| Clarke Carlisle 20:42 - Feb 6 with 5519 views | dalenumber2 |
Credit to Clarke Carlisle and his wife for bringing the plight of the mentally ill to the public's attention and hopefully enabling more people to speak out and not feel that there is too much of a stigma attached to the suffering experienced from depression.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/31142797 |  | | |  |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:16 - Feb 6 with 3651 views | Fondles |
You heard it here first 
I am like the Upthedale89 of suicide attempts |  | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:18 - Feb 6 with 3642 views | nordenblue |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:16 - Feb 6 by Fondles |
You heard it here first
I am like the Upthedale89 of suicide attempts |
You need to throw quite a few false ones in though fondles to match him |  | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:20 - Feb 6 with 3631 views | Fondles |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:18 - Feb 6 by nordenblue |
You need to throw quite a few false ones in though fondles to match him |
He got his first one right.....watch this space | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:22 - Feb 6 with 3619 views | nordenblue |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:20 - Feb 6 by Fondles |
He got his first one right.....watch this space |
You need to get the next few wrong then | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 11:16 - Feb 8 with 3282 views | aleanddale |
Hope he gets the help he needs.
A very dark place depression and difficult to shake when it gets a grip of you.
Not from personal experience but from close family members. | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 11:53 - Feb 8 with 3220 views | batfink |
Pretty sure the big wad of cash from the sun is what encouraged him to talk about it. |  | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 11:58 - Feb 8 with 3209 views | tazzydjr |
| Clarke Carlisle on 11:53 - Feb 8 by batfink |
Pretty sure the big wad of cash from the sun is what encouraged him to talk about it. |
Wonder what he tried stitching Mr Little up with all them years ago maybe we'll never know! |  |
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| Clarke Carlisle on 12:56 - Feb 8 with 3112 views | funkkk |
| Clarke Carlisle on 11:58 - Feb 8 by tazzydjr |
Wonder what he tried stitching Mr Little up with all them years ago maybe we'll never know! |
He borrowed his card to put petrol in his car and ended up using it to go on a two day bender. Think his comments also relate to Carlisle's repeated drink driving. |  | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 15:34 - Feb 8 with 2959 views | TomRAFC |
Welcome to the world of clinical depression. I work with it and have experienced it.
It is a vile condition where your brain bullies and torments its own mind. Trying to express the sheer agony, distress and exhaustion it brings is almost impossible.
The biggest regret a lot of my patients have expressed is that they have attempted suicide in a way that dragged other people into their mire.
Selfish though is an over simplification. When someone is in the place Clarke Carlisle was, expecting them to fully understand the knock on effect of their actions is like asking someone in a wheelchair to dance just a little. You aren't asking them to do much. Just something basic. Despite being simple it is the exact opposite of what their condition (when at it's most intense) allows them to do. When you feel no hope for existence you have lost your reasoning.
I am in no way exhonorating him or attempting to belittle the traumatic experience which the driver can never forget. It is just a very very complex condition. Far more complex than it is often accepted as being.
"If he survives I would like to meet the man. I don't have any hatred towards him. He did what he did because he was in a bad place. But the consequences of his actions have now put me in a similar place. I'm not angry at him".
[Post edited 9 Feb 2015 2:58]
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| Clarke Carlisle on 15:34 - Feb 8 with 2959 views | dalenumber2 |
If you have ever known anyone suffer extreme depression you would know that you do become completely self absorbed and consumed by feelings of worthlessness. There is not normally rational thought behind a suicide attempt and the safety or well-being of others is not a consideration. It's a horrible horrible illness not only for those suffering with it but also to family and friends. | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 16:43 - Feb 8 with 2889 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Clarke Carlisle on 15:34 - Feb 8 by TomRAFC |
Welcome to the world of clinical depression. I work with it and have experienced it.
It is a vile condition where your brain bullies and torments its own mind. Trying to express the sheer agony, distress and exhaustion it brings is almost impossible.
The biggest regret a lot of my patients have expressed is that they have attempted suicide in a way that dragged other people into their mire.
Selfish though is an over simplification. When someone is in the place Clarke Carlisle was, expecting them to fully understand the knock on effect of their actions is like asking someone in a wheelchair to dance just a little. You aren't asking them to do much. Just something basic. Despite being simple it is the exact opposite of what their condition (when at it's most intense) allows them to do. When you feel no hope for existence you have lost your reasoning.
I am in no way exhonorating him or attempting to belittle the traumatic experience which the driver can never forget. It is just a very very complex condition. Far more complex than it is often accepted as being.
"If he survives I would like to meet the man. I don't have any hatred towards him. He did what he did because he was in a bad place. But the consequences of his actions have now put me in a similar place. I'm not angry at him".
[Post edited 9 Feb 2015 2:58]
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Word for word, a brilliant post Tom. Absolutely spot on! |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| Clarke Carlisle on 17:20 - Feb 8 with 2825 views | D_Alien |
| Clarke Carlisle on 15:34 - Feb 8 by TomRAFC |
Welcome to the world of clinical depression. I work with it and have experienced it.
It is a vile condition where your brain bullies and torments its own mind. Trying to express the sheer agony, distress and exhaustion it brings is almost impossible.
The biggest regret a lot of my patients have expressed is that they have attempted suicide in a way that dragged other people into their mire.
Selfish though is an over simplification. When someone is in the place Clarke Carlisle was, expecting them to fully understand the knock on effect of their actions is like asking someone in a wheelchair to dance just a little. You aren't asking them to do much. Just something basic. Despite being simple it is the exact opposite of what their condition (when at it's most intense) allows them to do. When you feel no hope for existence you have lost your reasoning.
I am in no way exhonorating him or attempting to belittle the traumatic experience which the driver can never forget. It is just a very very complex condition. Far more complex than it is often accepted as being.
"If he survives I would like to meet the man. I don't have any hatred towards him. He did what he did because he was in a bad place. But the consequences of his actions have now put me in a similar place. I'm not angry at him".
[Post edited 9 Feb 2015 2:58]
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Tom, you don't need to welcome me to the world of clinical depression, having experience of what you describe during a long career - I won't go into details. Nevertheless, I stand by what I've said. It's still an act of extreme selfishness. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm fully aware of the complexities of human psychology. The fact that I sometimes post flippantly (I wasn't being flippant in my previous post btw) shouldn't disguise that.
Why do I describe it as a selfish act then? Simply by following your own description - of someone so enmeshed in their own predicament that they're unable to see how their actions affect others. |  |
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| Clarke Carlisle on 18:54 - Feb 8 with 2755 views | dalenumber2 |
| Clarke Carlisle on 17:20 - Feb 8 by D_Alien |
Tom, you don't need to welcome me to the world of clinical depression, having experience of what you describe during a long career - I won't go into details. Nevertheless, I stand by what I've said. It's still an act of extreme selfishness. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
I'm fully aware of the complexities of human psychology. The fact that I sometimes post flippantly (I wasn't being flippant in my previous post btw) shouldn't disguise that.
Why do I describe it as a selfish act then? Simply by following your own description - of someone so enmeshed in their own predicament that they're unable to see how their actions affect others. |
Of course it was selfish, but you seem to imply in your previous post that he might have had a choice whether or not to be selfish? | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 19:32 - Feb 8 with 2699 views | MoonyDale |
| Clarke Carlisle on 18:54 - Feb 8 by dalenumber2 |
Of course it was selfish, but you seem to imply in your previous post that he might have had a choice whether or not to be selfish? |
To be fair to D_Alien and as someone who is clinically depressed one of the only things that has stopped me doing what Clarke did is the knowledge that it would be completely unfair to involve anyone else in my actions. It has saved my arse on a number of occasions as have other strategies, not everyone is the same as myself though and what works for me will not work for everyone.... |  |
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| Clarke Carlisle on 19:36 - Feb 8 with 2688 views | Fondles |
I have often thought, if ever I would do this the train is the best thing to jump in front of. No surviving that one.
Hope I don't do a Carlisle, I only live 3 houses from the east coast mainline | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 19:43 - Feb 8 with 2674 views | onedalefan |
| Clarke Carlisle on 19:36 - Feb 8 by Fondles |
I have often thought, if ever I would do this the train is the best thing to jump in front of. No surviving that one.
Hope I don't do a Carlisle, I only live 3 houses from the east coast mainline |
And that is totally unfair on the train driver. Numerous ones have never worked again as unlike something on a road, they have no chance of avoiding the inevitable outcome. |  | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 19:45 - Feb 8 with 2667 views | D_Alien |
| Clarke Carlisle on 18:54 - Feb 8 by dalenumber2 |
Of course it was selfish, but you seem to imply in your previous post that he might have had a choice whether or not to be selfish? |
You're right. It's true to say that once an individual falls into a state of mind where only one outcome seems possible then they're literally not in control of their actions.
In Clark's case, he has a previous history of suicide attempts and would, through extensive contact with mental healthcare professionals, have - or should have had - a plan in place whereby early self-recognition of signs and symptoms would have led to a different place than a busy A-road. The fact that it didn't isn't being overly critical; it's simply a reflection on what exactly it means to be selfish. Part of the mental distress arises from a feeling that you're losing your sense of self, in which case the act of extinguishing consciousness can be regarded as perhaps the most extreme version of selfishness.
[Post edited 8 Feb 2015 19:46]
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| Clarke Carlisle on 19:48 - Feb 8 with 2654 views | Fondles |
On the plus side, it'll save our lass scattering my ashes | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:13 - Feb 8 with 2555 views | itschalky |
Anybody who thinks that its selfish to commit suicide fails to realise that when you are suffering depression you don't think that people will be upset by your actions, in fact the opposite,you think that they would be better off without you... | | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 00:14 - Feb 9 with 2476 views | D_Alien |
| Clarke Carlisle on 21:13 - Feb 8 by itschalky |
Anybody who thinks that its selfish to commit suicide fails to realise that when you are suffering depression you don't think that people will be upset by your actions, in fact the opposite,you think that they would be better off without you... |
And because the feeling that people would be better off without them only reinforces their sense of loss of self, it becomes even more imperative to extinguish that sensation, hence the desperate acts.
I'm not using the term selfish in the trivial way it'd be used when talking about i.e. a spoilt child; rather as the very basis of what constitutes an adult psyche.
Not a subject many would want to dwell too long upon, possibly, but it's there in all of us. | |
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| Clarke Carlisle on 09:15 - Feb 9 with 2330 views | JimmyRustler |
| Clarke Carlisle on 00:14 - Feb 9 by D_Alien |
And because the feeling that people would be better off without them only reinforces their sense of loss of self, it becomes even more imperative to extinguish that sensation, hence the desperate acts.
I'm not using the term selfish in the trivial way it'd be used when talking about i.e. a spoilt child; rather as the very basis of what constitutes an adult psyche.
Not a subject many would want to dwell too long upon, possibly, but it's there in all of us. |
For me, suicide can never be a selfish act even though it is often perceived as one from the outside. For one, the person in question isn't in control of themselves or their emotions enough to comprehend a sense of loss or the repercussions that arise from such loss. It's impossible to be truly selfish unless you can fully appreciate that you are actually being so and this is pretty much impossible when you're imprisoned by your own state of mind.
In order to be selfish, the act being committed technically has to be of a benefit to the person committing it and this just isn't the case here as the person usually thinks that others will be better of without them and that they're actually doing people a favour (almost selfless in a warped sort of way). I actually subscribe to the theory that everything we do is selfish but that's another debate for another day. |  | | |
| Clarke Carlisle on 09:54 - Feb 9 with 2288 views | D_Alien |
| Clarke Carlisle on 09:15 - Feb 9 by JimmyRustler |
For me, suicide can never be a selfish act even though it is often perceived as one from the outside. For one, the person in question isn't in control of themselves or their emotions enough to comprehend a sense of loss or the repercussions that arise from such loss. It's impossible to be truly selfish unless you can fully appreciate that you are actually being so and this is pretty much impossible when you're imprisoned by your own state of mind.
In order to be selfish, the act being committed technically has to be of a benefit to the person committing it and this just isn't the case here as the person usually thinks that others will be better of without them and that they're actually doing people a favour (almost selfless in a warped sort of way). I actually subscribe to the theory that everything we do is selfish but that's another debate for another day. |
Well I'm not going to disagree with much of what you and others say, because there's a lot of truth in it. What I'm trying to explain is the profession of psychiatry uses the term "the self" in a way which allows for the act of suicide to be correctly described as selfish.
I've tried to give the example of how this differs from a trivial use of "selfish" as in a selfish child or whatever, but it's just not being understood. So without going into the realms of psychopathology I'll leave it there, and maintain that my original post stands; it was posted in good faith and not without due consideration. | |
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| Clarke Carlisle on 10:40 - Feb 9 with 2250 views | JimmyRustler |
| Clarke Carlisle on 09:54 - Feb 9 by D_Alien |
Well I'm not going to disagree with much of what you and others say, because there's a lot of truth in it. What I'm trying to explain is the profession of psychiatry uses the term "the self" in a way which allows for the act of suicide to be correctly described as selfish.
I've tried to give the example of how this differs from a trivial use of "selfish" as in a selfish child or whatever, but it's just not being understood. So without going into the realms of psychopathology I'll leave it there, and maintain that my original post stands; it was posted in good faith and not without due consideration. |
I understand what you're saying but the thing is, the large majority don't possess the expertise that you seem to in this field.
There's nothing wrong with your post and tbh, you could have easily been playing devil's advocate as so many often do in instances like this (and rightly so as there are two sides to a coin).
All technicalities aside though, it's very difficult to label suicide as a selfish act although, as you rightly say and as I am acutely aware, it is generally labelled as that within the medical profession.
My friend's a psychiatric nurse (which I understand to be pretty similar to your line of work) and I've had some interesting discussions with him regarding this very subject of the last year or so. It seems almost maniacal to say that I find it interesting and enjoying talking about it but there you go, we're all fooked up in some way or another. | | | |
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