| EGM + statement on 16:30 - Feb 20 with 7890 views | scooby |
So either go with this or lose your shares in administration. Needed and the only way to do it. Fan owned was never going to be attractive for an owner.
However, finally, clarity on the situation and some of the debt even if SG focused and not an overall view |  | |  |
| EGM + statement on 16:30 - Feb 20 with 7888 views | SuddenLad |
Hobson's choice. Vote for the motions as proposed or kiss RAFC goodbye.
6 weeks to save our club. š |  |
| Ć¢ā¬ÅIt is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooledĆ¢ā¬Ā |
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| EGM + statement on 16:37 - Feb 20 with 7802 views | Duckegg |
Lets face it this as been coming and now the reality is coming sooner than we would like...
No amount of fund raising by the trust will save the club not even what SG isasking unless there is somebody willing to come in and open their chq book.. |  | | |
| EGM + statement on 16:43 - Feb 20 with 7700 views | 442Dale |
And this is why we needed lots more clarity when we were setting off from Southampton. Time and again that was requested, time and again that can was kicked down the road.
Itās ok though, because fans can still help sign players.
History remembers. |  |
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| EGM + statement on 16:47 - Feb 20 with 7659 views | DaleiLama |
| EGM + statement on 16:30 - Feb 20 by scooby |
So either go with this or lose your shares in administration. Needed and the only way to do it. Fan owned was never going to be attractive for an owner.
However, finally, clarity on the situation and some of the debt even if SG focused and not an overall view |
The value of shares is extremely fluid. The 50p shares were sold at Ā£2 then Ā£2.35/share to fans and the board recently. Any current shares privately held would seem to be "lost" in either eventuality. Even with a new investor buying 9M "A" shares @ Ā£2M (= just over 20p/share) the new owner of the club surely wouldn't need to mop up the last 10% of shares, and certainly not at any of the above prices after paying pence for his/her shares (or whatever other pronoun is appropriate).
As SL said, Hobson's choice. But it never looked like going any other way?
Edit .............. and now in the public domain
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rochdale-af
[Post edited 20 Feb 16:54]
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| EGM + statement on 16:53 - Feb 20 with 7577 views | DaleFan7 |
Baffling that it's taken this long to reach this stage when the seeming lack of action to cut costs has had us in a downward spiral for a while now.
Does this mean we've got 6 weeks to pass this resolution, find an investor and get them onbaord with FA/NL? Or is there someone waiting in the wings to jump in if the conditions are met? If so, is this something the Trust knows about? | | | |
| EGM + statement on 16:55 - Feb 20 with 7525 views | 442Dale |
| EGM + statement on 16:47 - Feb 20 by DaleiLama |
The value of shares is extremely fluid. The 50p shares were sold at Ā£2 then Ā£2.35/share to fans and the board recently. Any current shares privately held would seem to be "lost" in either eventuality. Even with a new investor buying 9M "A" shares @ Ā£2M (= just over 20p/share) the new owner of the club surely wouldn't need to mop up the last 10% of shares, and certainly not at any of the above prices after paying pence for his/her shares (or whatever other pronoun is appropriate).
As SL said, Hobson's choice. But it never looked like going any other way?
Edit .............. and now in the public domain
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rochdale-af
[Post edited 20 Feb 16:54]
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Never? Bored of posting those links from April ā22. Meandering failure.
They know. | |
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| EGM + statement on 17:04 - Feb 20 with 7413 views | DaleiLama |
| EGM + statement on 16:55 - Feb 20 by 442Dale |
Never? Bored of posting those links from April ā22. Meandering failure.
They know. |
With hindsight, the content of those links and the outcome were at best BS and at worst, incompetence. I should have qualified that "never" as applying to the festering mess left over from Stockdale/Bentley and the resultant relegation. | |
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| EGM + statement on 17:15 - Feb 20 with 7276 views | dale18 |
Silly question- but if we are asset rich, cash poor as the chairman states. Can we not remortgage the ground to inject cash quickly? | | | |
| EGM + statement on 17:20 - Feb 20 with 7187 views | DaleFan7 |
| EGM + statement on 17:15 - Feb 20 by dale18 |
Silly question- but if we are asset rich, cash poor as the chairman states. Can we not remortgage the ground to inject cash quickly? |
Who's going to mortgage it if we're loss making and potentially won't pay it back though? | | | |
| EGM + statement on 17:24 - Feb 20 with 7129 views | DareToCalvin |
Confirming our worst fears. Felt physically sick reading that.
6 weeks to go. |  | | |
| EGM + statement on 17:24 - Feb 20 with 7129 views | JimmyRustler |
| EGM + statement on 17:15 - Feb 20 by dale18 |
Silly question- but if we are asset rich, cash poor as the chairman states. Can we not remortgage the ground to inject cash quickly? |
Youād have to prove you can manage the repayments without relying on the injection itself.
We would probably also need a business plan of some description (thatās not written on the back of a fag packet) |  | | |
| EGM + statement on 17:29 - Feb 20 with 7071 views | D_Alien |
Now this is out in the open, as suggested yesterday there's just no point in the Trust continuing with its very well-meaning proposal regarding 200+ share issuance at Ā£58.75p each
I'd also question, given the timeline, the value of the Fans Forum on Thursday 29 Feb, i.e. a week before the EGM. It's my opinion that it'd be impossible to concentrate on anything but the EGM, which would be the proper place to discuss the EGM resolutions
At this stage, the danger of the Forum becoming a slanging match (including non-shareholders) is - again, entirely imo - too dangerous and could even precipitate the end of Dale (as we know it) regardless of other events
I'm sure others will have a different opinion, and might see it as an opportunity to raise questions, but there's an EGM the week after for that. Football matters are pretty irrelevant in this context; is anyone seriously bothered about whether we bring all players back for corners, right now? |  |
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| EGM + statement on 17:40 - Feb 20 with 6956 views | DorkingDale |
The worst possible news, but not unexpected.
End of Morris resolution - the shysters will be queuing up to buy 90% & have total control including the stadium.
So sad, especially after so many people worked so hard to keep Morton House at bay. Never thought I'd say it, but we might have been better off with that shower. | | | |
| EGM + statement on 17:43 - Feb 20 with 6922 views | scooby |
If Simon converts debt to shares as per resolution, what does his Ā£500K+ equate to in % + his current holding? Would that give him enough to sell the ground?
Also, doesnāt this make the trust dead whichever way? | | | |
| EGM + statement on 17:48 - Feb 20 with 6844 views | 442Dale |
| EGM + statement on 17:29 - Feb 20 by D_Alien |
Now this is out in the open, as suggested yesterday there's just no point in the Trust continuing with its very well-meaning proposal regarding 200+ share issuance at Ā£58.75p each
I'd also question, given the timeline, the value of the Fans Forum on Thursday 29 Feb, i.e. a week before the EGM. It's my opinion that it'd be impossible to concentrate on anything but the EGM, which would be the proper place to discuss the EGM resolutions
At this stage, the danger of the Forum becoming a slanging match (including non-shareholders) is - again, entirely imo - too dangerous and could even precipitate the end of Dale (as we know it) regardless of other events
I'm sure others will have a different opinion, and might see it as an opportunity to raise questions, but there's an EGM the week after for that. Football matters are pretty irrelevant in this context; is anyone seriously bothered about whether we bring all players back for corners, right now? |
I can see your points, (another reason why the forum should never have been moved in the first place) but also ALL supporters need to be given an opportunity to find out exactly what the options and implications are. Iām not saying that what weāve heard today doesnāt provide some answers but there are still plenty more questions that anyone would want to know the answer to.
For example:
1) what are the current debts?
2) how much would it cost to run the club in different scenarios eg full/part time with different levels of staffing?
3) without investment, why is the word āliquidationā used and isnāt administration an option?
Iām not saying there arenāt already answers to those before the usual patronising circus pitches a temporary tent in this thread, but lots might want answers to those and plenty more before an EGM.
Thereās a real argument for a supporters meeting too, if only for people to be able to express their concern/ideas/questions in an environment that isnāt like a āhereās a microphone, ask a question before we move round the roomā
I donāt know. Maybe itās all pie in the sky, but the predictability of this was recognised a long time ago. Hence why there was importance put on those Trust meetings over the last year. From the last six months alone:
No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting by 442Dale 14 Oct 2023 17:17With a potentially crucial revenue stream now not able to be exploited, planning for possible future scenarios takes on even more importance as time continues to tick by. For reference, again, supporters showed real interest at the fans meeting with the Trust on the 25th August in looking at what role we can all play, and a further meeting was requested that evening with it being stressed how important it was to not let too much time pass - before the Halifax and Barnet games were two suggestions (the 2nd and 16th of September).
Last Sunday the following was posted on this messageboard:
Specific details about the opportunities for volunteers are due to be released by the end of this week.
On the other subjects raised in this thread it is crucial the fans meeting the Trust have planned is confirmed as soon as possible. The lack of clarity around our current situation is becoming an obvious problem.
The importance of this fans meeting was established in the Trust newsletter released at the start of October:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/20
<<ā We have a fans meeting planned for later this month. It is currently booked in for the morning of the Oldham game. However, given the issues that we faced when we held a meeting ahead of the Bromley game, we are looking at what will be the best way of hosting that event. It is important that such a meeting is held ahead of our meeting with the Directors a few days later, but with a larger crowd expected for this game, it may be counter productive. We will update members sooner rather than later with respect to this.ā>>
So, since that post on the 8th and then noting that the newsletter came out at the start of the month, has anyone heard anything about the already scheduled fans meeting? Especially as we were expecting to hear āsooner rather than laterā. Or any updates from the volunteer meeting for that matter.
Results should never impact delaying achievable work on the future of the football club, whether itās when we were winning, or even today. But everyone knows how going out of the cup will be a definite financial blow.
Dale Trust AGM, Saturday 11am, Dale Bar by 442Dale 15 Nov 2023 20:18https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/11/trust-agm-18-11/
A reminder that the Trust AGM takes place this Saturday and how important it is for members to attend if they possibly can. The current uncertainty that exists around the direction of the club was highlighted at a recent fans meeting with the Trust, with the following being provided so far as answers to some questions raised:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/11/update-to-members/
Saturday not only allows supporters to take part in the Trust AGM, but raise any further questions or issues you believe could be discussed at the Trustās twice postponed meeting with the club which is scheduled for Thursday 23rd November.
Recent weeks have been real opportunities for fans and the Trust to play an important part at a crucial point in the clubās history. Saturday is another. We cannot waste it.
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| EGM + statement on 17:58 - Feb 20 with 6714 views | D_Alien |
| EGM + statement on 17:48 - Feb 20 by 442Dale |
I can see your points, (another reason why the forum should never have been moved in the first place) but also ALL supporters need to be given an opportunity to find out exactly what the options and implications are. Iām not saying that what weāve heard today doesnāt provide some answers but there are still plenty more questions that anyone would want to know the answer to.
For example:
1) what are the current debts?
2) how much would it cost to run the club in different scenarios eg full/part time with different levels of staffing?
3) without investment, why is the word āliquidationā used and isnāt administration an option?
Iām not saying there arenāt already answers to those before the usual patronising circus pitches a temporary tent in this thread, but lots might want answers to those and plenty more before an EGM.
Thereās a real argument for a supporters meeting too, if only for people to be able to express their concern/ideas/questions in an environment that isnāt like a āhereās a microphone, ask a question before we move round the roomā
I donāt know. Maybe itās all pie in the sky, but the predictability of this was recognised a long time ago. Hence why there was importance put on those Trust meetings over the last year. From the last six months alone:
No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting by 442Dale 14 Oct 2023 17:17With a potentially crucial revenue stream now not able to be exploited, planning for possible future scenarios takes on even more importance as time continues to tick by. For reference, again, supporters showed real interest at the fans meeting with the Trust on the 25th August in looking at what role we can all play, and a further meeting was requested that evening with it being stressed how important it was to not let too much time pass - before the Halifax and Barnet games were two suggestions (the 2nd and 16th of September).
Last Sunday the following was posted on this messageboard:
Specific details about the opportunities for volunteers are due to be released by the end of this week.
On the other subjects raised in this thread it is crucial the fans meeting the Trust have planned is confirmed as soon as possible. The lack of clarity around our current situation is becoming an obvious problem.
The importance of this fans meeting was established in the Trust newsletter released at the start of October:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/20
<<ā We have a fans meeting planned for later this month. It is currently booked in for the morning of the Oldham game. However, given the issues that we faced when we held a meeting ahead of the Bromley game, we are looking at what will be the best way of hosting that event. It is important that such a meeting is held ahead of our meeting with the Directors a few days later, but with a larger crowd expected for this game, it may be counter productive. We will update members sooner rather than later with respect to this.ā>>
So, since that post on the 8th and then noting that the newsletter came out at the start of the month, has anyone heard anything about the already scheduled fans meeting? Especially as we were expecting to hear āsooner rather than laterā. Or any updates from the volunteer meeting for that matter.
Results should never impact delaying achievable work on the future of the football club, whether itās when we were winning, or even today. But everyone knows how going out of the cup will be a definite financial blow.
Dale Trust AGM, Saturday 11am, Dale Bar by 442Dale 15 Nov 2023 20:18https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/11/trust-agm-18-11/
A reminder that the Trust AGM takes place this Saturday and how important it is for members to attend if they possibly can. The current uncertainty that exists around the direction of the club was highlighted at a recent fans meeting with the Trust, with the following being provided so far as answers to some questions raised:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2023/11/update-to-members/
Saturday not only allows supporters to take part in the Trust AGM, but raise any further questions or issues you believe could be discussed at the Trustās twice postponed meeting with the club which is scheduled for Thursday 23rd November.
Recent weeks have been real opportunities for fans and the Trust to play an important part at a crucial point in the clubās history. Saturday is another. We cannot waste it.
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I can see the value in all your points
Just on the specific questions, i have severe doubts whether 1) and 2) could be answered in an open public forum. Re: 3) that's something that might well trigger the kind of end-of-meeting/club reaction i fear will happen | |
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| EGM + statement on 18:01 - Feb 20 with 6664 views | Newbury_Dale |
What are the Uneconomical Leases referring to in SGs statement ? Didn't understand that. | | | |
| EGM + statement on 18:04 - Feb 20 with 6606 views | Duckegg |
What is so specific about owning 90% the figure mentioned by SG. | | | |
| EGM + statement on 18:06 - Feb 20 with 6561 views | 100notout |
| EGM + statement on 18:01 - Feb 20 by Newbury_Dale |
What are the Uneconomical Leases referring to in SGs statement ? Didn't understand that. |
Hornets I would guess | |
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| EGM + statement (n/t) on 18:08 - Feb 20 with 6538 views | DorkingDale |
| EGM + statement on 18:01 - Feb 20 by Newbury_Dale |
What are the Uneconomical Leases referring to in SGs statement ? Didn't understand that. |
[Post edited 20 Feb 18:12]
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| EGM + statement on 18:08 - Feb 20 with 6522 views | 442Dale |
| EGM + statement on 17:58 - Feb 20 by D_Alien |
I can see the value in all your points
Just on the specific questions, i have severe doubts whether 1) and 2) could be answered in an open public forum. Re: 3) that's something that might well trigger the kind of end-of-meeting/club reaction i fear will happen |
Yeah, I know. But what are the alternatives because without asking them somewhere or trying to find out more, weāre in a position reflected in that statement today.
Being backed up against the wall is one thing, but are we even being given a chance to see what the routes out are?
And yeah, those questions might not work, but people have plenty more Iām sure. Imagine being a non shareholder and not even being given a chance to say something, anything. There will be so much worry and upset amongst supporters tonight. That needs to be acknowledged and addressed if possible. | |
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| EGM + statement on 18:08 - Feb 20 with 6503 views | 442Dale |
| EGM + statement on 18:04 - Feb 20 by Duckegg |
What is so specific about owning 90% the figure mentioned by SG. |
Another good question. | |
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| EGM + statement on 18:15 - Feb 20 with 6404 views | DaleiLama |
| EGM + statement on 18:04 - Feb 20 by Duckegg |
What is so specific about owning 90% the figure mentioned by SG. |
Not an expert on such matters, but did a quick Google search (and this may not be a definitive answer as there may be different rules for different classes of companies), but
"There are procedures in the Companies Acts which allow a person who acquires 90% of the ordinary share capital to acquire compulsorily the other 10%.
So a 10.1% shareholding gives the power to block a takeover and buyers almost inevitably want to acquire 100% of the companyās shares.
There are in fact other procedures (but these require a Court Order), under which someone who acquires 75% shareholder support can acquire all the shares."
If this is the case, and new owners got 90% or more, sounds like that means they'd have the right to compulsorily buy any remaining shares out - at 22p? - to get to 100% ownership. So shareholders may get some of their cash back. Speaking personally, I regard my shareholding as an unsecured loan which would never be repaid but it might be important to some?
Does anyone have any idea of the value of the stadium land to a developer? Would Ā£2M + cost of acquisition + cost of clearance (+ cost of repaying SG's loan?) still make it attractive as an investment? | |
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| EGM + statement on 18:16 - Feb 20 with 6392 views | Dalenet |
I think Murray is best resigning from the Board asap to allow the Trust some breathing space here. In December shareholders were told of the cost challenges and the money the Chairman and Board was having to put in, but we were told that the club was now operating at break even. Yes were also told that we were expecting the proceeds of a player sale in January that didn't come.
In early January, following the Trust meeting with the Dale Board, it was agreed that a further 50,000 shares would be made available to Dale fans to buy. The Trust also got the Board to agree to the aggregate scheme for smaller purchases.
Within 7 weeks of that we are being told that time is up and we run out of cash next month. Adminstration isn't an option as I assume one or more major directors will want assets disposed of to repay them - or other major creditors. We have no idea whether we have other non loan debt such as outstanding HMRC debt. Hence the suggestion of liquidation.
So anybody that bought shares since the Trust & Board meeting have done so when it was clear all along that we were likely to go under. Buying shares is always a judgement call, but the timing of this share issuance is questionable.
So if shareholders approve the motions and the club can issue unlimited shares at whatever price, and the key Director A Shares are then allowed to appoint or sack Board members, and the A Shares get preference in any liquidation, as I read it the Trust and any fan owned ordinary shares are worthless - either as a voting option, or as an investment. New owners, or the current Director A share holders have full authority and ownership. If we don't have a buyer lined up.....I can see a number of scenario's here - but none will be influenced by the fans or the Ordinary share shareholders.
A dark day - a message that probably wouldn't have been issued this afternoon had we not postponed tonights game. [Post edited 20 Feb 18:21]
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