2) are correct, so how do you explain it? If the ability is there and the opportunity is there, why not the managers jobs.
I say that the small number of jobs MUST be evidence of no equality of opportunity. I just can't see that it is possible to explain it any other way.
But I am happy to listen, if you have an explanation. | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:21 - Jul 31 with 414 views | Bison |
Also seeing 35% of EPL players are black why is there a lack of goalies , also seeing the snooker starts today in Sheffield I can't think of any black snooker players. I don't know the answer but if you look you can find many examples of a lack of diversity. |  |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:30 - Jul 31 with 408 views | Boris_ |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:21 - Jul 31 by Bison |
Also seeing 35% of EPL players are black why is there a lack of goalies , also seeing the snooker starts today in Sheffield I can't think of any black snooker players. I don't know the answer but if you look you can find many examples of a lack of diversity. |
Also why are 35% of players black? Soppy doesn't think it's because they are better at football, so why are black men 10 times more likely to be a Premier League footballer than a white person? |  |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:34 - Jul 31 with 406 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:30 - Jul 31 by Boris_ |
Also why are 35% of players black? Soppy doesn't think it's because they are better at football, so why are black men 10 times more likely to be a Premier League footballer than a white person? |
This thread is about a lack of black managers.
Are you attempting to make a point about that, or just trying to muddy the waters as usual? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:36 - Jul 31 with 403 views | Boris_ |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:34 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
This thread is about a lack of black managers.
Are you attempting to make a point about that, or just trying to muddy the waters as usual? |
So you don't want to talk about positive stories? Just want to focus on the negatives?
Do you do anything other than cry like a little baby every day? Do you have any friends in the real world? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 13:12 - Jul 31 with 388 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 12:34 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
This thread is about a lack of black managers.
Are you attempting to make a point about that, or just trying to muddy the waters as usual? |
Is there a lack of black managers? I put it to you this could be a false premise. 10-13% of the U.K. population is not ‘caucasian’. So the balance includes a lot of non black people (eg Chinese, Asian, Polynesian). 5 out of 92 current managers are black, that’s about 5.5%, clearly less than the 10- 12 managers there ‘should be’.
However, being a manager is an incredibly volatile job and at times there have been more than 5 managers so perhaps we’re currently at a temporary low.
More importantly, 10-15 years ago there were what? 1 or 2 black managers? That figure has now doubled. With that kind of trend I’d wager that in a few years through natural progression there will easily be 10% of managers from minorities and after that probably a lot more.
Another point worth remembering is that this is not an English issue. Over half of our managers are from overseas. Why aren’t there more black managers in Spain, Germany, France and Italy? I don’t know the figures but I think it would be a fair bet that England is ahead of most If not all of those countries. | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 13:40 - Jul 31 with 380 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 13:12 - Jul 31 by Chesham_Saint |
Is there a lack of black managers? I put it to you this could be a false premise. 10-13% of the U.K. population is not ‘caucasian’. So the balance includes a lot of non black people (eg Chinese, Asian, Polynesian). 5 out of 92 current managers are black, that’s about 5.5%, clearly less than the 10- 12 managers there ‘should be’.
However, being a manager is an incredibly volatile job and at times there have been more than 5 managers so perhaps we’re currently at a temporary low.
More importantly, 10-15 years ago there were what? 1 or 2 black managers? That figure has now doubled. With that kind of trend I’d wager that in a few years through natural progression there will easily be 10% of managers from minorities and after that probably a lot more.
Another point worth remembering is that this is not an English issue. Over half of our managers are from overseas. Why aren’t there more black managers in Spain, Germany, France and Italy? I don’t know the figures but I think it would be a fair bet that England is ahead of most If not all of those countries. |
All good points, Chesham.
I have lived in southern France and Hungary, so happy to concede that we do better here than many other countries.
Also, agree that things have improved over the years. (When I started watching in the 70s, there weren't even many black players never mind managers). But all this progress has only come because people have identified issues and tried to do something about them, and I think there's still more to be done.
Is the comparison to the 13% of the UK population correct, when a much higher percentage of players are black. If the usual route is from player to manager, shouldn't we (eventually) expect 25%-30% of managers to be black.
It isn't just football, of course, the numbers of black people in senior managerial jobs generally is lower than it should be statistically. | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 13:54 - Jul 31 with 367 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 13:40 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
All good points, Chesham.
I have lived in southern France and Hungary, so happy to concede that we do better here than many other countries.
Also, agree that things have improved over the years. (When I started watching in the 70s, there weren't even many black players never mind managers). But all this progress has only come because people have identified issues and tried to do something about them, and I think there's still more to be done.
Is the comparison to the 13% of the UK population correct, when a much higher percentage of players are black. If the usual route is from player to manager, shouldn't we (eventually) expect 25%-30% of managers to be black.
It isn't just football, of course, the numbers of black people in senior managerial jobs generally is lower than it should be statistically. |
Senior managerial roles? That HAS to be on the basis of talent. I know quite a few very senior business women and they all got there on merit. Yes, they had to overcome barriers and in many cases had to work twice as hard as a man and put up with all kinds of shit, but they got to the top on merit.
They blazed a path and now it’s easier for the next generation. The same thing WILL happen for ethnic minorities too. Many might not like it, but I view this as one of the benefits of a market economy. | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 14:50 - Jul 31 with 351 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 13:54 - Jul 31 by Chesham_Saint |
Senior managerial roles? That HAS to be on the basis of talent. I know quite a few very senior business women and they all got there on merit. Yes, they had to overcome barriers and in many cases had to work twice as hard as a man and put up with all kinds of shit, but they got to the top on merit.
They blazed a path and now it’s easier for the next generation. The same thing WILL happen for ethnic minorities too. Many might not like it, but I view this as one of the benefits of a market economy. |
Must be right about trail-blazers and, yes, ultimately everything has to be on merit.
But, letting inevitable social change happen naturally does take an awfully long time - especially when there are always people around trying to maintain the status quo/or their own position of privilege (or who are insistent on denying that there's a problem) and do their best to resist even modest change.
In my view, it doesn't do too much harm if occasionally things are given a push in the right direction. | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 15:13 - Jul 31 with 339 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 14:50 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
Must be right about trail-blazers and, yes, ultimately everything has to be on merit.
But, letting inevitable social change happen naturally does take an awfully long time - especially when there are always people around trying to maintain the status quo/or their own position of privilege (or who are insistent on denying that there's a problem) and do their best to resist even modest change.
In my view, it doesn't do too much harm if occasionally things are given a push in the right direction. |
The example I gave of black managers’ progress wasn’t that long a time period and is clearly gaining momentum. In my view anyone worth their salt will want to know they’ve achieved on their own merits, not in some artificial way. I recruit someone for their skill and don’t care much about anything else (although I openly admit I’d go out of my way not to employ anyone who supported pompey). | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 15:28 - Jul 31 with 328 views | DorsetIan |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 15:13 - Jul 31 by Chesham_Saint |
The example I gave of black managers’ progress wasn’t that long a time period and is clearly gaining momentum. In my view anyone worth their salt will want to know they’ve achieved on their own merits, not in some artificial way. I recruit someone for their skill and don’t care much about anything else (although I openly admit I’d go out of my way not to employ anyone who supported pompey). |
Thing is, if people don't get there 'on merit', they're going to be found out soon enough anyway (especially as football managers) and lots of people are appointed to jobs they can't do very well. I don't see it as as big an issue as you do, and I'd rather a few incompetents got a (temporary) leg up, if it meant that the opportunities for the genuinely talented were improved.
Did you mention the pompey stuff at the tribunal? | |
| |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 16:07 - Jul 31 with 310 views | Chesham_Saint |
| Diversity Targets for Managers... on 15:28 - Jul 31 by DorsetIan |
Thing is, if people don't get there 'on merit', they're going to be found out soon enough anyway (especially as football managers) and lots of people are appointed to jobs they can't do very well. I don't see it as as big an issue as you do, and I'd rather a few incompetents got a (temporary) leg up, if it meant that the opportunities for the genuinely talented were improved.
Did you mention the pompey stuff at the tribunal? |
They get found out? Maybe they will, meanwhile a lot of other peoples’ jobs could be jeopardised by such a social engineering experiment.
It’s tough enough having to run a business in the first place without being a lab rat for politicians’ grand ideas, many of whom have never directly employed someone (or, more to the point, had to fire some poor sod) In their lives.
I’m sorry, but bollocks to all that. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
