| The Lesser of Two Evils 13:55 - Apr 16 with 873 views | Olliekhent |
Right so here goes. Difficult subject this. We were chatting about it today at a work meeting.
It would seem this virus is not going away until we get a vaccine. There are some countries saying they are now experiencing a second wave after relaxing (in some cases) their lock-downs/restrictions. So, we are likely going to need to keep doing what we are doing for at least another 3 or 4 months. So, with this in mind, what state will the economy be in, and more importantly, how many will be broke, out of work, or both?
We are faced with a choice I believe. A lesser of two evils choice. It would seem that in the vast majority of cases, you are only a risk if you have an underlying existing condition of some sort. So, do we go back to work, save jobs, businesses, incomes, livelihoods etc. Or do we keep the lock down.
Looking at it from the future. Do we want to come out in a few months with millions unemployed and broke, repossessions left right and centre, an economy in ruins, having saved lives. Or do we want to go back to work and save livelihoods? Are people expendable on the basis that if we keep lock downs in place everyone loses? A cold way of looking at it, I know, but it is the truth of the matter I think. Or do we save as many lives as possible, knowing we may all come out of it buggered for many generations to come?
Think of the other side of it also. By bankrupting so many, we will see an increase in violent crime, robberies, suicide and god knows what else. This brings with it a whole boat load of problems in itself. I have simplified this somewhat but I think you get the idea of what I am trying to say. Which way do we go? |  |
| The only bad air around here is you guys farting around. |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:05 - Apr 16 with 854 views | Occasional_Showers |
The government have said all along they want to flatten the peak so that the NHS isn’t swamped. I think we have no option but to re-open in 3 weeks, cases will go up and then watch it and if cases start increasing too much go back into another lockdown. Basically keep turning the tap on and off so that the NHS can cope. Possibly with less stringent restrictions that allow the economy to get going again. Until we have a vaccine this isn’t going away. |  |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:12 - Apr 16 with 835 views | Olliekhent |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:05 - Apr 16 by Occasional_Showers |
The government have said all along they want to flatten the peak so that the NHS isn’t swamped. I think we have no option but to re-open in 3 weeks, cases will go up and then watch it and if cases start increasing too much go back into another lockdown. Basically keep turning the tap on and off so that the NHS can cope. Possibly with less stringent restrictions that allow the economy to get going again. Until we have a vaccine this isn’t going away. |
In the end though, will turning the tap on and off like that not just prolong the deaths? Would the death rate likely not equal what the rate would be if we just opened up for good? I am not sure, I am asking. But on and offing the tap seems to just be prolonging the inevitable. If it gets bad enough to have to lock down again, we are just infecting more and more, the same as we would if we went herd mentality, just over a longer period. | |
| The only bad air around here is you guys farting around. |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:17 - Apr 16 with 826 views | JaySaint |
Who would have thought, Herd Immunity is probably our way out until a vaccine arrives!!!
of course, Owen Jones and co will never admit they were wrong |  |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:53 - Apr 16 with 787 views | DorsetIan |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:05 - Apr 16 by Occasional_Showers |
The government have said all along they want to flatten the peak so that the NHS isn’t swamped. I think we have no option but to re-open in 3 weeks, cases will go up and then watch it and if cases start increasing too much go back into another lockdown. Basically keep turning the tap on and off so that the NHS can cope. Possibly with less stringent restrictions that allow the economy to get going again. Until we have a vaccine this isn’t going away. |
This is correct. A vaccine will not be here for 12/18 months and we can't lockdown until then.
Another three weeks will take us beyond the end of April when we should have testing at 100,000/day.
Increased testing, more sophisticated contact tracing, continuing social distancing and a selective approach to who can be released from lockdown will keep a lid on things. Different treatment options will hopefully also develop to reduce the death rate before a vaccine arrives. | |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 14:57 - Apr 16 with 782 views | Yarman |
No government in the world has or could be fully ready for this virus, so the lockdown is in place to buy time. It will start to be lifted in about 3 weeks time by allowing construction to start again to start a slow recovery in the economy by starting house sales and all who are involved in that. A second wave of infection will follow but by then the NHS should be in a better position to cope with the expected higher numbers of deaths by way of the new temporary hospitals and morgues ( Basingstoke ice rink be one) and the latest one being built just now at Southampton airport. I think then its going to be down to the survival of the fittest. | | | |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:23 - Apr 16 with 762 views | Sadoldgit |
Better to be broke than dead. The lockdown is a nuisance but at least it is saving lives. |  | | |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:28 - Apr 16 with 755 views | Saintsforeverj |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:23 - Apr 16 by Sadoldgit |
Better to be broke than dead. The lockdown is a nuisance but at least it is saving lives. |
Yes, but how many lives will be lost due to mental break downs, domestic violence, (God forbid, suicides), as a result of people losing their jobs, businesses and homes? Plus, isolation and loneliness of lockdown. The "lesser of two evils" question, is a genuine one. [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 15:33]
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:48 - Apr 16 with 714 views | Sadoldgit |
According to Nadine Dorries we will be in lockdown for at least 18 months, so no need to worry for a while. | | | |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:53 - Apr 16 with 710 views | kingslandstand1 |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:48 - Apr 16 by Sadoldgit |
According to Nadine Dorries we will be in lockdown for at least 18 months, so no need to worry for a while. |
As long as the Scousers don't get to lift a trophy for 2 years if that's the case then it's worth it |  | | |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 17:17 - Apr 16 with 681 views | DorsetIan |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 15:28 - Apr 16 by Saintsforeverj |
Yes, but how many lives will be lost due to mental break downs, domestic violence, (God forbid, suicides), as a result of people losing their jobs, businesses and homes? Plus, isolation and loneliness of lockdown. The "lesser of two evils" question, is a genuine one. [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 15:33]
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It's hard to put this sort of thing into context. Thankfully we aren't usually faced with these choices about risk - they are just there and we live with them or ignore them.
But 30,000 people were killed or seriously injured in road accidents in 2019 and we don't close the roads or even knock 10 miles per hour of the speed limit/double traffic patrols.
Might sound harsh but that's how lots of this works. I read the other day that eye injuries had increased recently because so many more people were doing DIY. Gotta wear those goggles folks. | |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 17:48 - Apr 16 with 655 views | Saintsforeverj |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 17:17 - Apr 16 by DorsetIan |
It's hard to put this sort of thing into context. Thankfully we aren't usually faced with these choices about risk - they are just there and we live with them or ignore them.
But 30,000 people were killed or seriously injured in road accidents in 2019 and we don't close the roads or even knock 10 miles per hour of the speed limit/double traffic patrols.
Might sound harsh but that's how lots of this works. I read the other day that eye injuries had increased recently because so many more people were doing DIY. Gotta wear those goggles folks. |
The thing is, we can only lock down for as long as feasible / reasonable. We can't lock up families and people forever or until a vaccine is found. When it's 85 degrees in the summer, people will likely get out and about come what may.
The government is doing the right thing. The response will enable the NHS to cope, less infections etc but in the end, after an amount of time, we have to be let out. People will be saved from the virus from a long lock down, but lose their job and their home so end up homeless. So there has to be a balance. Hopefully, in 3 weeks time it will be safe to release us all, but if not, I think they will have to think about doing it anyway. [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 17:52]
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 18:44 - Apr 16 with 614 views | Sadoldgit |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 17:17 - Apr 16 by DorsetIan |
It's hard to put this sort of thing into context. Thankfully we aren't usually faced with these choices about risk - they are just there and we live with them or ignore them.
But 30,000 people were killed or seriously injured in road accidents in 2019 and we don't close the roads or even knock 10 miles per hour of the speed limit/double traffic patrols.
Might sound harsh but that's how lots of this works. I read the other day that eye injuries had increased recently because so many more people were doing DIY. Gotta wear those goggles folks. |
The problem with this virus is that if we went about our lives normally, the death toll would go through the roof. | | | |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 19:13 - Apr 16 with 589 views | pjt50 |
A vaccine isn't the only way out of this. A lockdown until then isn't feasible anyway.
The big unknown is what proportion of the population has already had the virus (& whether this provides immunity). Although the results were shot down, researchers at Oxford reported 3 weeks ago that up to 50% of the UK population might have had it. If the true figure is anywhere near that, it's a totally different scenario to one where only 5% of the population have had it.
I don't recall any update on antibody testing in this week's briefings (but I might have missed it!) | |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 20:22 - Apr 16 with 528 views | DorsetIan |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 18:44 - Apr 16 by Sadoldgit |
The problem with this virus is that if we went about our lives normally, the death toll would go through the roof. |
I think that was right at the time the lockdown was called because of the number of people infected but as time goes on and the number falls, if the rate of infection stays low, it can be managed.
We can't return to 'normal' but a good month in, I think we are all a lot wiser about how to stay safe so we should be able to relax the restrictions without the whole thing exploding again. | |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 20:39 - Apr 16 with 509 views | Saintsforeverj |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 20:22 - Apr 16 by DorsetIan |
I think that was right at the time the lockdown was called because of the number of people infected but as time goes on and the number falls, if the rate of infection stays low, it can be managed.
We can't return to 'normal' but a good month in, I think we are all a lot wiser about how to stay safe so we should be able to relax the restrictions without the whole thing exploding again. |
Exactly, in 3 weeks time, we will all need to just manage this situation to keep infections low. Open restaurants but bookings only, partial opening of schools to enable students to socially distance, continue with social distancing at super markets etc.
Unfortunately though, I can't see how we can allow 30, 40, 50, 60, 000 plus people in football grounds for a long time. Not sure what can be done. Even if we start a new season in August, the virus could return by next January. A football ground with that amount of people will be a breeding ground as will any concert or any big gatherings. [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 20:42]
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 21:00 - Apr 16 with 488 views | DorsetIan |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 20:39 - Apr 16 by Saintsforeverj |
Exactly, in 3 weeks time, we will all need to just manage this situation to keep infections low. Open restaurants but bookings only, partial opening of schools to enable students to socially distance, continue with social distancing at super markets etc.
Unfortunately though, I can't see how we can allow 30, 40, 50, 60, 000 plus people in football grounds for a long time. Not sure what can be done. Even if we start a new season in August, the virus could return by next January. A football ground with that amount of people will be a breeding ground as will any concert or any big gatherings. [Post edited 16 Apr 2020 20:42]
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I suspect what will also happen is that we get used to living with a reasonably large number of corona deaths 'in the background'. Just like no one is looking at the flu death numbers in a normal winter, people will keep dying but it just won't be reported like it is now. | |
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| The Lesser of Two Evils on 22:07 - Apr 16 with 446 views | Sadoldgit |
If we had a better ability to test we could release the lockdown with more control. Testing is crucial. Contract tracing is crucial. Neither of these things we are doing to a standard that is required. | | | |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 10:20 - Apr 17 with 358 views | Bison |
| The Lesser of Two Evils on 22:07 - Apr 16 by Sadoldgit |
If we had a better ability to test we could release the lockdown with more control. Testing is crucial. Contract tracing is crucial. Neither of these things we are doing to a standard that is required. |
Are you retired mate ? |  |
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