| Why we played so much better yesterday… 08:30 - Nov 23 with 2677 views | davidargyll |
For all who accused the players of downing tools under WS, this shows that it was much more the manager who can affect things; TE could see how to get them playing in a couple of weeks, WS couldn’t in several months…
(From Saints Marching…)
Eckert made these 3 subtle tweaks at Charlton
Southampton's Under-21 captain, Cameron Bragg, was brought into the side for his full debut. This allowed Eckert to play with a double pivot but gave Caspar Jander greater licence to get forward. The first benefit of Bragg's inclusion was to provide extra protection for the back three and to link play with the wide midfielders.
The second benefit of the youngster's inclusion was to provide insurance for Jander, who likes to get forward into the opposition box. Jander's second goal in as many games was further vindication of Eckert's decision to include Bragg.
Eckert's second tweak was to have Adam Armstrong dropping deeper to receive the ball in his own half rather than always running in behind.
As a result, Armstrong was more involved in the build up play and able to pick out the runs of players making forward runs from deep.
Both of Armstrong's assists were beautifully threaded balls, first for Jander to slot home Saints' third and then for Finn Azaz to round the keeper before making it 4-0.
Eckert's final tweak was to accelerate the speed of attacking transitions. Whether it was Scienza driving with the ball through the middle, or Tom Fellows making ground down the right, Southampton's attacking transitions were both lightning quick and extremely direct [Post edited 23 Nov 10:24]
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| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 08:48 - Nov 23 with 2592 views | saintwizzler |
Ah…
The old double pivot. |  |
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| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 09:31 - Nov 23 with 2502 views | A1079 |
I think he has adopted the blitzkrieg approach. Hit early, hit quickly and create some blue sky between you and the opposition. To some extent Koeman adopted the same approach. Under Koeman we generally scored our goals in the first half but tended to have quieter second halves when the game was effectively won. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 09:41 - Nov 23 with 2467 views | grumpy |
One things for sure its more entertaining to watch. |  | | |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 09:53 - Nov 23 with 2440 views | Ifonly |
What you say is mainly true but is far from the whole story (and Bragg didn't really do anything different to what Downes often does). TE did improve things but what he did won't work in many of our games.
Charlton pressed pretty badly and left themselves open to the counter. There was masses of space for AA to operate in, he often didn't have a defender within 10 yards. That's when he thrives, but he won't get that often. In the 2nd half Charlton did a better job of cutting off our passing options. Other sides will watch the video and learn.
The true test for TE is when we have to face a team that sits deep and packs the defence. Then AA won't have space and we'll face the problem again of not having a true centre forward that can win a physical battle. Can he come up with a plan for those games?
TE has done well so far and will very likely get the job, but don't read too much into a few games, either good or bad. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 10:08 - Nov 23 with 2383 views | SaintPaulVW |
Read a quite interesting post yesterday that TE is just slightly correcting the team set up that WS had planned. Using fast wingbacks in Fellows and Manning and after losing Stewart to injury using Armstrong as almost a false 9, dropping deep as required. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 10:38 - Nov 23 with 2246 views | davidargyll |
Ifony, if I I may, to contradict two things which you were maintaining:
1. Charlton had the equal best defence in the league prior to our battering yesterday, ie they habitually packed their defence but we - easily! - found ways through; and
2. Playing AA deeper was clearly planned BEFORE the game, knowing Charlton are a defensively-minded team, so why should it not work against others and upset them too?
Personally I have not been so positive for ages…! | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 10:57 - Nov 23 with 2159 views | Tonyfromdk |
I like Tom Felllows, he reminds me of Steve Coppell or Peter Barnes.
I love the way he’s so direct.
A good old fashioned winger. You don’t see that much in today’s football. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 11:10 - Nov 23 with 2108 views | Ifonly |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 10:38 - Nov 23 by davidargyll |
Ifony, if I I may, to contradict two things which you were maintaining:
1. Charlton had the equal best defence in the league prior to our battering yesterday, ie they habitually packed their defence but we - easily! - found ways through; and
2. Playing AA deeper was clearly planned BEFORE the game, knowing Charlton are a defensively-minded team, so why should it not work against others and upset them too?
Personally I have not been so positive for ages…! |
David, I'm glad you're positive, I am too. But what I was saying is that Charlton pressed us high up the pitch, but did it badly and we were able to pass through them (also because we did it very well). Yesterday at least, they didn't pack their defence, they pressed high up. I've no idea what they do normally, but yesterday they didn't pack their defence. That meant we could reach the space that Charlton had left behind when they were pressing (and as you rightly say AA dropped into). But that won't happen often. Not many teams will press us like that and if they do, they will probably now position a defensive midfielder to cut off the pass to AA.
We've actually been a good counter attacking team already this season. TE made our counter better, but that's not our main attacking problem. Our problem is when teams sit deep and don't press us, but rather quickly drop deep and have 2 banks of players camped on the edge of their penalty box. Then we won't get the kind of space that we were allowed yesterday and that's when we've struggled before. Then we can't run into space (which we're good at), instead we have to play short passes through their defence, or put crosses into 5'6" tall players which doesn't work.
Yesterday was great and we're no doubt improving, but not every game will be like that tactically. Maybe TE has a fix for when teams play a low block too, time will tell. | | | |
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| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 11:10 - Nov 23 with 2107 views | Bridders2 |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 09:53 - Nov 23 by Ifonly |
What you say is mainly true but is far from the whole story (and Bragg didn't really do anything different to what Downes often does). TE did improve things but what he did won't work in many of our games.
Charlton pressed pretty badly and left themselves open to the counter. There was masses of space for AA to operate in, he often didn't have a defender within 10 yards. That's when he thrives, but he won't get that often. In the 2nd half Charlton did a better job of cutting off our passing options. Other sides will watch the video and learn.
The true test for TE is when we have to face a team that sits deep and packs the defence. Then AA won't have space and we'll face the problem again of not having a true centre forward that can win a physical battle. Can he come up with a plan for those games?
TE has done well so far and will very likely get the job, but don't read too much into a few games, either good or bad. |
'Bragg didn't really do anything different from what Downes does'
The under-21s skipper won the most duels (eight) and had the highest pass accuracy (96 per cent) during the 76 minutes he was on the pitch.
Davidargyll's point was very perceptive, Bragg did make a big difference | | | |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 11:19 - Nov 23 with 2055 views | Ifonly |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 11:10 - Nov 23 by Bridders2 |
'Bragg didn't really do anything different from what Downes does'
The under-21s skipper won the most duels (eight) and had the highest pass accuracy (96 per cent) during the 76 minutes he was on the pitch.
Davidargyll's point was very perceptive, Bragg did make a big difference |
I wasn't commenting on how well he played or saying he didn't play well. The thread says that what Bragg did was a tactical change but it wasn't really, so I said "Bragg didn't really do anything different to what Downes often does". Bragg took on more of the holding role than Jander, but that's what Downes has often done (when he's actually played). | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 12:11 - Nov 23 with 1952 views | davidargyll |
Sorry to come back yet again, Ifonly. But I think you are wrong with your assertion: “Not many teams will press us like that”.
If a team has been coached to press they will continue to do so, as it is nigh on impossible to get a squad of players - apart from the absolute cream that is - to adapt at least in the short term to how an opposition copes with it; CL teams with limited squad numbers by and large simply do not have the physical or mental wherewithal to do so. You have one style of play, one plan and you stick to it.
Tuesday will maybe show if it’s the same old Saints, or a new dawn. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 13:32 - Nov 23 with 1758 views | Southamptonfan |
Yes the tweaks helped, but we had "a style of play". We played out from the back yesterday, but it wasn't slow, ponderous RM style. It was really quick, get the ball up the pitch with speed. Under Still, it was a mess - a bit of passing, lump it up the field, throw the kitchen sink in the last 5 minutes when 2 down, players unsure if what to do.
And most importantly, the players weren't p!ssed off. They tackled yesterday, played with real effort and speed. They looked fitter and more motivated. They didn't like Still and I can see why they didn't. People said Azaz wasn't looking that good. Well he is good, he already proved it last season in the same league, he just wanted to play! Azaz, Fellows, Jander, Armstrong, great to see them all playing in the team from the start. They are goalscoring threats and it's no surprise we score 5 goals. Forget the XG nonsense that Still used to use as excuses. We have the players to score lots of goals. Just play your goal scoring threats, get them in the right places on the pitch, and get them motivated. Do that and you score goals.
As for Tonda, he is a breath of fresh air from Still and we can see that on the pitch. Part of this, is just sheer relief for them all that Still is gone but credit where it's due Tonda has come in and turned things around. As for him getting the job, they obviously like him, they are playing like they want him to get the job, but we have to be careful there. They liked Selles too didnt they, played superbly until he did, then it wore off. Long term, I worry about his lack of experience, but just carry on for the moment and see what happens. [Post edited 23 Nov 13:42]
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| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 14:15 - Nov 23 with 1670 views | Ifonly |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 12:11 - Nov 23 by davidargyll |
Sorry to come back yet again, Ifonly. But I think you are wrong with your assertion: “Not many teams will press us like that”.
If a team has been coached to press they will continue to do so, as it is nigh on impossible to get a squad of players - apart from the absolute cream that is - to adapt at least in the short term to how an opposition copes with it; CL teams with limited squad numbers by and large simply do not have the physical or mental wherewithal to do so. You have one style of play, one plan and you stick to it.
Tuesday will maybe show if it’s the same old Saints, or a new dawn. |
David, you may be right, I said that because that's what we've mostly seen so far in the Championship. There's not as much high pressing as there was last year in the Prem. Maybe the top teams like Coventry and Boro focus on pressing but it seems to me that the average championship side seems more interested in defending deep, or they press for shorter periods and if they don't get it back quickly, they drop back. I haven't gone to every game but the only other team this year that I remember doing what Charlton tried to do was Liverpool in the cup.
I doubt we'll score 5 again on Tuesday but 1-0 would actually be great and hopefully everyone will be even more positive afterwards. I'm looking forward to it for a change. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 14:22 - Nov 23 with 1652 views | Monksway |
Agree with a lot that has been said. We were able to play out from the back at space yesterday because the wing baxks and midfield found the space to receive the pass. Just like with RM it gets slow when no passes are to be found so the easy option is taken sideways across ythe back. Bragg was much better than Downes has been recently in finding space and receiving and moving the ball forwards. This hasn't always been the case with Downes, whether illness, injury or attitude has affected him but he's a shadow of the player that he was a couple of seasons ago. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 14:41 - Nov 23 with 1608 views | davidargyll |
I beg to differ Ifonly!.
The only team who DIDN’T press us - at home anyway - was Sheffield Wednesday.
All the rest, to a greater or lesser extent, most definitely did, especially Stoke, Boro and PNE. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 15:43 - Nov 23 with 1504 views | Ifonly |
| Why we played so much better yesterday… on 14:41 - Nov 23 by davidargyll |
I beg to differ Ifonly!.
The only team who DIDN’T press us - at home anyway - was Sheffield Wednesday.
All the rest, to a greater or lesser extent, most definitely did, especially Stoke, Boro and PNE. |
Yeah, the "lesser extent" is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying others didn't press, I'm saying they weren't as committed as Charlton. Charlton went all-in on it as a tactic, not just picking the best moments like others have done. They committed lots of men forward leaving space behind and weren't as quick to drop back. | | | |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 19:33 - Nov 23 with 1259 views | Ninja9 |
| Why we played so much better yeserday… on 08:48 - Nov 23 by saintwizzler |
Ah…
The old double pivot. |
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