| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich 13:02 - Feb 14 with 109929 views | loftboy |
Should the worst happen and the Russians invade, I suspect that many rich Russians in the UK will be part of the proposed sanctions, could this affect our foes down the road? |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:36 - Feb 25 with 2931 views | Clive_Anderson |
I'm surprised anyone is buying the Russian propaganda that the invasion is justified because Ukraine is going to join NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign country free to join whichever organisation it wants and NATO is a defensive pact that has never threatened Russia.
It's not like Ukraine were going to join it anytime soon anyway, so this was all a flimsy excuse to invade. If NATO was so threatening then why does Russia want to move its borders even closer to the countries it is worried about?
Also if Ukraine if full of Nazis how come they just elected a Jewish comedian as president? |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:39 - Feb 25 with 2906 views | JamesB1979 |
As Clive said above, I find it incredible Russian football sides have not been kicked out of all competitions. This should be an indefinite ban. How can Russia play in a World Cup playoff game? If governing bodies do nothing then likes of England, Germany, France that claim to be “behind” Ukraine, should pull out of the World Cup. Let Russia play Qatar in the final. They should not be allowed to play international sport. That would make them a “Pariah”.
Next, if we frozen assets….why not seize them and use the money for helping people with energy bills and NhS and education. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:42 - Feb 25 with 2890 views | Northernr |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:39 - Feb 25 by JamesB1979 |
As Clive said above, I find it incredible Russian football sides have not been kicked out of all competitions. This should be an indefinite ban. How can Russia play in a World Cup playoff game? If governing bodies do nothing then likes of England, Germany, France that claim to be “behind” Ukraine, should pull out of the World Cup. Let Russia play Qatar in the final. They should not be allowed to play international sport. That would make them a “Pariah”.
Next, if we frozen assets….why not seize them and use the money for helping people with energy bills and NhS and education. |
They've been using things like the World Cup, Olympics etc to 'sportwash' the regime for ages, and football and the IOC has lapped up all the lovely money and gleefully gone along with it. The very least you can do is boot them out of everything. It's ridiculous that they haven't. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:43 - Feb 25 with 2881 views | JamesB1979 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:35 - Feb 25 by BazzaInTheLoft |
You’ve given four mitigating examples then attacked people bring up mitigating examples.
We the UK will probably suffer the least from full sanctions. We rely on their gas the least and have the industrial potential to convert to renewables a lot quicker than any other country.
Cowardice on the part of the UK.
The solution comes from within. Heartening to see tens of thousands of protesters. A slither of hope [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 12:40]
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Uk? I think you may be slightly over-emphasising our importance. We can’t do anything unless Other countries do it with us. The impact of us acting independently, will have limited impact. We send troops in, we start a full scale war between Russia and NATO. We can’t stop SwIFt system unless other countries like Germany agree to it. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:46 - Feb 25 with 2869 views | BostonR |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:19 - Feb 25 by Northernr |
Isn't the problem here that you can't attack him or go in with Ukraine without risking a nuclear WW3, and you can't sanction him as much as you could/should because you've allowed yourself to become reliant on not only their oil and gas but other stuff - Russia is like a third of the world's wheat supply for example. India now panicking because they get all their fertilizer from there etc.
He knows this, which is why he feels he can do what he likes. They won't even chuck their bloody football teams out, because the tournaments have become hooked to all that lovely Gazprom money. Fcking sick. How on earth are Spartak Moscow in that cup draw today? That's sport in 2022.
Best hope is that thread above, that it hobbles him domestically and leads to his eventual downfall. But that's long and drawn out, and the poor Ukrainians are going to suffer terribly in the meantime. Had a couple of messages back this morning from people I met and worked with there on a few trips, now sheltering in basements from bombs.
Thoroughly sht. And anybody coming up with mitigation, whataboutery, 'fault on both sides' bullsht. This is a murderous dictator invading and attacking a neutral country because he wants it. That's it.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
This is bang-on the money.
Putin is touting his nuclear option because he thinks no-one will call his bluff. He needs to understand very quickly (because he will not stop at Ukraine) that he risks having his beloved homeland and military apparatus destroyed by the West.
Do we wait until he marches into the Baltics and Poland? If we are going to have a major confrontation with Russia, then the time is now. Let's give Ukraine what they need, let's provide them with advice and the lethal weapons and air-cover to throw him back to Moscow. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:46 - Feb 25 with 2864 views | derbyhoop |
There aren't many people justifying Russian action. Apart from Aaron Banks and Nigel Farage.
By your friends we will know you. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:56 - Feb 25 with 2791 views | Juzzie |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:36 - Feb 25 by Clive_Anderson |
I'm surprised anyone is buying the Russian propaganda that the invasion is justified because Ukraine is going to join NATO. Ukraine is a sovereign country free to join whichever organisation it wants and NATO is a defensive pact that has never threatened Russia.
It's not like Ukraine were going to join it anytime soon anyway, so this was all a flimsy excuse to invade. If NATO was so threatening then why does Russia want to move its borders even closer to the countries it is worried about?
Also if Ukraine if full of Nazis how come they just elected a Jewish comedian as president? |
Ukraine absolutely has the right to join what ever organisation they choose to. The problem is that Putin doesn't recognise Ukraine as a separate and independent country and I suspects wants it back. It's a land grab IMO.
How the hell do you deal with that kind of mentality?? |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:08 - Feb 25 with 2740 views | R_from_afar |
"You can't sanction him as much as you could/should because you've allowed yourself to become reliant on not only their oil and gas but other stuff".
It would be good to remember this when some unenlightened person starts going on about renewables being intermittent.
Yes, they are, but
- Energy can be stored (stored energy in the form of water pumped to an elevated reservoir is usually the energy system which is switched on when the ad break starts during a popular television programme)
- Oil and gas are intermittent if they have to be shipped to the UK from overseas.
Sad days, I am praying that the conflict ends soon and that this madness will lead to Putin's compatriots ousting him.
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'till their judgment day comes, yeah! |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:10 - Feb 25 with 2730 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:08 - Feb 25 by R_from_afar |
"You can't sanction him as much as you could/should because you've allowed yourself to become reliant on not only their oil and gas but other stuff".
It would be good to remember this when some unenlightened person starts going on about renewables being intermittent.
Yes, they are, but
- Energy can be stored (stored energy in the form of water pumped to an elevated reservoir is usually the energy system which is switched on when the ad break starts during a popular television programme)
- Oil and gas are intermittent if they have to be shipped to the UK from overseas.
Sad days, I am praying that the conflict ends soon and that this madness will lead to Putin's compatriots ousting him.
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'till their judgment day comes, yeah! |
Sorry down voted by mistake! Totally agree. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 13:12]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:11 - Feb 25 with 2730 views | joe90 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:56 - Feb 25 by Juzzie |
Ukraine absolutely has the right to join what ever organisation they choose to. The problem is that Putin doesn't recognise Ukraine as a separate and independent country and I suspects wants it back. It's a land grab IMO.
How the hell do you deal with that kind of mentality?? |
I don't want to sound pedantic but, it's important to point out...
The Ukraine does not have the right to join NATO and nor does any other country. Ukraine has the right to apply. There is an important difference here. Ukraine's right to apply does not guarantee the application will be accepted.
[Post edited 25 Feb 2022 13:17]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:15 - Feb 25 with 2696 views | Juzzie |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:11 - Feb 25 by joe90 |
I don't want to sound pedantic but, it's important to point out...
The Ukraine does not have the right to join NATO and nor does any other country. Ukraine has the right to apply. There is an important difference here. Ukraine's right to apply does not guarantee the application will be accepted.
[Post edited 25 Feb 2022 13:17]
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Fair point! Putin then doesn't want them to apply and is now beating them up because they want to. Playground bully, on a scary scale. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:16 - Feb 25 with 2695 views | Orthodox_Hoop |
I can see this isn't the time nor place to discuss things, especially when innocent lives are at stake. Of course peoples emotions are high which is to be expected so soon into a conflict like this one. What I will say is this. I am a Serbian man born and bred in the UK, and can honestly say Serbia has never had a true friend in Russia, a leader, since Tsar Nicholas II - so basically since 1918. Every Russian leader since then has either had territorial or political pretensions towards Serbia (apart from Gorbachev and Yeltsin) and the myth that Russians are our brothers is grotesque in the sense that we are prisoners of their politics to this day. I'm horrified by Serbs who deify Putin and are supporting what he is doing, enjoying the calamity that has befallen Ukraine - a people who in their history have never done a bad thing towards us. I don't know what else to say other than saying Putin is a c u next Tuesday. However, as a historian I am compelled to look at what has brought us to these events, and while most people cling on to this notion that Putin is a tin pot madman intent on taking over the world I assure you he is far more crafty and clever than that. This was a calculated event which probably had the backing of at least a few other World Powers (I'm thinking China here - look what happens in Taiwan soon). Hope it all ends soon and thoughts and prayers with honest innocent Ukrainians caught up in this. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:27 - Feb 25 with 2623 views | ted_hendrix |
Spare a thought for Mr Ukraine, an ordinary bloke who has had to grab his wife and two kids, his dog and cat and run like hell leaving behind his very existance that he's fought so hard to protect, his home his future all just about to disappear.
He never done no harm to nobody he just got on with his life trying to keep his shit together and now it's all gone, his two kids will be terrified as will his wife.
WTF has he done to deserve this?
Just an ordinary bloke like most of us living here, I don't know who he is but I hope he and his family makes to some sort of an existance.
The poor bastard, the poor ordinary Mr Ukraine bloke, all he ever wanted to do is keep his family and shit together like all of us, yes spare a thought for him.
We'll f uck this planet of ours, we honestly will. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:35 - Feb 25 with 2595 views | gobbles |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:56 - Feb 25 with 2488 views | Juzzie |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:27 - Feb 25 by ted_hendrix |
Spare a thought for Mr Ukraine, an ordinary bloke who has had to grab his wife and two kids, his dog and cat and run like hell leaving behind his very existance that he's fought so hard to protect, his home his future all just about to disappear.
He never done no harm to nobody he just got on with his life trying to keep his shit together and now it's all gone, his two kids will be terrified as will his wife.
WTF has he done to deserve this?
Just an ordinary bloke like most of us living here, I don't know who he is but I hope he and his family makes to some sort of an existance.
The poor bastard, the poor ordinary Mr Ukraine bloke, all he ever wanted to do is keep his family and shit together like all of us, yes spare a thought for him.
We'll f uck this planet of ours, we honestly will. |
Yup. Applies to 99.9999999999% of the people in the world while the 0.00000000001% fk it up for everyone else. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:10 - Feb 25 with 2431 views | BklynRanger |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 12:07 - Feb 25 by robith |
Does anyone else like....not know their opinions are or what is right?
Obvs Putin is a homophobic, racist dictator who is waging an illegal imperialist war. I don't want a war, but sanctions don't feel like enough? Or certainly not the sanctions we're imposing? I'm no lover of NATO either - they're obviously not on Putin's level, but they're not an an organisation I'd want to ride my high horse about. Maybe if in the UK I'd feel better if our economic sanctions were incredibly severe, but I feel like Russian cash has too much of a perfidious influence in our public life for us to do something that matter? I dunno, I just feel like we're just letting the people of the Ukraine get sacrificed on an alter, but I don't know what the answer is? |
I'm embarrassed watching a lot of this footage but really don't know what the response should be.
Don't know if anyone saw it but Clive Myrie had a Ukranian BBC colleague on about an hour ago. First question he asks is what she thought about advice to citizens to start making molotov cocktails - she's sitting there in Kyiv and just answers "Well what else can we do?".
Brainless question. The interview didn't last very long after that.
So regardless of some of the 'context setting' in this thread, and the existence of troubling elements on the fringes of Ukrainian society I'm embarrassed for us, 'The West' to be seen to cut them lose like this. But, at the same time, intervening could provoke a far wider conflict.
Either way it's hard to imagine Putin would get control of Ukraine and then decide he was ok with American military bases on Polish soil. As others have said it's hard to see where this ends at the minute. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:10 - Feb 25 with 2431 views | kropotkin41 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:27 - Feb 25 by ted_hendrix |
Spare a thought for Mr Ukraine, an ordinary bloke who has had to grab his wife and two kids, his dog and cat and run like hell leaving behind his very existance that he's fought so hard to protect, his home his future all just about to disappear.
He never done no harm to nobody he just got on with his life trying to keep his shit together and now it's all gone, his two kids will be terrified as will his wife.
WTF has he done to deserve this?
Just an ordinary bloke like most of us living here, I don't know who he is but I hope he and his family makes to some sort of an existance.
The poor bastard, the poor ordinary Mr Ukraine bloke, all he ever wanted to do is keep his family and shit together like all of us, yes spare a thought for him.
We'll f uck this planet of ours, we honestly will. |
Couldn't agree more except in one specific: the planet is already f*cked beyond repair. If only we could take the seriousness of our shared plight as a sign to stop this kind of f*ckin nonsense. Acceptance of a terminal diagnosis they say often brings peace, clarity and love. |  |
| ‘morbid curiosity about where this is all going’ |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:35 - Feb 25 with 2348 views | Sonofpugwash |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 13:16 - Feb 25 by Orthodox_Hoop |
I can see this isn't the time nor place to discuss things, especially when innocent lives are at stake. Of course peoples emotions are high which is to be expected so soon into a conflict like this one. What I will say is this. I am a Serbian man born and bred in the UK, and can honestly say Serbia has never had a true friend in Russia, a leader, since Tsar Nicholas II - so basically since 1918. Every Russian leader since then has either had territorial or political pretensions towards Serbia (apart from Gorbachev and Yeltsin) and the myth that Russians are our brothers is grotesque in the sense that we are prisoners of their politics to this day. I'm horrified by Serbs who deify Putin and are supporting what he is doing, enjoying the calamity that has befallen Ukraine - a people who in their history have never done a bad thing towards us. I don't know what else to say other than saying Putin is a c u next Tuesday. However, as a historian I am compelled to look at what has brought us to these events, and while most people cling on to this notion that Putin is a tin pot madman intent on taking over the world I assure you he is far more crafty and clever than that. This was a calculated event which probably had the backing of at least a few other World Powers (I'm thinking China here - look what happens in Taiwan soon). Hope it all ends soon and thoughts and prayers with honest innocent Ukrainians caught up in this. |
Re. China,they've been making covetous eyes on Taiwan for decades now.If they were to invade and control the semiconductor industry they could call the tune.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-01-25/the-world-is-dangerously-depe
And there's the Belt and Road Initiative to consider.So much invested in it by the world banks that it makes no sense to have continents at war with each other.
I'm of the opinion that either sense prevails and Putin backs out of this fiasco or will face his Nicolae Ceaușescu moment. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:45 - Feb 25 with 2311 views | Sonofpugwash |
Will Spartak Moscow get chucked out of the Europa League?Just been drawn against Leipzig.
Champions League final to be played in Paris now. | |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:08 - Feb 25 with 2226 views | PlanetHonneywood |
Nothing of this nature is undertaken without the approval of Beijing. And they are sat watching avidly to see what the west does for China will see nothing sever will transpire to be a costly reprisal or future deterrent. |  |
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:20 - Feb 25 with 2171 views | QPR_Jim |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 11:33 - Feb 25 by GloryHunter |
Yes, Putin asked NATO to commit to never having Ukraine as a member. NATO refused, saying it was up to Ukraine to decide which organisations it wanted to be a member of. |
Fair enough, I'd have thought there would have been more negotiation and back and forth before it reaches the point of invasion though. |  | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:29 - Feb 25 with 2136 views | Whip_It |
The 'right' response to Putin is to stand up to him. There are sanctions and diplomatic measures that NATO / the EU can take that will add considerable pressure, and this is the direction we should be going in - up to and including military exercises in the region. We should also be bearing down hard on Russian money in this country, to the point of extreme unfairness if necessary. Anything other than a show of strength by the West will be taken as permission by Putin - not to mention sending a terrible signal about our lack of loyalty. The threat of nuclear war, WW3, nazi Ukrainians etc are just smokescreens providing cover and keeping the west on the back foot. | | | |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:40 - Feb 25 with 2095 views | loftus77 |
| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 14:35 - Feb 25 by Sonofpugwash |
Re. China,they've been making covetous eyes on Taiwan for decades now.If they were to invade and control the semiconductor industry they could call the tune.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2021-01-25/the-world-is-dangerously-depe
And there's the Belt and Road Initiative to consider.So much invested in it by the world banks that it makes no sense to have continents at war with each other.
I'm of the opinion that either sense prevails and Putin backs out of this fiasco or will face his Nicolae Ceaușescu moment. |
I'm surprised our media doesn't make people more aware of the scale of the Belt and Road Initiative.
Probably most people 'in the street' are (understandably) unaware of 'BRI', yet its implications (of the Chinese govt owning and operating ports and transport links along major world trading routes; Africa, South Asia etc) ) are, IMHO, potentially enormous.
And one of these routes include the ports in the Russian Far North, so its a major future cornerstone of Sino-Russian co-operation in the future. One to watch closely. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 15:42]
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| Russia, Ukraine & Abramovich on 15:53 - Feb 25 with 2048 views | Greenbay |
Every Russian sports team and every Russian individual sportsperson should not be allowed to compete immediately in anything and anywhere.
This should happen straight away - a blanket ban.
All the Governing bodies of all sports should make this decision now.
Although this would be hard - as an example - on say Russian tennis players Daniil Medvedev - the new world number 1 and Andrey Rublev who has just reached the Dubai final, we have to think of the Ukrainian people and what they are going through now.
Rublev - following his victory today, wrote on the TV camera - 'No war please'.
Both are really nice guys - both are wonderful sportsmen - but we have to look at the bigger picture.
This immediate ban on Russian sport will have some effect.
Will it happen - highly unlikely - although there is some encouragement with the Russian F1 Grand Prix being moved along with the Champions League soccer final. It's a start. | | | |
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