| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 19:33 - Aug 21 with 1517 views | exiledclaseboy |
This is just further proof of how much of an utter tool Dawkins is. |  |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:12 - Aug 21 with 1482 views | Thursday |
Having not experienced those circumstances, I see Dawkins as heartless, but I can't lambaste the man here given that over 90% of people in those circumstances do abort. I don't agree with Dawkins, but given his position as an evolutionary biologist, it's a reasonable position for him to hold. He's writing from a privileged position. It's not as though David Cameron or Brian Blessed made the remark. [Post edited 21 Aug 2014 20:18]
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:20 - Aug 21 with 1466 views | shingle |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 19:33 - Aug 21 by exiledclaseboy |
This is just further proof of how much of an utter tool Dawkins is. |
You need to take a look at his explanation on his facebook page, stop believing everything you read without checking things out first mun. | | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:21 - Aug 21 with 1460 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:20 - Aug 21 by shingle |
You need to take a look at his explanation on his facebook page, stop believing everything you read without checking things out first mun. |
Fair point, I did make a snap judgement on what was in that article.
Although my more general opinion that Dawkins is an utter tool is based on reading much of his work and seeing many of his TV shows/appearances. I agree with much of what Dawkins says, but the bloke's a c*nt. In my opinion. | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:21 - Aug 21 with 1460 views | Thursday |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:20 - Aug 21 by shingle |
You need to take a look at his explanation on his facebook page, stop believing everything you read without checking things out first mun. |
Facebook is the first place to fact-check. | | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:37 - Aug 21 with 1440 views | C_jack |
The percentage rate doesn't give him any more of an excuse for being a vile c**t |  |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:41 - Aug 21 with 1432 views | Thursday |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:37 - Aug 21 by C_jack |
The percentage rate doesn't give him any more of an excuse for being a vile c**t |
No, it doesn't. Unless you're saying that he's a vile c** for holding that opinion? Are you saying that over 90% of people who do abort in these circumstance are also vile c**ts? If so, fair enough. | | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:42 - Aug 21 with 1427 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:41 - Aug 21 by Thursday |
No, it doesn't. Unless you're saying that he's a vile c** for holding that opinion? Are you saying that over 90% of people who do abort in these circumstance are also vile c**ts? If so, fair enough. |
Is it true that 90% of such foetuses are aborted? Must be an awful decision to have to make. | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:49 - Aug 21 with 1410 views | C_jack |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:41 - Aug 21 by Thursday |
No, it doesn't. Unless you're saying that he's a vile c** for holding that opinion? Are you saying that over 90% of people who do abort in these circumstance are also vile c**ts? If so, fair enough. |
It's a horrible statistic, but I think there's room to distinguish between concerned, and often scared parents, and a vile human being who nonchalantly calls it 'immoral' to make the decision to keep the child.
"Abort, and start again" ffs. | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:54 - Aug 21 with 1393 views | Thursday |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:42 - Aug 21 by exiledclaseboy |
Is it true that 90% of such foetuses are aborted? Must be an awful decision to have to make. |
It may be true. I haven't fact-checked or facebooked. I agree that it must be excruciating, and I am thankful it was not part of my life. [Post edited 21 Aug 2014 20:55]
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:55 - Aug 21 with 1386 views | lifelong |
It's a very personal and difficult decision for expectant parents to make, it's not for anybody else to tell them what to do. |  | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:57 - Aug 21 with 1381 views | Thursday |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:49 - Aug 21 by C_jack |
It's a horrible statistic, but I think there's room to distinguish between concerned, and often scared parents, and a vile human being who nonchalantly calls it 'immoral' to make the decision to keep the child.
"Abort, and start again" ffs. |
Edit: my bad. [Post edited 21 Aug 2014 21:00]
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:57 - Aug 21 with 1379 views | acejack3065 |
Its all very well and good debating and using qualatative measures to defend your point of view but this is more than just a cold statistic. The issue at hand is a deeply sensitive and personal one and Dawkins should know better than to use such a statistic for cheap twitter point scoring against the Catholic Church. Utterly contemptible behaviour. |  | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:58 - Aug 21 with 1375 views | dickythorpe |
Very sad. In my work a group of Down's syndrome teenagers come in about once a month and they have manners that are impeccable and would shame most of us.
Plus the smiles i get when having a chat with them are amazing. As a parent I'm sure you would cherish these moments. |  | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:00 - Aug 21 with 1367 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:49 - Aug 21 by C_jack |
It's a horrible statistic, but I think there's room to distinguish between concerned, and often scared parents, and a vile human being who nonchalantly calls it 'immoral' to make the decision to keep the child.
"Abort, and start again" ffs. |
Have you been in that position - to have to decide what you would 'like' to have (a baby), compared against the quality of life you would place on your baby?
I've not been there before, but I know someone who has. She made the decision to keep the baby who was born with all manner of defects to his heart, lungs and brain damage. Her son died aged 3 years old as a result of all the complications - and he spent most of his very short life in and out of hospital.
Down Syndrome doesn't just effect the appearance of a person. You have to think of the bigger picture - may seem cold to some but sometimes abortion may be the better option!
And everytime I see something regarding Dawkins, I know the media have misinterpreted or misrepresented him to cause the most controversy. Natural selection forms a huge basis for where we are today - human evolution! In the wild you would likely see the 'runt' left to die by it's mother. |  |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:03 - Aug 21 with 1361 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:00 - Aug 21 by JackoBoostardo |
Have you been in that position - to have to decide what you would 'like' to have (a baby), compared against the quality of life you would place on your baby?
I've not been there before, but I know someone who has. She made the decision to keep the baby who was born with all manner of defects to his heart, lungs and brain damage. Her son died aged 3 years old as a result of all the complications - and he spent most of his very short life in and out of hospital.
Down Syndrome doesn't just effect the appearance of a person. You have to think of the bigger picture - may seem cold to some but sometimes abortion may be the better option!
And everytime I see something regarding Dawkins, I know the media have misinterpreted or misrepresented him to cause the most controversy. Natural selection forms a huge basis for where we are today - human evolution! In the wild you would likely see the 'runt' left to die by it's mother. |
So do you agree that parents who know that their baby is going to be born with Down's Syndrome should "abort it and try again"? | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:04 - Aug 21 with 1359 views | Thursday |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 20:57 - Aug 21 by acejack3065 |
Its all very well and good debating and using qualatative measures to defend your point of view but this is more than just a cold statistic. The issue at hand is a deeply sensitive and personal one and Dawkins should know better than to use such a statistic for cheap twitter point scoring against the Catholic Church. Utterly contemptible behaviour. |
I think that's very reasonable up until your point about the Catholic Church. Who is point scoring now? Dawkins's comments were responses to specific user comments. | | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:17 - Aug 21 with 1339 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:03 - Aug 21 by exiledclaseboy |
So do you agree that parents who know that their baby is going to be born with Down's Syndrome should "abort it and try again"? |
It's purely down to doing an unselfish act - you have to think of the welfare and quality of life for the baby you are bringing into the world, and whom would need to be cared for.
It's all well and good saying "I want my baby no matter what", but if the chances are the child will be heavily effected as a result of their condition then it should no longer be a case of "I want". | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:18 - Aug 21 with 1338 views | C_jack |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:00 - Aug 21 by JackoBoostardo |
Have you been in that position - to have to decide what you would 'like' to have (a baby), compared against the quality of life you would place on your baby?
I've not been there before, but I know someone who has. She made the decision to keep the baby who was born with all manner of defects to his heart, lungs and brain damage. Her son died aged 3 years old as a result of all the complications - and he spent most of his very short life in and out of hospital.
Down Syndrome doesn't just effect the appearance of a person. You have to think of the bigger picture - may seem cold to some but sometimes abortion may be the better option!
And everytime I see something regarding Dawkins, I know the media have misinterpreted or misrepresented him to cause the most controversy. Natural selection forms a huge basis for where we are today - human evolution! In the wild you would likely see the 'runt' left to die by it's mother. |
I'm not really shocked by your support, but even for you, you've managed to slump to new depths.
Respectfully, please do not assume I need educating on this subject matter. I am not a parent to a person with DS, but through most of my working adult life, it has been my duty to be acutely aware of the stress that parents have before and after birth, and death.
I never will speak for any individual parent, or individual case, but please refrain from using your massive tarring brush to assume that all individuals with DS are born with medical issues that stop them from living full, enriched lives. Many are healthy individuals, just like you and I.
This will be the last post from me in this thread. [Post edited 21 Aug 2014 21:19]
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:23 - Aug 21 with 1326 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:17 - Aug 21 by JackoBoostardo |
It's purely down to doing an unselfish act - you have to think of the welfare and quality of life for the baby you are bringing into the world, and whom would need to be cared for.
It's all well and good saying "I want my baby no matter what", but if the chances are the child will be heavily effected as a result of their condition then it should no longer be a case of "I want". |
So, would you like to answer the question now? Do you think parents who know that the foetus being carried has Down's Syndrome should "abort it and try again"?
And I know for a stone cold fact that many people with Down's Syndrome live happy and fulfilling lives. Your portrayal of them as unfortunate victims is insensitive and plain wrong. | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:24 - Aug 21 with 1322 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:18 - Aug 21 by C_jack |
I'm not really shocked by your support, but even for you, you've managed to slump to new depths.
Respectfully, please do not assume I need educating on this subject matter. I am not a parent to a person with DS, but through most of my working adult life, it has been my duty to be acutely aware of the stress that parents have before and after birth, and death.
I never will speak for any individual parent, or individual case, but please refrain from using your massive tarring brush to assume that all individuals with DS are born with medical issues that stop them from living full, enriched lives. Many are healthy individuals, just like you and I.
This will be the last post from me in this thread. [Post edited 21 Aug 2014 21:19]
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You assume my comments were solely targeted at you as opposed to the whole thread?
And where in my comments did I say "all individuals" with Down Syndrome have further complications.
You may want to re-read it again instead of jumping to conclusions in the same manner you are with Dawkins' posts. And as you may clearly know - you will never truly know the full effect of the condition until the baby is born, and by then it's too late. Is it fair to take a gamble everything will be alright when it will be the baby suffering?
And who's tarring who here by the way? | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:45 - Aug 21 with 1286 views | jackonicko |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:24 - Aug 21 by JackoBoostardo |
You assume my comments were solely targeted at you as opposed to the whole thread?
And where in my comments did I say "all individuals" with Down Syndrome have further complications.
You may want to re-read it again instead of jumping to conclusions in the same manner you are with Dawkins' posts. And as you may clearly know - you will never truly know the full effect of the condition until the baby is born, and by then it's too late. Is it fair to take a gamble everything will be alright when it will be the baby suffering?
And who's tarring who here by the way? |
I could never criticise parents who took the difficult decision to abort in those circumstances. Except if they described the decision they took in as callous a way as Dawkins did.
Dawkins may have only had 140 characters to work with, but as ever he uses his style to generate a reaction. Notch another point to Dawkins. |  | | |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:54 - Aug 21 with 1272 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:45 - Aug 21 by jackonicko |
I could never criticise parents who took the difficult decision to abort in those circumstances. Except if they described the decision they took in as callous a way as Dawkins did.
Dawkins may have only had 140 characters to work with, but as ever he uses his style to generate a reaction. Notch another point to Dawkins. |
It's all down to perception I think.
Blunt?... maybe. Callous....no, I wouldn't say so. This comment was taken from a discussion on Twitter between two people that the women asking the question appeared to understand. It's the people outside of the conversation who do not. | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 22:13 - Aug 21 with 1253 views | JackoBoostardo |
| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 21:23 - Aug 21 by exiledclaseboy |
So, would you like to answer the question now? Do you think parents who know that the foetus being carried has Down's Syndrome should "abort it and try again"?
And I know for a stone cold fact that many people with Down's Syndrome live happy and fulfilling lives. Your portrayal of them as unfortunate victims is insensitive and plain wrong. |
And I know for a fact you are twisting comments - again in the same manner you have taken Dawkins' comments.
I'm not saying they won't live fulfilling lives. Read my comments.
What I am saying, and I think it's clear enough, is that it's a gamble. If you know the baby has a very serious condition (which it is of course!), is it right to take a gamble on the welfare of your son/daughter going forward? By the time the baby is born, it is the baby that has to live with any condition that scans naturally cannot detect.
I've provided to you my experience which clearly wasn't fair on the child OR the mother.
So if you want my answer, truthfully, then yes - I probably would abort.
(bombardment by self righteousness in 3 - 2..1.) | |
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| Richard Dawkins on another charm offensive on 23:32 - Aug 21 with 1192 views | Highjack |
Most people I've seen with this condition seem from the outside at least very happy and content with their lives. When I was in college there were a number of them there and they all had their group of friends and from what I could tell had a decent quality of life.
Any kid can be born with health issues, if we started aborting every foetus because they might get ill at some point there'd be no bugger left. |  |
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