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showing the inconsistency again, the arsenal non penalty check for two fouls in quick session showed its a nonsense or maybe that was mason and moss being in charge??
One of the daftest things I heard from a pundit yesterday 22 was Jonathan Woodgate praising and saying that Mike Dean is possibly the best Ref that we have. I have never been a fan of Woodgate (I think he is a nasty bit of work) but for him to make that comment you have to think he is deluded, drunk or completely out of touch with reality. If he seriously thinks that Dean is our best heaven knows what that says about the rest!
The only nonsense I can seem to see here is anyone that thinks there were two “fouls” for that incident. And anyway VAR did check both of them, but the match highlights clearly show that the late “kick” on white had minimal contact, and white was making the most of it, and the second ones were you’ve got 3 players going for the ball (lacazette and two Brentford players) where one Brentford lads won it, and the other two have missed it but had a bit of a collision in there, but seeing how the Brentford lad won it and there’s no serious endangering of player safety, it’s not a pen. Both pretty clear incidents
But the fact that there’s still arguments going on about incidents just shows of how VAR should simply be for back and white incidents, as you’ll always get debates for your typical fouls, but it’s only idiots that debate 99% of the offsides/mistaken identities/inside or out of the penalty area etc.
One of the daftest things I heard from a pundit yesterday 22 was Jonathan Woodgate praising and saying that Mike Dean is possibly the best Ref that we have. I have never been a fan of Woodgate (I think he is a nasty bit of work) but for him to make that comment you have to think he is deluded, drunk or completely out of touch with reality. If he seriously thinks that Dean is our best heaven knows what that says about the rest!
The best right now is 100% Michael Oliver or Anthony Taylor (hence why they’re the only two decent refs that get selected for the champions league, Euros, World Cup etc, games), although there’s certainly a few other decent refs out there, as Andy Madley yesterday was really decent lettering the game flow and not falling from all the pathetic simulation from the Everton players, as well as being one of the few refs that actually realise that footballs a contact sport!
The best right now is 100% Michael Oliver or Anthony Taylor (hence why they’re the only two decent refs that get selected for the champions league, Euros, World Cup etc, games), although there’s certainly a few other decent refs out there, as Andy Madley yesterday was really decent lettering the game flow and not falling from all the pathetic simulation from the Everton players, as well as being one of the few refs that actually realise that footballs a contact sport!
Taylor has been woeful when reffing us recently or maybe he is just another one of the Saints haters
Elijah, I get why you defend refs and I do understand that their job is difficult. However, there is no excuse for messing up VAR, which is down to the operators (ie. refs) that are running it, not the technology itself.
In my view, the insane level of protection some of the refs get from PGMOL/PL/FA borders on corruption. Unfortunately, as a direct consequence, I think it is only a matter of time before someone like Dean gets assaulted on the pitch by an idiot running onto the pitch. This is avoidable.
No one is asking for anything other than consistency and a basic level of competency.
Elijah, I get why you defend refs and I do understand that their job is difficult. However, there is no excuse for messing up VAR, which is down to the operators (ie. refs) that are running it, not the technology itself.
In my view, the insane level of protection some of the refs get from PGMOL/PL/FA borders on corruption. Unfortunately, as a direct consequence, I think it is only a matter of time before someone like Dean gets assaulted on the pitch by an idiot running onto the pitch. This is avoidable.
No one is asking for anything other than consistency and a basic level of competency.
Yeah your right that I do defend refs more than the average person would, and that’s something I completely agree with and get. But I really don’t wanna sound like an ass here, or some guy going around boasting about his knowledge etc… but it can be VERY frustrating to see clowns/idiots on the radio, tv or on here (and no that’s not directed at anyone specifically in this or any other chat) and other social media sites, criticise officials for something they know bugger all about. As I myself know all 17 (or 18 if you know that one) laws of the game, and know basically what to do for almost every circumstance/situation in a game (as in when the ball goes in from a throw on, a bird stops a penalty etc), and have officiated for many years and am basically an academy refyet most of the people you hear complaining about the officials probably couldn’t even name 3 of the LOTG, let alone all 17, yet criticise those that are more qualified than myself. As most people on here wouldn’t criticise a doctor for how they try and treat a disease, as they know what they’re doing, whilst people will criticise a ref, even though the gaps basically the same. And when you get situations like the Oliver one for Arsenal and Wolves, where people are criticising the ref for something he got SPOT ON, which was just pathetic and sad that people still didn’t except it after they’d checked up on the rules, meaning that no matter what Oliver did on the night, he’d of gotten stick ether way, which is the same for most incidents.
And for this Arsenal one on Saturday, well I’ve seen the replays and sorry but it’s not a pen for ether of two “fouls” or a handball later on in the game. And I undertake where people come from, as especially with the handball rule and how’s it’s changed 3 times over the last 3 years (as 3 years ago it was just the classic “had to be intentional” the last season it was “hits the hand then it’s a handball” and now it’s a bit more in the middle with “depends on the distance, time, power and location of the ball/hand and how natural it is”) which I get can be confusing for fans who don’t know all this, to understand (and seeing how people are with simulation it’s the same for that), but they are pretty consistent most of the time, it’s just that’s not highlighted when they are consistent, but it is highlighted when the odd occasion pops up when they did mess up.
As like I’ve told you before, most situations, refs are guaranteed to get stick, as it’s not all black and white, meaning that consistency is hard to come by. As I’ve spoken to Howard Webb before and he’s talked about how you can always be consistent as you get different games with different scenarios where you may have to be different in how you control the game, so it’s not alway something that you can do, as in a quiet game you can let off a debatable yellow, but in a rough one you need to give it out, to lower the risk of anything more serious happening. (He also says this in a video which I’ll post on here if I can find it). As yeah some refs do mess up more than others, but it’s still rare for them to DEFINITELY have messed up, and to get to the top as a ref in the first place isn’t easy, so maybe they’re just showing the refs a bit of loyalty for being around for soo long.
But we’ll always have opinions that differ for most scenarios (as many Everton fans say that Romeu did a handball and that it was a pen, whilst most saints fans say it wasn’t, who I agree with due to the rules around the new handball, hence why the ref got it right). But the fact that there’s still people complaining about VAR when we’ve had a weekend with no VAR screw ups for what I’ve seen is what annoys me, and is why unless it’s just for black and white scenarios, people will never fully be happy with VAR. And sorry but no one should take football seriously enough to go and assault a ref, as at the end of the day, refs may make the game harder to win and such, but a ref will never have actually costed you the points.
Yeah your right that I do defend refs more than the average person would, and that’s something I completely agree with and get. But I really don’t wanna sound like an ass here, or some guy going around boasting about his knowledge etc… but it can be VERY frustrating to see clowns/idiots on the radio, tv or on here (and no that’s not directed at anyone specifically in this or any other chat) and other social media sites, criticise officials for something they know bugger all about. As I myself know all 17 (or 18 if you know that one) laws of the game, and know basically what to do for almost every circumstance/situation in a game (as in when the ball goes in from a throw on, a bird stops a penalty etc), and have officiated for many years and am basically an academy refyet most of the people you hear complaining about the officials probably couldn’t even name 3 of the LOTG, let alone all 17, yet criticise those that are more qualified than myself. As most people on here wouldn’t criticise a doctor for how they try and treat a disease, as they know what they’re doing, whilst people will criticise a ref, even though the gaps basically the same. And when you get situations like the Oliver one for Arsenal and Wolves, where people are criticising the ref for something he got SPOT ON, which was just pathetic and sad that people still didn’t except it after they’d checked up on the rules, meaning that no matter what Oliver did on the night, he’d of gotten stick ether way, which is the same for most incidents.
And for this Arsenal one on Saturday, well I’ve seen the replays and sorry but it’s not a pen for ether of two “fouls” or a handball later on in the game. And I undertake where people come from, as especially with the handball rule and how’s it’s changed 3 times over the last 3 years (as 3 years ago it was just the classic “had to be intentional” the last season it was “hits the hand then it’s a handball” and now it’s a bit more in the middle with “depends on the distance, time, power and location of the ball/hand and how natural it is”) which I get can be confusing for fans who don’t know all this, to understand (and seeing how people are with simulation it’s the same for that), but they are pretty consistent most of the time, it’s just that’s not highlighted when they are consistent, but it is highlighted when the odd occasion pops up when they did mess up.
As like I’ve told you before, most situations, refs are guaranteed to get stick, as it’s not all black and white, meaning that consistency is hard to come by. As I’ve spoken to Howard Webb before and he’s talked about how you can always be consistent as you get different games with different scenarios where you may have to be different in how you control the game, so it’s not alway something that you can do, as in a quiet game you can let off a debatable yellow, but in a rough one you need to give it out, to lower the risk of anything more serious happening. (He also says this in a video which I’ll post on here if I can find it). As yeah some refs do mess up more than others, but it’s still rare for them to DEFINITELY have messed up, and to get to the top as a ref in the first place isn’t easy, so maybe they’re just showing the refs a bit of loyalty for being around for soo long.
But we’ll always have opinions that differ for most scenarios (as many Everton fans say that Romeu did a handball and that it was a pen, whilst most saints fans say it wasn’t, who I agree with due to the rules around the new handball, hence why the ref got it right). But the fact that there’s still people complaining about VAR when we’ve had a weekend with no VAR screw ups for what I’ve seen is what annoys me, and is why unless it’s just for black and white scenarios, people will never fully be happy with VAR. And sorry but no one should take football seriously enough to go and assault a ref, as at the end of the day, refs may make the game harder to win and such, but a ref will never have actually costed you the points.
Here’s the video I’m on about, which is a perfect way to explain of why consistently isn’t something that can be done for all situations (as yeah handballs, offsides and the things like that you should be, but the rest isn’t always something you can be consistent about).
Here’s the video I’m on about, which is a perfect way to explain of why consistently isn’t something that can be done for all situations (as yeah handballs, offsides and the things like that you should be, but the rest isn’t always something you can be consistent about).
I do get the point about consistency and appreciate how difficult it is to be consistent between games. However, I think we've often seen inconsistency within the same game - which cannot be right!
There does seem to be an issue with VAR and I would love to get your take on it. It may be that perception and reality are not completely aligned but we have seen many games where VAR has patently failed - how can this be corrected?
I do disagree with your point about loyalty. Even if it is loyalty, it is misplaced as the actions of a handful of refs have a detrimental outcome not only to the teams that they are ref'ing but to the perception of the game as a whole ("bringing the game into disrepute"?). When you pay top dollar you have every right to expect the very best performance. Again, I think the issue is the lack of transparency that exists. I feel that most supporters would be happier if there were better explanations of some of the key decisions and an admittance of error (where it exists).
Unfortunately, it is all about perception and the perception at present is not good. As I've said, I have a real fear for the safety of match officials due to the perception that they are unaccountable.
I do get the point about consistency and appreciate how difficult it is to be consistent between games. However, I think we've often seen inconsistency within the same game - which cannot be right!
There does seem to be an issue with VAR and I would love to get your take on it. It may be that perception and reality are not completely aligned but we have seen many games where VAR has patently failed - how can this be corrected?
I do disagree with your point about loyalty. Even if it is loyalty, it is misplaced as the actions of a handful of refs have a detrimental outcome not only to the teams that they are ref'ing but to the perception of the game as a whole ("bringing the game into disrepute"?). When you pay top dollar you have every right to expect the very best performance. Again, I think the issue is the lack of transparency that exists. I feel that most supporters would be happier if there were better explanations of some of the key decisions and an admittance of error (where it exists).
Unfortunately, it is all about perception and the perception at present is not good. As I've said, I have a real fear for the safety of match officials due to the perception that they are unaccountable.
My view on VAR is simply that it will never appease everyone, so no matter what they change/do, it won’t really solve the issues completely, and no matter what solution is made, there will still be an odd flaw or two, here and there, which will always be highlighted by the media and such, no matter how rare it is, so there is always going to be controversy around it. As the incidents with Arsenal on Saturday, are pretty clearly not pens to me, but others disagree, and it’s the same for Romeu’s handball and such, hence why we still have threads that disregard it even though I think that all the major decisions of the weekend were correct (and that’s me as a ref or a fan, and isn’t me just saying it to defend refs). But that’s exactly why I think that VAR should be for just the black and white scenarios, as if we look at an example, goal line tech, and how techs been used for that, then we’ll see that there’s been just one incident throughout the like 4/5 years it’s been used for. And only idiots/sore losers complain about it. That’s why I think that VAR should be used for just black and white scenarios as well, as mistaken identity, offsides, whether it’s inside or outside the box, ball in and out of play etc, is all no different to goal line tech, on the fact that there just two outcomes to it, and when reviewing it, there’s no reason for mistakes, hence why only the sore losers/pathetic people complain about them, which should result it in being as accurate and well used as goal line tech. As if VAR’s just used for that, then it will be a success just like how goal line tech has been. Whilst if we continue to use it for other incidents, then yeah we’ll still have the blatant missed foul (Liverpool VS Palace, Newcastle VS Man City, Saints Vs Man City etc), but a majority of them will be just down to interpretations and opinions, which aren’t black and white, so will never please everyone, so why bother using it for them? As it will be the same without VAR, and at the end of the day, for the close/debatable decisions, our opinions are irrelevance, as like it says in law 12, fouls are down to the INTERPRETATION of the ref, with the help of their other match officials, so it’s irrelevant what we think. But that’s why we don’t need VAR for it, as it won’t change much, whilst the back and white scenarios it will change.
But with the whole consistency basis, I myself try and be consistent as possible when officiating games, but sometimes you get situations where you disregard the past/something looks slightly different to how the previous incident did so has a different outcome/a crowds or players reactions naturally deters you from what you’d consistent be giving etc so can’t always be consistent.
As you get different refs, for most games that you have, whether that’s your local Sunday league team, a semi pro one like Sholing or the likes of saints, and different refs (just like teams) have different tactics on how to officiate a game to the best of their standards. So I myself for example lets the game flow a lot, will play on/give advantage when I can, and remind players that it’s a contact sport, and am often strict over dissent, but at the same time try to get on with captains and players so that they speak to me in a more civilised manner and will explain my decisions to them. But also make sure to give out cards when people break rules/disrespect me. But other refs I know just say absolutely minimum in a game and just ignore any abuse that players get, whilst others I know will swear back at players but won’t book them for any dissent and others blow for every bit of contact and don’t let the game flow etc. The fact is that many refs have their own techniques based upon how they like/can cope with officiating games, and I myself based mine on my personality as well as what I’ve heard/learnt from speaking to former/current EFL/prem officials.
With the whole situation with why refs don’t get downgraded or such, in all honesty I don’t know as I don’t work for the people who decide that and am not at a level high enough to learn how it all works, but at the same time don’t necessary think that just a few poor decisions should get an official fired/downgraded.
And as you’ve said yourself, it’s about perception and there will always be debates hence why I think what I do about how VAR and such should work.
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