| The (Art) Rooney rule 16:21 - Oct 1 with 6069 views | pioneer |
Sir Trevor Brooking OBE, MBE on the Rooney rule:
"I don't see why you shouldn't have three black coaches in the final shortlist if they're the best"
The rooney rule doesn't limit shortlists to one token visible minority, it limits it to being more than zero - so much for his 10 O levels - where they all in technical drawing?
"Some black coaches say they're not given a chance but I do think a lot of them have to get themselves in that position. There is a reluctance from people sometimes and they feel it should be handed to them."
And I thought Thatcher was dead - clearly her ideas aren't. Fortunately he is no longer at the FA, but I suspect his feelings remain within the establishment. It is attitudes like this that have held back football in England for so long.
Mind you he is from Barking. |  | | |  |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:03 - Oct 1 with 1386 views | nordenblue |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:15 - Oct 1 by rod_leach |
They may in fact, have a ready made reason, which is that chairman may shy away from employing black managers because they perceive them to be not as good as white candidates, regardless of if they are or not.
Sometimes positive discrimination helps redress the balance. In the long run it will hopefully not be needed but until that time I'm all for people being given a step up to reach the same level as others to start with. |
So a chairman should give the job to a black manager based purely on his skin colour and that he may require a step up,rather than a better option if available to a proven white manager? I can see that happening | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:38 - Oct 1 with 1371 views | rod_leach |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:03 - Oct 1 by nordenblue |
So a chairman should give the job to a black manager based purely on his skin colour and that he may require a step up,rather than a better option if available to a proven white manager? I can see that happening |
No. But the assumption is that a black person has to be better than an equivalent white candidate to get a job. One which I agree with. |  | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 22:34 - Oct 1 with 1326 views | nordenblue |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:38 - Oct 1 by rod_leach |
No. But the assumption is that a black person has to be better than an equivalent white candidate to get a job. One which I agree with. |
Which managers job given to a white manager in recent years should have instead been given to a "better" black manager then if thats your assumption? | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 23:10 - Oct 1 with 1317 views | D_Alien |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:47 - Oct 1 by pioneer |
I understand and accept the problems with tokenism, and again that is not what the Rooney rule is about.
If there were no black people in the NFL who were qualified (met the stated criteria) for the job then there would be no reason to have them interviewed.
However given the number of current and former black professional footballers (NFL in US, football in England) that is not a valid argument.
So lets say the Rochdale board say that one of the criteria is established success in taking teams to promotion in the football league, then you would be required to include at least one black manager who met this criteria on your short list (and it would also mean you could not include John Coleman!).
If your criteria was established success within the professional pyramid of football then john could be on the list but you would also have to include at least one black manager with success within the professional pyramid.
No one is telling anyone how many people they can interview, but they have to give a fair crack of the whip to everyone, and that includes other visible minorities IF THEY MEET THE CRITERIA.
Of course there could still be some who wanted to have as a criteria an Andy Murray complexion - but at least that would make their racism explicit. |
Ironically enough, I suspect your phrase "give everyone a fair crack of the whip" quite possibly comes from the slave trade!
But if you're going to use the Rooney Rule, what it's ALSO not about, but which you seem to be arguing here, is giving everyone who applies and meets certain criteria an interview. If that were the case, interviews for some posts would be almost endless and scores of potential candidates could claim some sort of discrimination if they weren't interviewed!
[Post edited 1 Oct 2014 23:15]
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 06:56 - Oct 2 with 1270 views | rod_leach |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 22:34 - Oct 1 by nordenblue |
Which managers job given to a white manager in recent years should have instead been given to a "better" black manager then if thats your assumption? |
I wouldn't know because they didn't get the chance to prove it. Let's face it most managers are much of a muchness and look to be on a merry go round. The fact that only a tiny fraction are black suggests that they aren't being given a fair chance. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 07:37 - Oct 2 with 1260 views | TommoRAFC |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 17:05 - Oct 1 by Brierls |
Why should a shortlist have one or more black managers name on it? It is reverse discrimination. If a manager is good enough he/she will get an opportunity and hold onto a managerial job, regardless of the colour of their skin.
Off the top of my head, I can think of Paul Ince, Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Chris Kiwomya & Terry O'Connor. How many of those would you class as a good managers? How many of those would you be happy with if Dale appointed them? I wouldn't want any of them at Dale, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of their managerial record and ability to manage on a shoestring budget.
What next? A campaign for more black swimmers? Or maybe more white sprinters? It's bonkers. |
The late Keith Alexander was a good manager in League Two and Chelsea and Newcastle had Ruud Gullit. still proves like you say, none are 'top class' so far. | |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 10:21 - Oct 2 with 1217 views | nordenblue |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 06:56 - Oct 2 by rod_leach |
I wouldn't know because they didn't get the chance to prove it. Let's face it most managers are much of a muchness and look to be on a merry go round. The fact that only a tiny fraction are black suggests that they aren't being given a fair chance. |
You can't deny people like Ince, Hughton, Powell, Alexander etc hadn't been given a chance to prove it as they've all had a number of years management experience and to most chairmen aren't as good an option as many currently available white managers.
Rather than use the race card as an excuse for failings it may well just be down to their skills as a manager perhaps that put chairmen off and their history of not achieving very much whilst previously managing. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 11:01 - Oct 2 with 1201 views | pioneer |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 23:10 - Oct 1 by D_Alien |
Ironically enough, I suspect your phrase "give everyone a fair crack of the whip" quite possibly comes from the slave trade!
But if you're going to use the Rooney Rule, what it's ALSO not about, but which you seem to be arguing here, is giving everyone who applies and meets certain criteria an interview. If that were the case, interviews for some posts would be almost endless and scores of potential candidates could claim some sort of discrimination if they weren't interviewed!
[Post edited 1 Oct 2014 23:15]
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No, it doesn't mean all applicants who meet the criteria must be interviewed, it means no matter how many you chose to short list for interview at least one must be a minority. and for those who think this is discriminatory, I doubt anyone would have a problem applying the same principle to whites, lets make sure at least one candidate is anglo saxon! I doubt that will involve any challenges in implementation though, it is de facto in operation today.
It seems people are looking hard for reasons not to adopt the rule, why not put the same effort into reasons why we should? THis is not about whether black managers have failed, there are lots of white managers who have failed time after time but still show up on short lists (and get appointed), its about giving qualified candidates an opportunity to be interviewed for positions. | | | |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 11:52 - Oct 2 with 1181 views | D_Alien |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 11:01 - Oct 2 by pioneer |
No, it doesn't mean all applicants who meet the criteria must be interviewed, it means no matter how many you chose to short list for interview at least one must be a minority. and for those who think this is discriminatory, I doubt anyone would have a problem applying the same principle to whites, lets make sure at least one candidate is anglo saxon! I doubt that will involve any challenges in implementation though, it is de facto in operation today.
It seems people are looking hard for reasons not to adopt the rule, why not put the same effort into reasons why we should? THis is not about whether black managers have failed, there are lots of white managers who have failed time after time but still show up on short lists (and get appointed), its about giving qualified candidates an opportunity to be interviewed for positions. |
"It seems people are looking hard for reasons not to adopt the rule, why not put the same effort into reasons why we should?"
People are looking at both sides of this issue, and after due deliberation the majority seem to be against it. That doesn't mean they've not given both sides of the coin sufficient thought.
I expect Trevor Brooking gave it a great deal of thought, but it was easy enough for you to castigate him in your OP. Being facile isn't exclusive to one side of the debate. | |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 11:56 - Oct 2 with 1170 views | Scunnydale |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 11:01 - Oct 2 by pioneer |
No, it doesn't mean all applicants who meet the criteria must be interviewed, it means no matter how many you chose to short list for interview at least one must be a minority. and for those who think this is discriminatory, I doubt anyone would have a problem applying the same principle to whites, lets make sure at least one candidate is anglo saxon! I doubt that will involve any challenges in implementation though, it is de facto in operation today.
It seems people are looking hard for reasons not to adopt the rule, why not put the same effort into reasons why we should? THis is not about whether black managers have failed, there are lots of white managers who have failed time after time but still show up on short lists (and get appointed), its about giving qualified candidates an opportunity to be interviewed for positions. |
I would love for there to be a higher proportion of black managers. You're quite right when you state the percentage of black footballers compared to managers is shockingly low.
I just don't see the answer being the Rooney Rule. Better coaching of coaches (?!) across the board, maybe. |  | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 14:57 - Oct 2 with 1106 views | something_dale |
I struggle to understand why any black manager would want to attend an interview unsure of whether they're in serious contention for the job or just there because they're needed to fulfill some anti-discriminatory quota. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 15:39 - Oct 2 with 1081 views | rod_leach |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 14:57 - Oct 2 by something_dale |
I struggle to understand why any black manager would want to attend an interview unsure of whether they're in serious contention for the job or just there because they're needed to fulfill some anti-discriminatory quota. |
Maybe because they have the relevant coaching credentials and qualifications and think that they can do the job? | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 15:50 - Oct 2 with 1070 views | D_Alien |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 15:39 - Oct 2 by rod_leach |
Maybe because they have the relevant coaching credentials and qualifications and think that they can do the job? |
That's exactly it though, rod.
If I were that black coach with everything you say - I'd still be thinking "have I been asked to attend for interview to fulfil a quota?"
Why put that doubt in someone's mind by introducing a rule - interviews are hard enough!
The subtleties of personality whereby one coach gets the job over another with very similar qualifications/experience are such that any doubts - acknowledged or not - can make a difference.
We all understand very clearly the argument put forward by those who're in favour of introducing the rule. To repeat again - we just think it might actually do more harm to the cause of equality of opportunity than good. | |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 16:28 - Oct 2 with 1041 views | pioneer |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 14:57 - Oct 2 by something_dale |
I struggle to understand why any black manager would want to attend an interview unsure of whether they're in serious contention for the job or just there because they're needed to fulfill some anti-discriminatory quota. |
Of course they would be in serious contention - they meet the criteria. The only way they would not be in serious contention would be if there was some hidden additional criteria like 'we don't want a black bloke'.
There are people around like that (see the recent hulabaloo at the Los Angeles Clippers basketball team) - but the associations have a duty to try and rid the game of such people. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:10 - Oct 2 with 999 views | D_Alien |
My final word on the matter.
But just to illustrate how recruitment (to any position) in the real world is far more complex and forward-thinking than an imposition of blunt quotas...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29343425 | |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:37 - Oct 2 with 895 views | pioneer |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:10 - Oct 2 by D_Alien |
My final word on the matter.
But just to illustrate how recruitment (to any position) in the real world is far more complex and forward-thinking than an imposition of blunt quotas...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29343425 |
Interesting. As the complex and forward thinking approach says:
"If you want diversity and a richer, more creative workplace, you need people from different backgrounds and experiences. Leave that to an algorithm and it will probably come up with the same type of person every time.
Talent Party's Ben Hutt agrees, saying: "When you apply data science to 10 million CVs, it becomes something really useful. But data science is never going to replace the face-to-face interview."
So lets provide minorities who meet the criteria with the opportunity to be interviewed.
To attend the party you need an invite. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 20:01 - Oct 2 with 881 views | nordenblue |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:37 - Oct 2 by pioneer |
Interesting. As the complex and forward thinking approach says:
"If you want diversity and a richer, more creative workplace, you need people from different backgrounds and experiences. Leave that to an algorithm and it will probably come up with the same type of person every time.
Talent Party's Ben Hutt agrees, saying: "When you apply data science to 10 million CVs, it becomes something really useful. But data science is never going to replace the face-to-face interview."
So lets provide minorities who meet the criteria with the opportunity to be interviewed.
To attend the party you need an invite. |
They have been interviewed hence quite a few black managers having previous managerial experience? if they're good enough they will rise to the top of the pile like every other suitable candidate | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 20:11 - Oct 2 with 879 views | TTNYear |
Pioneer, it's a naff rule that solves nowt.
Let say Right Wing Athletic, after this rule introduction do the correct thing and have nine white chaps and one black chap in for interviews. Chairman, Adolf still ain't going to recruit the black chap anyway. Assuming that Right Wing Athletic truly exists.
The cream (maybe not the best turn of phrase like) will always rise to the top. Why do we artificially have to introduce a rule that is more divisive than helpful. It's mad. I actually can't see any positive to it. |  |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 20:45 - Oct 2 with 855 views | pioneer |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 20:11 - Oct 2 by TTNYear |
Pioneer, it's a naff rule that solves nowt.
Let say Right Wing Athletic, after this rule introduction do the correct thing and have nine white chaps and one black chap in for interviews. Chairman, Adolf still ain't going to recruit the black chap anyway. Assuming that Right Wing Athletic truly exists.
The cream (maybe not the best turn of phrase like) will always rise to the top. Why do we artificially have to introduce a rule that is more divisive than helpful. It's mad. I actually can't see any positive to it. |
"The cream (maybe not the best turn of phrase like) will always rise to the top" -
. . . . . . when given the opportunity maybe . . . .oh, except where there are 'Right wing Athletics' where you imply it wont be able to, so not quite always I suppose.
What is divisive? A minimum of one qualified applicant from minorities and as many qualified candidates from non-minorities as you want. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 20:47 - Oct 2 with 853 views | TTNYear |
Why should a chairman have to invite someone who is possibly less able to do the job just because the colour of his skin? | |
| Anti-cliquism is the last refuge of the messageboard scoundrel - Copyright Dorset Dale productions |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:51 - Oct 2 with 828 views | rod_leach |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 20:47 - Oct 2 by TTNYear |
Why should a chairman have to invite someone who is possibly less able to do the job just because the colour of his skin? |
How does anyone know if they would possibly be less able to do the job? Can't tell until they have a chance to prove one way or the other. | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 22:19 - Oct 2 with 821 views | nordenblue |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:51 - Oct 2 by rod_leach |
How does anyone know if they would possibly be less able to do the job? Can't tell until they have a chance to prove one way or the other. |
Previous experience and achievement like any other job interview would indicate to a chairman the best candidate | | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 22:27 - Oct 2 with 814 views | isitme |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:51 - Oct 2 by rod_leach |
How does anyone know if they would possibly be less able to do the job? Can't tell until they have a chance to prove one way or the other. |
You can say that about any unsuccessful candidate for a job, regardless of their race, religion, age, political leanings etc. |  | | |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 22:29 - Oct 2 with 813 views | TTNYear |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 21:51 - Oct 2 by rod_leach |
How does anyone know if they would possibly be less able to do the job? Can't tell until they have a chance to prove one way or the other. |
True but you'd like to think their previous experience or/and qualifications may give a hint.... Like everyone else | |
| Anti-cliquism is the last refuge of the messageboard scoundrel - Copyright Dorset Dale productions |
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| The (Art) Rooney rule on 23:09 - Oct 2 with 786 views | D_Alien |
| The (Art) Rooney rule on 19:37 - Oct 2 by pioneer |
Interesting. As the complex and forward thinking approach says:
"If you want diversity and a richer, more creative workplace, you need people from different backgrounds and experiences. Leave that to an algorithm and it will probably come up with the same type of person every time.
Talent Party's Ben Hutt agrees, saying: "When you apply data science to 10 million CVs, it becomes something really useful. But data science is never going to replace the face-to-face interview."
So lets provide minorities who meet the criteria with the opportunity to be interviewed.
To attend the party you need an invite. |
But you also need to read my previous posts, based on experience within an organisation that employs almost 10000 people locally.
You keep responding, but failing to answer my question about why you think it's ok to cast totally unfounded aspersions on the character of Trevor Brooking.
That's what I'm measuring your responses by.
And yes, I'll need to stop posting "this is my final word..." | |
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