| one for the older fans 13:57 - Apr 16 with 3743 views | shandyjack |
having been born in 1985 and missing the rise and fall in the 80's, can anyone see any similarities between then and now in terms of the squad and state of the club etc. Obviously with the ground and traing base etc we are better off now but did we drop like a stone last time due to poor squad, lack of investment and can we learn from those mistakes now |  |
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| one for the older fans on 14:03 - Apr 16 with 2652 views | Cooperman |
Chalk and cheese. |  |
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| one for the older fans on 14:13 - Apr 16 with 2631 views | AnotherJohn |
I don't think the parallels are very close. I suppose the main constant is that we are/were a small club competing with rivals whose resources are/were much greater. However, it seemed to me that the odds were stacked against us more in the early 1980s, mainly because TV revenues were a much smaller part of the whole and our attendances weren't great. We had a good but thin squad, and really laid out what resources we did have in the first season in the First Division. In the close season before our relegation our only real signing was Dean Saunders who graduated from the youth team to the first team squad and got full-time professional terms. Perhaps because we had done well in that first season in the top tier the reasoning was that we didn't need to do much more. But as injuries affected us, notably to Colin Irwin our main central defender, we had nothing left in reserve. As the slide started there were rumours of internal wrangling (see Curt's memoirs), but I think it was the lack of resources that really killed us. Even then we put up more of a fight than we are doing at present. Once we were down we were caught in a vicious circle of needing to unload high-wage players and loss of income. None of us really thought we would sink so far so quickly - it was very painful.
At least that is how I remember things, but it is a long time ago and the memory fades, [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 14:18]
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| one for the older fans on 14:21 - Apr 16 with 2606 views | giantstoneater |
| one for the older fans on 14:13 - Apr 16 by AnotherJohn |
I don't think the parallels are very close. I suppose the main constant is that we are/were a small club competing with rivals whose resources are/were much greater. However, it seemed to me that the odds were stacked against us more in the early 1980s, mainly because TV revenues were a much smaller part of the whole and our attendances weren't great. We had a good but thin squad, and really laid out what resources we did have in the first season in the First Division. In the close season before our relegation our only real signing was Dean Saunders who graduated from the youth team to the first team squad and got full-time professional terms. Perhaps because we had done well in that first season in the top tier the reasoning was that we didn't need to do much more. But as injuries affected us, notably to Colin Irwin our main central defender, we had nothing left in reserve. As the slide started there were rumours of internal wrangling (see Curt's memoirs), but I think it was the lack of resources that really killed us. Even then we put up more of a fight than we are doing at present. Once we were down we were caught in a vicious circle of needing to unload high-wage players and loss of income. None of us really thought we would sink so far so quickly - it was very painful.
At least that is how I remember things, but it is a long time ago and the memory fades, [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 14:18]
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I think that even though we have all the training facilities.in place I just don't see us having the squad to build on in the championship Newcastle kept all their big players and had a manager to build on that, we have a poor squad and an ultra cautious manager to go with it and we will lose our stars I feel like an old hand on the bridge of the Titanic when the Captain aka the new board and HJ sight the iceberg and write it off as a minor problem - time to batten down the hatches!! |  | | |
| one for the older fans on 15:24 - Apr 16 with 2536 views | STID2017 |
No comparison.
Those of us who saw mostly lows over the past fifty years appreciate the good times.
Those who see the threat of relegation to the Championship as the end of the world and criticise the standard of the football we have seen over the past two years never had to suffer the dire rubbish we played for many years pre Harry Griffiths and post Toshack.
There were some exceptions but standing on a cold North Bank with 2000 other hardy souls was the norm.
So in answer to your question - no, no comparison. |  |
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| one for the older fans on 16:03 - Apr 16 with 2468 views | giantstoneater |
| one for the older fans on 15:24 - Apr 16 by STID2017 |
No comparison.
Those of us who saw mostly lows over the past fifty years appreciate the good times.
Those who see the threat of relegation to the Championship as the end of the world and criticise the standard of the football we have seen over the past two years never had to suffer the dire rubbish we played for many years pre Harry Griffiths and post Toshack.
There were some exceptions but standing on a cold North Bank with 2000 other hardy souls was the norm.
So in answer to your question - no, no comparison. |
Agree with most of what you say but the unknown factor is what the new board will bring to the table and how they want to play things but lets face it they have not shown much to date and there are plenty of examples of what could happen. | | | |
| one for the older fans on 16:37 - Apr 16 with 2417 views | AnotherJohn |
| one for the older fans on 15:24 - Apr 16 by STID2017 |
No comparison.
Those of us who saw mostly lows over the past fifty years appreciate the good times.
Those who see the threat of relegation to the Championship as the end of the world and criticise the standard of the football we have seen over the past two years never had to suffer the dire rubbish we played for many years pre Harry Griffiths and post Toshack.
There were some exceptions but standing on a cold North Bank with 2000 other hardy souls was the norm.
So in answer to your question - no, no comparison. |
But the question is really about why we got relegated in 1983 and how that compares to the present situation. What do you remember? I'd be interested in other people's recollection | | | |
| one for the older fans on 17:06 - Apr 16 with 2364 views | Al_Bundy |
We invested in the ground infrastructure at the Vetch more than the playing squad back in the day. We had no TV revenue to speak off and attendances was the main income stream. We trained in a field and our commercial department was in a living room of a terraced house. The club struggled massively after relegations and we could bot give the club away. The few assets we had was always eyed up as club to strip without consequences and we had a commercial director who also had other motives than the best for the club. As long as we are prudent with the cut in income and invest wisely what transfer kitty we have we can stabilise in the Championship and regroup. A double relegation would put in Portsmouth/Cov/Bolton territory which then may have parallels with the earlier era. | | | |
| one for the older fans on 17:26 - Apr 16 with 2327 views | Starsky |
One of the biggest financial issues that derailed us was the change in shared gate receipts to the home side keeping them.
Literally as we hit the big time this kicked in and it wrecked us financially.
Their were big attendances in those days, pre Taylor report.
It's been forgotten but it was what did for us. |  |
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| one for the older fans on 18:55 - Apr 16 with 2261 views | Witneyjack |
| one for the older fans on 16:37 - Apr 16 by AnotherJohn |
But the question is really about why we got relegated in 1983 and how that compares to the present situation. What do you remember? I'd be interested in other people's recollection |
Easy, we spent far beyond our means. |  | | |
| one for the older fans on 19:01 - Apr 16 with 2245 views | 3swan |
| one for the older fans on 18:55 - Apr 16 by Witneyjack |
Easy, we spent far beyond our means. |
From memory didn't the transfer market get a hit. (All of football)
We just couldn't sell any player at what was once the going rate | | | |
| one for the older fans on 19:03 - Apr 16 with 2240 views | swancity |
| one for the older fans on 14:03 - Apr 16 by Cooperman |
Chalk and cheese. |
Not really. The Premier League is on a different planet to the old division one financially and in terms of global interest but I can see lots of the same old problems surfacing. | |
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| one for the older fans on 19:08 - Apr 16 with 2220 views | Flashberryjack |
| one for the older fans on 18:55 - Apr 16 by Witneyjack |
Easy, we spent far beyond our means. |
Spent to whom ? |  |
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| one for the older fans on 19:23 - Apr 16 with 2191 views | Witneyjack |
| one for the older fans on 19:08 - Apr 16 by Flashberryjack |
Spent to whom ? |
Paying fees and wages we couldn't afford. E.g. £350000 for Colin Irwin who broke his leg against Villa and it was the beginning of the end of his career. | | | |
| one for the older fans on 21:04 - Apr 16 with 2064 views | AnotherJohn |
| one for the older fans on 18:55 - Apr 16 by Witneyjack |
Easy, we spent far beyond our means. |
It isn't that simple! As I pointed out, we made no major signings in the summer before we got relegated. Irwin was our record signing the season before, but in the wider scale of things £340K for a Liverpool fringe player was not exceptional. We did have to pay higher wages when we were promoted to the top league and we did spend money on developing the new stand, which perhaps was a mistake. On the wages though, I don't think we spent more than most of the smaller first division teams. The problem was more our lack of income/wealthy backers than a case of excessive spending.
N.B. Irwin was crocked by a knee injury against Villa in the relegation season, and although he attempted a come-back that effectively finished his career, [Post edited 16 Apr 2017 21:29]
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| one for the older fans on 09:54 - Apr 17 with 1893 views | KingstonJack |
My recollection of the glorious rise was how good Tosh and his ald boys were.
I felt the first season in the 1st Div they were in the top 6, but should have concentrated more on blooding younger players. When Tosh stopped and the old boys folded like a stack of cards the youngsters were put in for thrashings ( like poor Chris Saunder). | | | |
| one for the older fans on 10:11 - Apr 17 with 1869 views | STID2017 |
| one for the older fans on 16:37 - Apr 16 by AnotherJohn |
But the question is really about why we got relegated in 1983 and how that compares to the present situation. What do you remember? I'd be interested in other people's recollection |
I firmly believe that having watched the club collapse after relegation from the old First Division, Jenkins and the board were determined not repeat the mistakes of the Swans board of the '80s.
Sadly the ££££££ signs of the past couple of years have wiped their memories clean.
The club had very little assets back then and no infrastructure to speak of.
At least today we have the backbone of a top level club - hopefully the new owners will show the desire to keep us at the top table, not feeding of the crumbs in the lower reaches of the leagues. | |
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| one for the older fans on 10:24 - Apr 17 with 1852 views | Dewi1jack |
| one for the older fans on 15:24 - Apr 16 by STID2017 |
No comparison.
Those of us who saw mostly lows over the past fifty years appreciate the good times.
Those who see the threat of relegation to the Championship as the end of the world and criticise the standard of the football we have seen over the past two years never had to suffer the dire rubbish we played for many years pre Harry Griffiths and post Toshack.
There were some exceptions but standing on a cold North Bank with 2000 other hardy souls was the norm.
So in answer to your question - no, no comparison. |
Agree with this.
But for me, this feels more gutting.
We have seen some of the best players ever to pull on a Swans shirt in recent years (since '78 for me anyway.)
Many, many beautiful days from Reading at Wemberleee, the Cup, beating all the top 6/7 so called big clubs (except for Spurs) home and away, Europa league and people have chucked it all away.
The same people who helped save the club from a terrible owner have screwed it in spades.
We could have had 'mid- table' security with the occasional Cup run, maybe being in a position to go and win the FA Cup, build the club and squads for all future generations to enjoy and people have chucked it all away through greed.
True fans would have found a group to buy the club and ensure the success story continued- including the Supporters Trust that helped save the club to begin with.
Bonus.
At least this time we're not playing away in the High Court.
Yet!
So, no comparison |  |
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| one for the older fans on 11:04 - Apr 17 with 1817 views | dameedna |
Far better chance this time round.
6 years up
Experienced squad.
Parachute.
Previous
Style wise we lost it - the same as since monk took over.
We were judged too good to go down
this time we are judged good candidates for the drop.
Previous we spunked money on the east stand too early and fans loans were dishonoured.
The football was scintillating and a cut above much more solid and looked like we would win the league.
Local players and youth had more quality than now.
Without doubt we could slide back down but we are in a far better position now than then. |  | | |
| one for the older fans on 17:45 - Apr 17 with 1656 views | giantstoneater |
Parachute payments are only good if they are invested into the squad and are used to keep your best players I can't see us doing this we will lose our big players. Have any figures been issued to show what outlay, and I don't include the purchasing of shares from the old board, that the new board have spent. If you look at the Championship it is littered with teams that have been in the Prem and there's even a sprinkling of ex Prem teams in the 1st and 2nd divisions are they in a better state than when they were up at the top table? | | | |
| one for the older fans on 18:03 - Apr 17 with 1635 views | Loyal |
| one for the older fans on 19:23 - Apr 16 by Witneyjack |
Paying fees and wages we couldn't afford. E.g. £350000 for Colin Irwin who broke his leg against Villa and it was the beginning of the end of his career. |
Did I read that Liverpool wiped the fee ? |  |
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| one for the older fans on 18:54 - Apr 17 with 1597 views | Swanseajill |
| one for the older fans on 18:03 - Apr 17 by Loyal |
Did I read that Liverpool wiped the fee ? |
We owed Liverpool as our team was propped up wth ex Liverpool players when Tosh achieved 1st Division status. And those older heads helped our young Welsh squad to achieve our best two seasons .
When we went into receivership, Liverpool wiped out the debt that we owed them.
The other creditors may as well have done the same, as they only recieved a small percentage of what they were owed. [Post edited 17 Apr 2017 19:37]
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| one for the older fans on 19:33 - Apr 17 with 1551 views | morningstar |
| one for the older fans on 19:23 - Apr 16 by Witneyjack |
Paying fees and wages we couldn't afford. E.g. £350000 for Colin Irwin who broke his leg against Villa and it was the beginning of the end of his career. |
There were of course other circumstances, mainly attendances. I remember Malcolm Struel stating we would need gates of 18000+ to break even in the top flight which included investment in the side, and whilst we had some great crowds in our first year, not once were the gates locked. Some of the attendance figures were shocking, a prime example is us being top of the League and playing Aston Villa who were the Champions at the time and went on to win the European Cup that year. We won the game 2-1 in front of 15000!
Nevertheless, we finished 6th that season, but the writing was on the wall. We were never going to match it the following season, and with no money to invest in an ageing squad we were doomed. I think we averaged around 12000 that second year. |  |
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| one for the older fans on 19:43 - Apr 17 with 1529 views | AnotherJohn |
| one for the older fans on 18:03 - Apr 17 by Loyal |
Did I read that Liverpool wiped the fee ? |
I've read that we hadn't paid most of irwin's transfer fee by the time we went bust in 1984, but I don't know what Liverpool got in the end. I had a skim through Curtis' book and another factor in the relegation season was that we were hit with a transfer embargo because we had not been making payments on the Irwin and Kennedy signings, Our attendances declined alarmingly to about 11,000 in the league and only 5000 for our record high scoring game against Sliema Wanderers. We were 2 million in debt mid-season.
Most of Curt's account of that season appears in the free sample from his book:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K_h7Yi9erkkC&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125&dq=colin+irw | | | |
| one for the older fans on 19:46 - Apr 17 with 1514 views | Loyal |
| one for the older fans on 18:54 - Apr 17 by Swanseajill |
We owed Liverpool as our team was propped up wth ex Liverpool players when Tosh achieved 1st Division status. And those older heads helped our young Welsh squad to achieve our best two seasons .
When we went into receivership, Liverpool wiped out the debt that we owed them.
The other creditors may as well have done the same, as they only recieved a small percentage of what they were owed. [Post edited 17 Apr 2017 19:37]
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| one for the older fans on 19:46 - Apr 17 with 1514 views | Swanseajill |
| one for the older fans on 19:33 - Apr 17 by morningstar |
There were of course other circumstances, mainly attendances. I remember Malcolm Struel stating we would need gates of 18000+ to break even in the top flight which included investment in the side, and whilst we had some great crowds in our first year, not once were the gates locked. Some of the attendance figures were shocking, a prime example is us being top of the League and playing Aston Villa who were the Champions at the time and went on to win the European Cup that year. We won the game 2-1 in front of 15000!
Nevertheless, we finished 6th that season, but the writing was on the wall. We were never going to match it the following season, and with no money to invest in an ageing squad we were doomed. I think we averaged around 12000 that second year. |
I was in the YMCA that day when Struel announced what our gates needed to be ( I thought it was higher than 18000) Although I'm older than you Garry, and my marbles are getting a bit chipped nowadays.🙄
I did ask him the question of...."Don't you think that is too high a crowd, considering the current gates we were getting)
That what we need to survive, he said. The new stand had wiped us out. | | | |
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