| Our country is fckd match thread 20:04 - Jan 15 with 206606 views | BlackCrowe |
On one side we have a spineless and rudderless government full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.
On the other side we have spineless and rudderless opposition full of self-serving narcissistic cnts utterly divided.
Can someone please show us a third way beyond flipping Vince. Failing a Chuka et al third way then Disco, you're the man no to save us from jezwecan, Diane, Sneery Emily and McDonnell no? [Post edited 15 Jan 2019 20:05]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:32 - Mar 18 with 1799 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:26 - Mar 18 by QPR_Jim |
The negotiation with the EU is pretty one sided, rather than being a conspiracy have you considered that it's the result of 27 countries negotiating as one against a single country? Could be a factor.
Also you may remember the leave campaign making claims about it being an easy deal to make, them needing us more than we need them. What part of those well worn phrases suggest that there's a mandate to leave with no deal.
It's a conspiracy I tells ya! |
I'll counter that with remains project fear that never happened. |  |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:39 - Mar 18 with 1788 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:32 - Mar 18 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
I'll counter that with remains project fear that never happened. |
Irrelevant to your conspiracy theory but counter away. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:40 - Mar 18 with 1784 views | Sharpy36 |
I`ll also add Jim, that the deal which was spoken about during the campaign was infact the trade deal, and in reality should be(although will take some time)easier to finalise than say one with Japan as all the inferstructure and mechanisms are in place.
But after watching the shower at work on the WA nothing would surprise me that they make a total balls up of it. |  |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:42 - Mar 18 with 1779 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:39 - Mar 18 by QPR_Jim |
Irrelevant to your conspiracy theory but counter away. |
It's relevant as project fear has never stopped. | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:59 - Mar 18 with 1752 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:40 - Mar 18 by Sharpy36 |
I`ll also add Jim, that the deal which was spoken about during the campaign was infact the trade deal, and in reality should be(although will take some time)easier to finalise than say one with Japan as all the inferstructure and mechanisms are in place.
But after watching the shower at work on the WA nothing would surprise me that they make a total balls up of it. |
I am assuming that the balance of power in the WA negotiations will be the same in the future trade agreement negotiations which seems a safe bet. The EU appear to be quite good at negotiating as they're acting as one through a single negotiator.
Our strategy is to have several Brexit secretaries in two years who were overridden by May who in turn is bowing to the DUP and the ERG to get support. All the while she's faced two motions of no confidence the most damning being from her own party. Conspiracy theorists will say it's because she's a remainder but an leader with a minority government and the current divisions within their own party would be in the same position although she could have handled it better.
It's going to take a massive shift to regain control of the negotiations. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:00 - Mar 18 with 1750 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:42 - Mar 18 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
It's relevant as project fear has never stopped. |
Sorry but I don't see how it's relevant. Nothing about what you perceive to be "project fear" changes anything I said in my post. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:09 - Mar 18 with 1744 views | Sharpy36 |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:59 - Mar 18 by QPR_Jim |
I am assuming that the balance of power in the WA negotiations will be the same in the future trade agreement negotiations which seems a safe bet. The EU appear to be quite good at negotiating as they're acting as one through a single negotiator.
Our strategy is to have several Brexit secretaries in two years who were overridden by May who in turn is bowing to the DUP and the ERG to get support. All the while she's faced two motions of no confidence the most damning being from her own party. Conspiracy theorists will say it's because she's a remainder but an leader with a minority government and the current divisions within their own party would be in the same position although she could have handled it better.
It's going to take a massive shift to regain control of the negotiations. |
I think we`ll see lots of turns in the road before the 11th hour on the 29th. I`ve never negotiated for anything of note in my life but we`re told that these things always go to the wire.
I have heard a few things over the last few hours as regards of proposals being put to Euro sceptic tories one being Ollie robins will be sacked and also that TM will stand down when this WA finally gets the nod. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:13 - Mar 18 with 1741 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:00 - Mar 18 by QPR_Jim |
Sorry but I don't see how it's relevant. Nothing about what you perceive to be "project fear" changes anything I said in my post. |
My point being we hear so much about leaves claims (NHS 350m) and so on being lies, yet we have not left yet, when project fear was real lies and have been proven to be.
Nothing perceived about that it's fact. [Post edited 18 Mar 2019 23:17]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:21 - Mar 18 with 1732 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:09 - Mar 18 by Sharpy36 |
I think we`ll see lots of turns in the road before the 11th hour on the 29th. I`ve never negotiated for anything of note in my life but we`re told that these things always go to the wire.
I have heard a few things over the last few hours as regards of proposals being put to Euro sceptic tories one being Ollie robins will be sacked and also that TM will stand down when this WA finally gets the nod. |
I think that's part of the reason the speaker is blocking the third vote on the deal, it should surely be considered on it's own merits and not approved on the basis that people will resign afterwards.
They should be doing what they believe is in the nations best interest, whether you agree with their reasoning and conclusions you can at least respect that. But it seems they can change their mind on what's best for the country if it means that they have a shot at being PM. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:30 - Mar 18 with 1722 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:13 - Mar 18 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
My point being we hear so much about leaves claims (NHS 350m) and so on being lies, yet we have not left yet, when project fear was real lies and have been proven to be.
Nothing perceived about that it's fact. [Post edited 18 Mar 2019 23:17]
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How can they be proven to be lies when we've not left yet. How can they ever be proven to be lies when Article 50 was delayed softening the impact as opposed to being immediately issued as leave said it would/should be.
That all being said it still doesn't make a difference to what I said. Say there was a plan to make excessively negative predictions about leaving the EU how does that change the fact that a deal was promised by leave (ie. no mandate for a no deal Brexit) and how does that change the EU having the upper hand in negotiations because of their collective negotiating rather than a conspiracy by our own government? | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:37 - Mar 18 with 1716 views | BucksRanger |
The Shape of Things to Come.
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:42 - Mar 18 with 1714 views | Sharpy36 |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:21 - Mar 18 by QPR_Jim |
I think that's part of the reason the speaker is blocking the third vote on the deal, it should surely be considered on it's own merits and not approved on the basis that people will resign afterwards.
They should be doing what they believe is in the nations best interest, whether you agree with their reasoning and conclusions you can at least respect that. But it seems they can change their mind on what's best for the country if it means that they have a shot at being PM. |
We all know it`s a bad deal for all involved and due to that it wont stand up in parliment, that`s why we have had back handers to labour leave constituent mp`s, as well as back handers offered to the DUP, and those two things are only the tip of the iceburg.
As regards your second point is where we will have to disagree i`m afraid. They should be acting first and foremost in the name of democracy, and that imo is to implement the result of the referendum, and as i`m sure you have read here there and elsewhere, the three pillars of this WA, the money, the Irish border and Expats rights were not part of that referendum. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:48 - Mar 18 with 1706 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:30 - Mar 18 by QPR_Jim |
How can they be proven to be lies when we've not left yet. How can they ever be proven to be lies when Article 50 was delayed softening the impact as opposed to being immediately issued as leave said it would/should be.
That all being said it still doesn't make a difference to what I said. Say there was a plan to make excessively negative predictions about leaving the EU how does that change the fact that a deal was promised by leave (ie. no mandate for a no deal Brexit) and how does that change the EU having the upper hand in negotiations because of their collective negotiating rather than a conspiracy by our own government? |
A little reminder
May said many many times
No deal is better than a bad deal
We now know, if we did not before, that she reneged on that and all the Brexit secretaries resigned as she has never really wanted to stand up to the EU
You may not believe the whole thing has been a sham by May but she had played the whole thing into the hands of remain Mp's and the EU
As I said before Smoke and Mirrors | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:50 - Mar 18 with 1705 views | Sharpy36 |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:37 - Mar 18 by BucksRanger |
The Shape of Things to Come.
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A dangerous man | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 00:07 - Mar 19 with 1692 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:42 - Mar 18 by Sharpy36 |
We all know it`s a bad deal for all involved and due to that it wont stand up in parliment, that`s why we have had back handers to labour leave constituent mp`s, as well as back handers offered to the DUP, and those two things are only the tip of the iceburg.
As regards your second point is where we will have to disagree i`m afraid. They should be acting first and foremost in the name of democracy, and that imo is to implement the result of the referendum, and as i`m sure you have read here there and elsewhere, the three pillars of this WA, the money, the Irish border and Expats rights were not part of that referendum. |
I'd agree with you 100% if the current proposals would deliver on the promises made and therefore what people who voted leave can reasonably expect from leaving the EU. I know a large proportion of leave voters don't really care what was promised as they wanted to leave either way but votes and referendums are generally won by convincing undecided voters and if you believe that your not delivering what they were promised then you have to take that into account.
This isn't the same as a GE, if we leave and decide we don't like the deal and want back in then we won't get our current concessions back. We'll likely only be able to rejoin if we also join the Euro, which nobody wants. So if we plow ahead without considering what we're doing we may be giving up the preferred position in favour of something people wouldn't have voted for.
That's why I think we need a second referendum to clear this up and get it finished one way or the other. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 00:19 - Mar 19 with 1686 views | QPR_Jim |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 23:48 - Mar 18 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
A little reminder
May said many many times
No deal is better than a bad deal
We now know, if we did not before, that she reneged on that and all the Brexit secretaries resigned as she has never really wanted to stand up to the EU
You may not believe the whole thing has been a sham by May but she had played the whole thing into the hands of remain Mp's and the EU
As I said before Smoke and Mirrors |
I remember her saying that, repeatedly, but that was straight from the leavers playbook. Can't take no deal off the table else the EU will walk all over us, so she leaned into it and repeated that phrase like a trained parrot. No deal was only ruled out last week (even then not fully) perhaps it just wasn't as strong a negotiation tactic as it was made out to be. | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 00:58 - Mar 19 with 1676 views | Sharpy36 |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 00:07 - Mar 19 by QPR_Jim |
I'd agree with you 100% if the current proposals would deliver on the promises made and therefore what people who voted leave can reasonably expect from leaving the EU. I know a large proportion of leave voters don't really care what was promised as they wanted to leave either way but votes and referendums are generally won by convincing undecided voters and if you believe that your not delivering what they were promised then you have to take that into account.
This isn't the same as a GE, if we leave and decide we don't like the deal and want back in then we won't get our current concessions back. We'll likely only be able to rejoin if we also join the Euro, which nobody wants. So if we plow ahead without considering what we're doing we may be giving up the preferred position in favour of something people wouldn't have voted for.
That's why I think we need a second referendum to clear this up and get it finished one way or the other. |
Leave the Customs union
Leave the single market
Leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ
Return sovereignty to the UK
End mass immigration
Those above along with a handful of other issues were by and large what i and many other leave voters voted for, and they are all represented in the WA. I also believe that paying the EU any monies for our short term commitments should be honoured, if it comes out at 39 billion is another story, that`s the first point for me. On your second point, the referendum had the largest turnout ever for a public vote, i really don`t think anyone had to have their arm twisted to attend and vote one way or other.
Third point. I get the argument, but why when we joined the common market and through treaty after treaty are we not as a nation allowed to one day say "Hold on, we never signed up to this" and go back to trading with other nations on more favourable terms with our best interests at heart.
At this precise time, what would be the question of a 2nd referendum ?, and to flip Bercows decision on it head, why would he allow a motion for that referendum to pass the house, when it has already been overwhelmingly defeated last week. | |
| 'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.' |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 05:53 - Mar 19 with 1633 views | Watford_Ranger |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 21:36 - Mar 18 by QPR_John |
I wonder what damage those utter morons that make up this country could inflict if they vote for the wrong party to hold power for five years. |
Well we’ve been voting Tory or New Labour (Tory) for a generation. Our voting system makes anything else unlikely but that’s no one’s fault.
Expecting to override parliamentary sovereignty because Leave won narrowly three years ago in a hugely flawed referendum where no normal person could possibly have understood the issue deeply enough to make an informed decision is just stupidly stubborn. There will be winners when we eventually go but it won’t be you or I. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:20 - Mar 19 with 1559 views | AnonymousR |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 00:58 - Mar 19 by Sharpy36 |
Leave the Customs union
Leave the single market
Leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ
Return sovereignty to the UK
End mass immigration
Those above along with a handful of other issues were by and large what i and many other leave voters voted for, and they are all represented in the WA. I also believe that paying the EU any monies for our short term commitments should be honoured, if it comes out at 39 billion is another story, that`s the first point for me. On your second point, the referendum had the largest turnout ever for a public vote, i really don`t think anyone had to have their arm twisted to attend and vote one way or other.
Third point. I get the argument, but why when we joined the common market and through treaty after treaty are we not as a nation allowed to one day say "Hold on, we never signed up to this" and go back to trading with other nations on more favourable terms with our best interests at heart.
At this precise time, what would be the question of a 2nd referendum ?, and to flip Bercows decision on it head, why would he allow a motion for that referendum to pass the house, when it has already been overwhelmingly defeated last week. |
This thread by an MP on Twitter describes the complexity of parliament's position.
Your version of leave isn't the same as all of these, so why should your version take precedence? |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:48 - Mar 19 with 1536 views | LunarJetman |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:20 - Mar 19 by AnonymousR |
This thread by an MP on Twitter describes the complexity of parliament's position.
Your version of leave isn't the same as all of these, so why should your version take precedence? |
Therein lies the problem. You've got Brexiters who can't agree on what Brexit actually is... Until they come to some sort of consensus, the leavers won't all truly be happy, so with the Remainers not being happy at leaving either, there's going to be a lot of unhappy people in this country..
What should have happened before Article 50 was revoked was the leavers all worked out what leave actually means, come to an agreement and then put it to parliament to vote on. If this has been done they'd have stood a much greater chance of getting it through Parliament and then could have then revoked Article 50 with a clear direction. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:12 - Mar 19 with 1514 views | traininvain |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 09:20 - Mar 19 by AnonymousR |
This thread by an MP on Twitter describes the complexity of parliament's position.
Your version of leave isn't the same as all of these, so why should your version take precedence? |
And this is why the last referendum was flawed. Too many different interpretations of leave. What a mess. |  | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:20 - Mar 19 with 1499 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
I have a question.
What has the EU done that is NEW in the last 3 years to make it more palatable to leave votes?
Or is it just nothing but the status quo (nothing changes) and project fear and threats.
I remember them saying they have to change but have they. | |
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:36 - Mar 19 with 1473 views | nadera78 |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 22:42 - Mar 18 by 2Thomas2Bowles |
It's relevant as project fear has never stopped. |
Project Reality | | | |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:39 - Mar 19 with 1465 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:36 - Mar 19 by nadera78 |
Project Reality |
Well, it wasn't reality after the result, Even Carney now admits he was completely wrong.
And now
Mark Carney, who says a no-deal Brexit is not the catastrophe many believed it would be when. [Post edited 19 Mar 2019 10:43]
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| Our country is fckd match thread on 10:51 - Mar 19 with 1451 views | GloryHunter |
| Our country is fckd match thread on 00:58 - Mar 19 by Sharpy36 |
Leave the Customs union
Leave the single market
Leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ
Return sovereignty to the UK
End mass immigration
Those above along with a handful of other issues were by and large what i and many other leave voters voted for, and they are all represented in the WA. I also believe that paying the EU any monies for our short term commitments should be honoured, if it comes out at 39 billion is another story, that`s the first point for me. On your second point, the referendum had the largest turnout ever for a public vote, i really don`t think anyone had to have their arm twisted to attend and vote one way or other.
Third point. I get the argument, but why when we joined the common market and through treaty after treaty are we not as a nation allowed to one day say "Hold on, we never signed up to this" and go back to trading with other nations on more favourable terms with our best interests at heart.
At this precise time, what would be the question of a 2nd referendum ?, and to flip Bercows decision on it head, why would he allow a motion for that referendum to pass the house, when it has already been overwhelmingly defeated last week. |
" to flip Bercows decision on it head, why would he allow a motion for that referendum to pass the house, when it has already been overwhelmingly defeated last week. "
Because Sarah Wollaston's proposal was an amendment to a motion, not the motion itself. Amendments can be re-introduced, motions cannot. I think. |  | | |
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