| Red Tape 19:52 - Jun 28 with 5615 views | BytholWyn |
It doesn't take a genius to work out that when a terrible tragedy on the scale of the one seen at Grenfell happens then something has probably gone terribly wrong with the regulatory framework. Even without any understanding of the specifics of the situation it's obvious that at even at "best" it could be a one-off case of a rogue builder slipping some shoddy and dangerous work past an inspector. But what is becoming eminently clear is that the Grenfell disaster could have happened at any of a huge number of properties across England. At the time of writing 120 high-rise buildings have failed inspection failures - a truly shocking 100% failure rate. This sort of systematic failure points unequivocally to a catastrophic regulatory regime failure.
This Newsnight article is very damning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40418266
What this article suggests is that the regulations in England that cover high-rise buildings are stringent enough - but that their enforcement has effectively been handed to the building industry itself to "interpret" as they see fit:
"The first thing to know is that local officials no longer run all building inspections. England has a so-called "Approved Inspector" regime. Contractors must no longer wait for a local authority official to check their work. Instead, they may hire people to check their construction processes meet the required standards. There is no single regulator - or arm of government - directly upholding standards."
It has been deemed legitimate for contractors to bypass the required A2 standard of low combustibility cladding by a variety of options, including "Desktop studies":
"Option 3 is for a so-called "desktop study":
"If I have conducted tests of a cladding product in a few different scenarios, then I might not need to bother with a new fire test. I can convince inspectors to sign it off by hiring an expert who will say "based on these results, I am confident that this cladding is safe in this context" without doing any further trials."
Just how self-serving these "studies" have been - carried out at the contractor's behest remember, not a council or government appointed inspector - is immediately obvious in the 100% failure rate of real-life scenario testing of the actual materials. It's not hard to see how an expert might have a vested interest in judging a design safe given who was paying for their services. Had every desktop survey they produced come up with a 100% failure (as it self-evidently should have) how many reports do you think the "expert" would have been commissioned to produce by the contractor? Any advance on one?
But it gets worse:
"We reported last night, however, on a troubling fourth route. The National House Builders' Council (NHBC) is a big player in building inspection. Last year, they issued guidance which states that you can use a variety of sub-A2 insulation boards with B-grade external cladding - and you can do all of that without even a desktop study.
That effectively means that a sector body has unilaterally decided that largely using B-grade material is now sufficient, not A2. NHBC themselves state that "this is on the basis of NHBC having reviewed a significant quantity of data from a range of tests and desktop assessments."
Truly shocking stuff - and yet outside of Newsnight this doesn't seem to have been picked up on by the wider media.
One of my immediate thoughts after the disaster was "I wonder how the cladding regulations and their enforcement differ between the UK and continental Europe". I needn't have looked so far away. So far, in Scotland, no high-rise building has been found to use the sort of cladding used in Grenfell (and apparently all over the place in England). This may just have something to do with regulations introduced in Scotland in 2005, following the death of a man in a tower block in Irvine in 1999: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-40406057 It's also worth noting that the Welsh Government has said that the specific brand of panel, Reynobond PE, is not in use in Wales. However, the results of on-going tests on the cladding used in Wales (including 14 in Swansea, the highest number in Wales) have yet to be published. It will be interesting to see if the results deviate from England, and if this is a reflection of any differences between the regulatory regimes in Wales and England.
Which brings me to the point of my article. The Tories have demonised red tape and regulation for decades - it's a part of the crazy neo-liberal (actually neo-anarchist would be closer to the mark) creed of the Tories. Don't take my word for it. Here's a direct quote from the Conservative Party Manifesto for the recent election:
"... poor and excessive government regulation limits growth for no good reason. So we will continue to regulate more efficiently, saving £9 billion through the Red Tape Challenge and the One-In-Two-Out Rule."
Red Tape exists for a reason. It's not some sort of fungus that grows surreptitiously in the night. It exists, invariably, to enhance public safety and well-being. At times it's cumbersome, at others out-dated, so a case can always be made for continually reviewing the necessity and scope of regulations. But the Tories have made a religion out of relentlessly attacking red tape. The shameful thing is that no other political party has offered any meaningful counterweight to their systematic attack on regulations and safe regulatory practice. Outsourcing the policing of regulations to self-interested bodies should be a complete no-no, because of the obvious conflicts of interest. But in the Tories feckless Brave New World anything goes. No one has stood up to them because defending Red Tape is as dull as ditch water, and doesn't win any votes.
No wonder the UK has became a World leader in man-made disasters. You'd think that we would learn to question our approach to things after calamities such as the one at Hillsborough. Nah, get another drink in... |  | | |  |
| Red Tape on 20:08 - Jun 28 with 4175 views | exiledclaseboy |
You're absolutely spot on. "Red tape challenge", "reducing regulation", "better regulation", "one in, two out" (where if a new regulation is introduced two existing ones have to be scrapped). These initiatives have been the mantra of government for about a decade now. They're fairly transparent money saving exercises dressed up in the cloak of encouraging growth and entrepreneurialism by reducing state interference. And to be fair, it's not limited to the Tories. These things begun in the latter years of the New Labour governments. But the last two governments have taken it to a whole new level. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 20:10]
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| Red Tape on 20:32 - Jun 28 with 4144 views | jack2jack |
Right so cutting down red tape is the way to go,so that rules, regulations, health and safety go out of the window,oh and now we are coming out of Europe,there won't be any need to stick to any of their legislation either.Brilliant, we are becoming third world,where anything goes. |  | | |
| Red Tape on 20:38 - Jun 28 with 4135 views | Loyal |
| Red Tape on 20:32 - Jun 28 by jack2jack |
Right so cutting down red tape is the way to go,so that rules, regulations, health and safety go out of the window,oh and now we are coming out of Europe,there won't be any need to stick to any of their legislation either.Brilliant, we are becoming third world,where anything goes. |
Tower blocks and stuff. |  |
| Nolan sympathiser, clout expert, personal friend of Leigh Dineen, advocate and enforcer of porridge swallows.
The official inventor of the tit w@nk. | | Poll: | Who should be Swansea number 1 |
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| Red Tape on 20:42 - Jun 28 with 4129 views | jack2jack |
| Red Tape on 20:38 - Jun 28 by Loyal |
Tower blocks and stuff. |
Eh!  | | | |
| Red Tape on 21:43 - Jun 28 with 4092 views | longlostjack |
To the OP that's an absolute top post. Well said and so true. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 21:47]
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| Red Tape on 21:54 - Jun 28 with 4070 views | Nogginthenog |
My own fear is that there will be so many people with a hand in all this deregulation that it will be virtually impossible to lay blame and therefore get justice for the victims and their families. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. |  | | |
| Red Tape on 22:08 - Jun 28 with 4050 views | Kerouac |
The Building Research Establishment quango was privatised under one Anthony Blair...supported by all those hypocrites in the Labour Party.
The self same quango is now failing all of those buildings in those tests.
The fire regulations in England are a mess and were last reviewed under Blair's Labour government.
Even with all of this hypocrisy and incompetence I still wouldn't label these idiots "murderers".
The Labour Party are f*cking scum.
That is all. |  |
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| Red Tape on 22:10 - Jun 28 with 4047 views | Nogginthenog |
| Red Tape on 22:08 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
The Building Research Establishment quango was privatised under one Anthony Blair...supported by all those hypocrites in the Labour Party.
The self same quango is now failing all of those buildings in those tests.
The fire regulations in England are a mess and were last reviewed under Blair's Labour government.
Even with all of this hypocrisy and incompetence I still wouldn't label these idiots "murderers".
The Labour Party are f*cking scum.
That is all. |
And the Tories are not? | | | |
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| Red Tape on 22:13 - Jun 28 with 4043 views | dickythorpe |
It's taken nearly 30years to sort out one disaster......I sincerely hope this one will be concluded properly much sooner. |  | | |
| Red Tape on 22:32 - Jun 28 with 4004 views | Kerouac |
| Red Tape on 22:10 - Jun 28 by Nogginthenog |
And the Tories are not? |
The Labour Party are scum because they politicised this tragedy and because their Marxist chancellor thinks it acceptable to label this Tory government "murderers"...anyone who pays attention to my posts will know that I have been warning from a long way off that it is not a potential rise of the far right that we need to be concerned about, it is the descent of the left that is the issue at hand.
Some facts;
- it wasn't an issue specific to a Tory council (as made out by Labour). It was a nationwide issue and involved plenty of Labour run councils
- if any party is responsible for the state of the fire regulations and the situation which allows companies to interpret them as they wish (paying an "expert" to rubber stamp the cladding's approval where the said expert has a business interest in ensuring that he gives them the answer they are paying for...) it is the Labour Party.
They seem to have made as big a mess out of regulating building standards as they did out of regulating the City of London...if memory serves that administration wanted to be seen as rock and roll as well.
All style no substance they were, a bit like the vacuous c*nts in charge of the Labour Party now. | |
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| Red Tape on 22:39 - Jun 28 with 3982 views | Gowerjack |
| Red Tape on 22:32 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
The Labour Party are scum because they politicised this tragedy and because their Marxist chancellor thinks it acceptable to label this Tory government "murderers"...anyone who pays attention to my posts will know that I have been warning from a long way off that it is not a potential rise of the far right that we need to be concerned about, it is the descent of the left that is the issue at hand.
Some facts;
- it wasn't an issue specific to a Tory council (as made out by Labour). It was a nationwide issue and involved plenty of Labour run councils
- if any party is responsible for the state of the fire regulations and the situation which allows companies to interpret them as they wish (paying an "expert" to rubber stamp the cladding's approval where the said expert has a business interest in ensuring that he gives them the answer they are paying for...) it is the Labour Party.
They seem to have made as big a mess out of regulating building standards as they did out of regulating the City of London...if memory serves that administration wanted to be seen as rock and roll as well.
All style no substance they were, a bit like the vacuous c*nts in charge of the Labour Party now. |
Dear me.
You really are a bit thick . |  |
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| Red Tape on 22:49 - Jun 28 with 3963 views | Private_Partz |
| Red Tape on 22:10 - Jun 28 by Nogginthenog |
And the Tories are not? |
He ignores that the vast majority of this occurred under a Tory watch. There will be few defenders nowadays of Blair and New Labour and the Labour Party of today is very different gravy.
His view is a typical Tory pose of blaming Labour. They can no longer blame the previous regime as it was them in the main as well.
How often did we hear that we were suffering austerity because of Labour's responsibility for the financial crash? The desperate Maybot still has a stab at that one when cornered despite her lot being in power for nearly a decade.
People have wised up. That tactic is old hat and will only help the revoulution that is a coming ;-) |  |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Red Tape on 22:52 - Jun 28 with 3955 views | Nogginthenog |
| Red Tape on 22:32 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
The Labour Party are scum because they politicised this tragedy and because their Marxist chancellor thinks it acceptable to label this Tory government "murderers"...anyone who pays attention to my posts will know that I have been warning from a long way off that it is not a potential rise of the far right that we need to be concerned about, it is the descent of the left that is the issue at hand.
Some facts;
- it wasn't an issue specific to a Tory council (as made out by Labour). It was a nationwide issue and involved plenty of Labour run councils
- if any party is responsible for the state of the fire regulations and the situation which allows companies to interpret them as they wish (paying an "expert" to rubber stamp the cladding's approval where the said expert has a business interest in ensuring that he gives them the answer they are paying for...) it is the Labour Party.
They seem to have made as big a mess out of regulating building standards as they did out of regulating the City of London...if memory serves that administration wanted to be seen as rock and roll as well.
All style no substance they were, a bit like the vacuous c*nts in charge of the Labour Party now. |
I don't agree with the portrayal of the Government as murderers for one moment. However, in my view the Tories have a penchant for turning a blind eye to regulations if it means some of their bedfellows can reap the rewards of higher profits. Their whole ethos is to destroy the society and social fabric of this country on the altar of profit. If you cant see that then you are blind. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 22:54]
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| Red Tape on 22:53 - Jun 28 with 3948 views | Gowerjack |
| Red Tape on 22:52 - Jun 28 by Nogginthenog |
I don't agree with the portrayal of the Government as murderers for one moment. However, in my view the Tories have a penchant for turning a blind eye to regulations if it means some of their bedfellows can reap the rewards of higher profits. Their whole ethos is to destroy the society and social fabric of this country on the altar of profit. If you cant see that then you are blind. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 22:54]
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Yep.
It's not difficult to understand is it? | |
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| Red Tape on 22:54 - Jun 28 with 3946 views | Kerouac |
| Red Tape on 22:39 - Jun 28 by Gowerjack |
Dear me.
You really are a bit thick . |
Tremendous argument you make there, lots of salient points...on reflection you must be right it's all the Tories fault.
They want people to burn to death and dine on dead babies etc. and it has nothing to do with the fire regulations and the agency which enforces building regulations...vote "the milky bars are on me!" Jezza and all our problems will be solved. We won't need trident, there will be peace on earth etc.
The reason why this country is in the state it is in is because we have allowed standards to fall off the edge of a cliff, and have ended up in a situation where completely useless pillocks like yourself somehow believe they are superior.
F*ck off. | |
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| Red Tape on 22:55 - Jun 28 with 3941 views | Gowerjack |
| Red Tape on 22:54 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
Tremendous argument you make there, lots of salient points...on reflection you must be right it's all the Tories fault.
They want people to burn to death and dine on dead babies etc. and it has nothing to do with the fire regulations and the agency which enforces building regulations...vote "the milky bars are on me!" Jezza and all our problems will be solved. We won't need trident, there will be peace on earth etc.
The reason why this country is in the state it is in is because we have allowed standards to fall off the edge of a cliff, and have ended up in a situation where completely useless pillocks like yourself somehow believe they are superior.
F*ck off. |
As I was saying. | |
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| Red Tape on 22:57 - Jun 28 with 3935 views | max936 |
| Red Tape on 22:49 - Jun 28 by Private_Partz |
He ignores that the vast majority of this occurred under a Tory watch. There will be few defenders nowadays of Blair and New Labour and the Labour Party of today is very different gravy.
His view is a typical Tory pose of blaming Labour. They can no longer blame the previous regime as it was them in the main as well.
How often did we hear that we were suffering austerity because of Labour's responsibility for the financial crash? The desperate Maybot still has a stab at that one when cornered despite her lot being in power for nearly a decade.
People have wised up. That tactic is old hat and will only help the revoulution that is a coming ;-) |
No wonder she was able to find a Billion quid down the back of the Sofa to pay the DUP to keep her lot in power. |  |
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| Red Tape on 23:02 - Jun 28 with 3920 views | Kerouac |
When is McDonnell going to be sacked then? | |
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| Red Tape on 23:02 - Jun 28 with 3922 views | Nogginthenog |
| Red Tape on 22:54 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
Tremendous argument you make there, lots of salient points...on reflection you must be right it's all the Tories fault.
They want people to burn to death and dine on dead babies etc. and it has nothing to do with the fire regulations and the agency which enforces building regulations...vote "the milky bars are on me!" Jezza and all our problems will be solved. We won't need trident, there will be peace on earth etc.
The reason why this country is in the state it is in is because we have allowed standards to fall off the edge of a cliff, and have ended up in a situation where completely useless pillocks like yourself somehow believe they are superior.
F*ck off. |
A bit sad you have to resort to that level, just confirms your blind following of such reckless lunatics as May and her predecessors is as misguided as your opinion of the Labour party who will soon enough put the Maybot to the sword. | | | |
| Red Tape on 23:07 - Jun 28 with 3905 views | Kerouac |
| Red Tape on 23:02 - Jun 28 by Nogginthenog |
A bit sad you have to resort to that level, just confirms your blind following of such reckless lunatics as May and her predecessors is as misguided as your opinion of the Labour party who will soon enough put the Maybot to the sword. |
So it's alright for Gowerjack to respond to my points with;
"You're thick"
...but if I put him in his place you're aghast?
Corbyn logic | |
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| Red Tape on 23:11 - Jun 28 with 3892 views | Gowerjack |
| Red Tape on 23:07 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
So it's alright for Gowerjack to respond to my points with;
"You're thick"
...but if I put him in his place you're aghast?
Corbyn logic |
But you are.
It's quite clear.
Why don't you try reading the posts on this thread and the associated content with a clear mind and try to understand the underlying issue without your Tory party hat on.
Go on try it. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 23:14]
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| Red Tape on 23:14 - Jun 28 with 3880 views | Nogginthenog |
| Red Tape on 23:07 - Jun 28 by Kerouac |
So it's alright for Gowerjack to respond to my points with;
"You're thick"
...but if I put him in his place you're aghast?
Corbyn logic |
As we were saying... | | | |
| Red Tape on 23:19 - Jun 28 with 3868 views | Kerouac |
| Red Tape on 22:52 - Jun 28 by Nogginthenog |
I don't agree with the portrayal of the Government as murderers for one moment. However, in my view the Tories have a penchant for turning a blind eye to regulations if it means some of their bedfellows can reap the rewards of higher profits. Their whole ethos is to destroy the society and social fabric of this country on the altar of profit. If you cant see that then you are blind. [Post edited 28 Jun 2017 22:54]
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You don't agree with it but you'll still vote for the c*nts right?
Ha ha.
I will repeat as you didn't understand the first time...it was Blair and Labour that f*cked this one up and from there this kind of tragedy was always going to happen, got that ?
If Gordon Brown and Ed Milliband had stormed to victories those people in that tower would still have burned to death in their death trap tower. To pretend otherwise is to delude yourself...
...and talking of delusion,
making a profit is kind of essential actually and should not be denigrated at every opportunity. When we reach the point (like we have in Wales) where average pay is higher in the public sector than the private we are TRULY on our way to the place called '3rd World Country'. | |
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