| How do you blood youngsters? 11:17 - Sep 26 with 3383 views | Gloucs_R |
Put them into a League Cup game and we get beat - people moan
Put them into a Championship game and we lose - people moan
Leave them in the U23 - people moan
Blend youth and experience in the first team - Lumley and Eze with others making appearances from the bench and some say thats not enough.
Both Lumley and Eze had successful loans, which isnt the case for a lot of the others. Is it that they are simply good enough but the others arent?
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:20 - Sep 26 with 2639 views | daveB |
Play them alongside senior players so it means something rather than a token gesture in games you are trying to win. Dip them in and out of the team so fans blame the manager and want more of them rather than give them a long run and fans start to spot all the weaknesses in their game and write them off. Thats one way to do it anyway |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:26 - Sep 26 with 2626 views | Gloucs_R |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:20 - Sep 26 by daveB |
Play them alongside senior players so it means something rather than a token gesture in games you are trying to win. Dip them in and out of the team so fans blame the manager and want more of them rather than give them a long run and fans start to spot all the weaknesses in their game and write them off. Thats one way to do it anyway |
So we have had Eze, Lumley and Kakay all added to the side this season. 3 youngsters isnt that bad in one season is it?
Plus BOS and Smyth have been sheep dipped into games (the latter not so much) | |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:29 - Sep 26 with 2613 views | Metallica_Hoop |
National Service. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:30 - Sep 26 with 2608 views | Gloucs_R |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:29 - Sep 26 by Metallica_Hoop |
National Service. |
OK Mr Mannering  | |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:39 - Sep 26 with 2579 views | RANGERS4EVER |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:26 - Sep 26 by Gloucs_R |
So we have had Eze, Lumley and Kakay all added to the side this season. 3 youngsters isnt that bad in one season is it?
Plus BOS and Smyth have been sheep dipped into games (the latter not so much) |
It doesn't help that literally the whole of summer the Twitter page was spread with McClaren and Fernandes and basically everyone talking about the youth and how this season was finally going to see us head in the right direction and build with the youth, like many other teams have been doing, only for us to be five games in, we've completely scratched that, Hemed Wells Cameron and Rangel have all come into replace them, Manning has been sent out on loan, Smyth can't get on the bench, and Kakay has gone from starting to behind Alex Bloody Baptiste, and the only games they are getting they are put out to dry in the cup, only to be blamed for the loss by the so called manager who works so well with the youngsters |  |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:42 - Sep 26 with 2568 views | daveB |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:26 - Sep 26 by Gloucs_R |
So we have had Eze, Lumley and Kakay all added to the side this season. 3 youngsters isnt that bad in one season is it?
Plus BOS and Smyth have been sheep dipped into games (the latter not so much) |
All of those were blooded last season, we came into this season with the likes of Manning, Bright Samuel, Eze, Lumley, Kakay, Smyth, Chair, Oteh all with first team experience from last season.
Whats followed has been Kakay being replaced by a 35 year old, Manning loaned out whilst we struggle in central midfield. Bright Samuel plays half a game then disappears for weeks, Smyth is nowhere to be seen apart from token games in the cup same as Oteh and Chair. I'm not saying they should all play every week but we've gone from building team around these young players to replacing them all, the average age of the side has shot up very quickly. | | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:44 - Sep 26 with 2560 views | Gloucs_R |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:39 - Sep 26 by RANGERS4EVER |
It doesn't help that literally the whole of summer the Twitter page was spread with McClaren and Fernandes and basically everyone talking about the youth and how this season was finally going to see us head in the right direction and build with the youth, like many other teams have been doing, only for us to be five games in, we've completely scratched that, Hemed Wells Cameron and Rangel have all come into replace them, Manning has been sent out on loan, Smyth can't get on the bench, and Kakay has gone from starting to behind Alex Bloody Baptiste, and the only games they are getting they are put out to dry in the cup, only to be blamed for the loss by the so called manager who works so well with the youngsters |
OK, I was trying to get away from the Mclaren bashing. Although I agree that I thought (hoped) he was coming in to develop and coach the younger players. But havent seen that so far. | |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:59 - Sep 26 with 2514 views | RANGERS4EVER |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:44 - Sep 26 by Gloucs_R |
OK, I was trying to get away from the Mclaren bashing. Although I agree that I thought (hoped) he was coming in to develop and coach the younger players. But havent seen that so far. |
Sorry, not trying to get too angry, still a bit peed off by yesterday. I understand the decision to get Wells and Hemed in, and also experience, just think we have gone about it the complete wrong way. If we were to do this, it should have been known before the season started. Now we put all the trust and pressure on the kids before hand, and their confidence must be next to nothing now, as it's like weve seen them then just given up on them. I was utterly baffled as to why Kakay didn't play on Saturday, and thought what a blow to confidence it must be to them. Birmingham at home last season was such a fun watch with the youngsters, I haven't really seen or had any of that fun yet this season | |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:59 - Sep 26 with 2510 views | simmo |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:39 - Sep 26 by RANGERS4EVER |
It doesn't help that literally the whole of summer the Twitter page was spread with McClaren and Fernandes and basically everyone talking about the youth and how this season was finally going to see us head in the right direction and build with the youth, like many other teams have been doing, only for us to be five games in, we've completely scratched that, Hemed Wells Cameron and Rangel have all come into replace them, Manning has been sent out on loan, Smyth can't get on the bench, and Kakay has gone from starting to behind Alex Bloody Baptiste, and the only games they are getting they are put out to dry in the cup, only to be blamed for the loss by the so called manager who works so well with the youngsters |
Which is spot on. Add to that when the young players do well and take their fleeting opportunities, like BOS did in the earlier rounds of the cup, they are then not rewarded with more opportunities.
This mantra of youth, lots of talent to shine up and sell on has quickly been replaced with experienced / old players that are 'men'. Even our more senior players can't get a game if they're not close to 6ft. |  |
| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:10 - Sep 26 with 2476 views | Phildo |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:59 - Sep 26 by simmo |
Which is spot on. Add to that when the young players do well and take their fleeting opportunities, like BOS did in the earlier rounds of the cup, they are then not rewarded with more opportunities.
This mantra of youth, lots of talent to shine up and sell on has quickly been replaced with experienced / old players that are 'men'. Even our more senior players can't get a game if they're not close to 6ft. |
The height thing is very noticeable isnt it |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:12 - Sep 26 with 2460 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
How do you blood youngsters?
I thought that was the reason for getting Steveeee |  |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:14 - Sep 26 with 2447 views | stevec |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:59 - Sep 26 by simmo |
Which is spot on. Add to that when the young players do well and take their fleeting opportunities, like BOS did in the earlier rounds of the cup, they are then not rewarded with more opportunities.
This mantra of youth, lots of talent to shine up and sell on has quickly been replaced with experienced / old players that are 'men'. Even our more senior players can't get a game if they're not close to 6ft. |
It's a tough old league.
We spent the last 25 minutes v Sheffield United literally trying to get the ball back. The youngsters were bouncing off them.
Football at Championship level is mostly about physical domination. It's why Warnock teams do well, why Derry, Hill, Gorks, Orr and Helguson spent the first 60 minutes of every game wearing the opposition down physically. Then your skill players kick in.
Look around at most of the youngsters in this side, by and large decent footballers but all lack the height and physicality needed at this level. |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:15 - Sep 26 with 2444 views | Gloucs_R |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:59 - Sep 26 by simmo |
Which is spot on. Add to that when the young players do well and take their fleeting opportunities, like BOS did in the earlier rounds of the cup, they are then not rewarded with more opportunities.
This mantra of youth, lots of talent to shine up and sell on has quickly been replaced with experienced / old players that are 'men'. Even our more senior players can't get a game if they're not close to 6ft. |
But Simmo, who would you drop for BOS?
For me, it goes back to McLaren knowing his first 11 for a 433 and a 4231. Which could be different starting 11s to be fair.
He's had enough games now to know this now IMO. He should be aware of everyones strengths and weaknesses.
My starting line up would be (Lynch has come on leaps and bounds over past few games)
4231
Lumley
Rangel / BFG / Lynch / Bidwell
Mass / Cameron
Wells / Eze / BOS
Hemed
433
Lumley
Rangel / BFG / Lynch / Bidwell
Pav / Mass / Freeman
Wells / Hemed / Eze
Although the 433 is very lightweight [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 12:16]
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:42 - Sep 26 with 2400 views | simmo |
Personally? I'd drop Hemed. I would play the team that started against Millwall with BOS and Freeman on the wings and Eze at 10. If we need more of a CF type we can bring on Hemed but we've been waiting for an age for a striker that can play 1 up top, now we have 2 and we're playing both at once.
----------------Lumley-----------------
Rangel--Leistner---Lynch---Bidwell
----------Luongo--Scowen----------
Freeman---------Eze-----------BOS
-------------------Wells----------------
Seperate to that though, someone like BOS deserves more than the cameo he had against Norwich. Bring him on for 20-30mins at a time. For tired defences he would be a nightmare. If we're losing he could be the direct threat we need, if we're ahead he's perfect for the outball on the counter or to carry the ball away from our goal and relieve pressure. Either way if a player does well in a game, he deserves more appearances, if he keeps effecting games, he deserves starts.
[Post edited 26 Sep 2018 12:47]
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| ask Beavis I get nothing Butthead |
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:44 - Sep 26 with 2397 views | loneranger1 |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:14 - Sep 26 by stevec |
It's a tough old league.
We spent the last 25 minutes v Sheffield United literally trying to get the ball back. The youngsters were bouncing off them.
Football at Championship level is mostly about physical domination. It's why Warnock teams do well, why Derry, Hill, Gorks, Orr and Helguson spent the first 60 minutes of every game wearing the opposition down physically. Then your skill players kick in.
Look around at most of the youngsters in this side, by and large decent footballers but all lack the height and physicality needed at this level. |
Agree it's a tough old league but I think there's room for a blend.
Eze has certainly showed the lack of height and physicality doesn't stop you making a difference in games at this level, likewise Smyth last year, Ryan Manning leaving Terry on his arse to score a header at Villa Park... Despite being a great header, Furlong isn't the tallest, although I know he's bulked up a bit since he first came through.
BOS and Kakay simply haven't been given enough of a chance in a blended 11 of youth/experience to prove they are up to this level. My feeling is that BOS is and Kakay may not be, but I think it's way too early for us to rule either of them out - or for Steve to say 'well, players had their chance but it was a reality check for some of them' when clearly, we weren't set up right last night, something odd was going on (indiscipinle) and several senior players didn't help the young uns by being so far off the pace |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:17 - Sep 26 with 2326 views | spencer |
You need a blend of experience and youth, Define Young ?
Lumley 23 Bidwell 25 Eze 20 Freeman 26 Luongo 26 Scowen 25
Baptise 32 Wells 28 Hemed 31 Rangel 35 BFG 28
That was the line up V Norwich
Manning 22 BOS 20 Smyth 21 Kakay 21
These are the main 4 I suppose we are talking about...These 4 are all under 22 and not really getting a shoe in.
Add to that Cameron is 33...
That makes the average starting age on Saturday was 27, which in football terms ...should read experienced.
When McClaren joined, I think we were all told that "youth" would be given a chance. I assume he looked at our youth and decided it wasn't good enough.
Last nights , youth/inexperienced team, were beaten by a league 1 side, so...were we right to send them out to see how good they were, or should be have sent out our experienced team ?
Personally - I do not think McClaren is good enough. Last night and Norwich, were shades or how Ollie used to manage, and he got slated. |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:39 - Sep 26 with 2245 views | Northernr |
1 - They have to be good enough (Furlong, Manning, Eze) or potentially good enough (Samuel, Smyth, Chair). This was a problem for years, the kids we were producing weren't anywhere near standard - Harriman and Doughty about the best of them and they've basically topped out at League One level.
2 - In the early years they need to be loaned out intelligently (Lumley, Eze, Furlong) rather than wasted with a succession of loans to to low-a-level, or the same level over and over again (Doughty).
3 - There needs to be a really clear pathway to the first team. They need to believe it's a genuine possibility for them, otherwise you just get kids kicking around playing kids football getting rich, driving flahs cars, thinking they've made it, no hunger to do any better because they know even if they do they won't be getting in. We'd gone away from that, but the way McClaren has treated Samuel this season (no game time despite tearing it up against Bristol) and Manning (loaned out to Rotherham while Luongo, Cousins and Scowen get picked despite being in poor form) sends a dreadful message and undoes a lot of that.
4 - Bite the bullet and pick them for a length of time. Sling them in for five or six games and see how they do. Holloway did this well last season, Eze and Smyth really kicked on, Oteh didn't, so the first two stayed in and Oteh came out. Do not just sling them in altogether, all at once, once a month, in a team that's never played together before full of players that haven't kicked a ball for a month in a game you've made it clear you don't care about and expect them all to perform. And especially don't do that and then, if they do perform, ditch them again for the following games anyway. |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:55 - Sep 26 with 2215 views | traininvain |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 12:14 - Sep 26 by stevec |
It's a tough old league.
We spent the last 25 minutes v Sheffield United literally trying to get the ball back. The youngsters were bouncing off them.
Football at Championship level is mostly about physical domination. It's why Warnock teams do well, why Derry, Hill, Gorks, Orr and Helguson spent the first 60 minutes of every game wearing the opposition down physically. Then your skill players kick in.
Look around at most of the youngsters in this side, by and large decent footballers but all lack the height and physicality needed at this level. |
Agreed. And if you look at the team from this time last year, we're actually seeing more of the youngsters with Eze and Lumley now established in the first team.
This idea that we can play four or five youngsters and still compete in the Championship was quickly dashed at the start of the season when we lost our first four games whilst adopting this approach.
We're not exactly blessed with the class of '92 and it's not difficult to see why McClaren abandoned picking more than a couple of youngsters per game as he would've lost his job pretty quickly!
Holloway blooded youngsters at the end of last season once we were safe which is a lot easier than putting your job / career on the line by picking them from the start of the season which incidentally, Holloway didn't do for obvious reasons. [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 13:55]
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:58 - Sep 26 with 2201 views | Northernr |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:55 - Sep 26 by traininvain |
Agreed. And if you look at the team from this time last year, we're actually seeing more of the youngsters with Eze and Lumley now established in the first team.
This idea that we can play four or five youngsters and still compete in the Championship was quickly dashed at the start of the season when we lost our first four games whilst adopting this approach.
We're not exactly blessed with the class of '92 and it's not difficult to see why McClaren abandoned picking more than a couple of youngsters per game as he would've lost his job pretty quickly!
Holloway blooded youngsters at the end of last season once we were safe which is a lot easier than putting your job / career on the line by picking them from the start of the season which incidentally, Holloway didn't do for obvious reasons. [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 13:55]
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The problem is we can barely afford now, and will not be able to afford at all once the parachute payments end this time next year, the quality of senior player to compete. That was the whole point of bringing these youngsters through. | | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 14:30 - Sep 26 with 2124 views | timcocking |
You bring them off the bench as a sub a couple of times and see how they cope. If they do a decent job, you wait until a player is unavailable or a change is needed and start them. Then, if they do a good enough job, you keep them in. And preferably, of course, you're playing them in the same position, in the same formation, with the same personnel.
What you don't do; throw a boatload of random young players together and expect anything other than a pub team performance. Or play them for four games, then nothing for a year and a half. Or wait until they score every game, then drop them for somebody worse but older. Or play them in a different formation, different position next to different personnel every game. Or make a foreigner, who has yet to play in your country, let alone your team, captain. |  | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 14:45 - Sep 26 with 2095 views | qprd |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:55 - Sep 26 by traininvain |
Agreed. And if you look at the team from this time last year, we're actually seeing more of the youngsters with Eze and Lumley now established in the first team.
This idea that we can play four or five youngsters and still compete in the Championship was quickly dashed at the start of the season when we lost our first four games whilst adopting this approach.
We're not exactly blessed with the class of '92 and it's not difficult to see why McClaren abandoned picking more than a couple of youngsters per game as he would've lost his job pretty quickly!
Holloway blooded youngsters at the end of last season once we were safe which is a lot easier than putting your job / career on the line by picking them from the start of the season which incidentally, Holloway didn't do for obvious reasons. [Post edited 26 Sep 2018 13:55]
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We haven't developed youth in eternities, so we forget the pain you need to endure in the short-term with youth players
No one is arguing that Paul Smyth is better today Wzolek, or Kakay is better than Rangel. However, these players can only improve with game time in the first team.
In hindsight, we should have loaned out Smyth, Chair, etc to guarantee them playing time. Perhaps we didn't because Mclaren promised the kids would feature more this season. There will always be suitors for players of their caliber with a few Championship appearances to their name. However, our front office staff is limited in number, and their attention was directed during the loan window towards brining in loanees rather than finding a short-term home for the likes of Chair, Oteh, etc.
In the long run, if we want to limit our wages, we need to play younger academy players who we can sell on for profit.
Its ultimately a short-term sacrifice for a long-term gain. We can play academy players now and lose some points in the short-run to improve our team/sustainability in the long run. Or we can shove the young players away, play a bunch of loanees and finish 15th rather than 18th. As a fan base, we need to develop the patience with the kids | | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 15:21 - Sep 26 with 2069 views | traininvain |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 13:58 - Sep 26 by Northernr |
The problem is we can barely afford now, and will not be able to afford at all once the parachute payments end this time next year, the quality of senior player to compete. That was the whole point of bringing these youngsters through. |
So we’re better off loaning the likes of Manning, Smyth to clubs where they can sink or swim without risking our Championship status. If they do well then we get them back as potential starters for next season.
Whatever way you look at it, McClaren would’ve been mental to persevere with starting four or five youngsters after WBA away / Bristol City at home. He wouldn’t have made it to September.
We’re now adopting a less radical youth strategy but still seeing two or three youngsters start with others getting minutes off the bench.
It’s an improvement on this time last season (look at our starting 11 for games in September 2017) and I expect we’ll see more youngsters in the first team if we can secure our safety for next season ASAP.
We’ve had a couple of poor results but let’s not forget that we were five games unbeaten going into the Norwich game a few days ago. | | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 00:25 - Sep 27 with 1850 views | timcocking |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 15:21 - Sep 26 by traininvain |
So we’re better off loaning the likes of Manning, Smyth to clubs where they can sink or swim without risking our Championship status. If they do well then we get them back as potential starters for next season.
Whatever way you look at it, McClaren would’ve been mental to persevere with starting four or five youngsters after WBA away / Bristol City at home. He wouldn’t have made it to September.
We’re now adopting a less radical youth strategy but still seeing two or three youngsters start with others getting minutes off the bench.
It’s an improvement on this time last season (look at our starting 11 for games in September 2017) and I expect we’ll see more youngsters in the first team if we can secure our safety for next season ASAP.
We’ve had a couple of poor results but let’s not forget that we were five games unbeaten going into the Norwich game a few days ago. |
Granted, after the 7-1 something had to change immediately.
Why did we lose 7-1, though? Nedum swapped for Captain Tony Leistner, Robbo swapped for Lynch, Smithies swapped for Ingram. Three major downgrades. WTF were they thinking (anybody says saving money, i'll fcuking swing for them them)?
What did they do then? Get rid of Smyth, Kakay, Manning. The young players we brought McClaren in to work with. Two months in, most of our players will hate him already. If we stay up, we're staying up with 30 year old loanees. All McClaren has done is fcuk up our young players so far.
It would appear have quite literally taken one step forward then gone into full reverse and now have management who couldn't care less about helping QPR. Just don't bother entering the fcuking cup if we're going to lose on purpose.
Depressing. I'm never one for blaming the management, but Christ this is depressing, there have really been a lot of mistakes in recent times.
We'd do better with me in charge. I mean it. Or Clive. | | | |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 01:11 - Sep 27 with 1823 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
This may be over simplistic...
I would be aiming for 11 senior pros and 11 young understudies that jump in when they are injured, suspended, or out of form, until eventually they push the senior pros out and they themselves have a understudy.
I can get over bad results, but vandalism of a system that holds the key to our survival is unforgivable. [Post edited 27 Sep 2018 1:42]
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| How do you blood youngsters? on 03:21 - Sep 27 with 1774 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| How do you blood youngsters? on 11:30 - Sep 26 by Gloucs_R |
OK Mr Mannering |
Alas, we loaned him to Rotherham! |  |
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