| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. 11:09 - Sep 16 with 3203 views | A_Fans_Dad |
Do you consider this good or bad news? |  | | |  |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 11:14 - Sep 17 with 976 views | Highjack |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 22:31 - Sep 16 by Kilkennyjack |
If only energy could be stored, you know like in a battery ... |
The problem with our increasing reliance on batteries as you probably know is that they rely on lithium which will eventually run out with increased demand. Although I did read they are making good progress with hydrogen based batteries which would solve all our problems, hydrogen is the future, especially when it comes to fusion technology. |  |
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| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 14:07 - Sep 17 with 963 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 10:40 - Sep 17 by Catullus |
Yes but we'd need some pretty large spending to build that infrastructure.
Is the answer in using all the eco friendly methods but keeping a smaller nuclear back up capacity to boost the grid at peak demand?
If we have seen a permanent move to more working from home, what difference will that make? I don't see how we can move to green supplies and go fully electric with cars? Won't the demand be just too much? Will it only be doable with increased working from home so not the demand for cars or offices?
AFD is very dismissive of the eco solutions but the sun is there all day, the tides are twice a day without fail, the wind will blow we just need better wind turbines which no doubt will come one day, turbines that can work in stronger wind speeds. Batteries will improve so storgae will too. 95% of stored energy is the hydro model you mentioned. Wales needs to invest in this.
https://www.discovermagazine.c
Now this will be good news for Kilk and his ilk, if we had a better Welsh government, one that can see further than the end of it's nose and works for the people more and less for itself (which is a global problem with politicians) we might just be indy capable. But that battle needs fighting now, the Senedd/WAG/WP/WG or whtever you want to call it needs to start this move sooner rather than later. We need to get ahead of the game.
I'm fed up of the Senedd always blaming Westminster, even if it is partly true. Take responsibility where we can and do something to build for the future. Wales must petition Westminster to have more control over it's own energy supply, a modern far thinking model would not only be good for Wales but good for the rest of the Uk, even if we went indy we would still sell to England. |
Is this the same person who advocates so strongly for ecology, suggesting that we drown more Welsh valleys to use as backup power.
At least you had the sense to talk nuclear, which is the obvious answer if you want to reduce emissions.
Dinorwig has a capacity of 1,728-megawatt and can supply 9.1 GWh of electricity, so it backs up practically the total of the UK's Wind Power for 1 hour or Solar power for an hour and a half.
So it is roughly the equivelent 17 Tesla batteries in capacity but 47 batteries worth of output. | | | |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 14:22 - Sep 17 with 956 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 22:31 - Sep 16 by Kilkennyjack |
If only energy could be stored, you know like in a battery ... |
I am glad you asked the question.
I am sorry that this post is so long but the impracticallities of using Batteries as backup for wind, solar and tidal energy is a serious matter
So let's start with the basics, Elon Musks Bloody Big Battery (BBB) installed in Australia is 100Mw and cost £80Million and can provide 129Mwh. ie 129Mw for an hour.
see
https://greycellsenergy.com/ex
ps it is not used as backup power but to stabalise their Grid, which is only unstable due to their reliance on wind and interconnectors.
Now let's look at your favourite the Swansea Lagoon project.
It is a 320Mw generator which will supply 155,000 homes and costs about £1Billion and Mr Shorrocks wanted a subsidized price of £160/Mw, 4 times the price of current electricity, which by the way would kill off any heavy industry if they had to buy it..
see
http://www.tidallagoonpower.co
In 2018 there were about 128,000 homes in Swansea, so the Lagoon can supply them, but what about the businesses, factories and shops?
Businesses usually run 8am to 5pm, factories can be from 8am to 5pm, 6am to 10pm or 24 hours, shops can be any time up to 24 hours.
Like homes, businesses and shops use 240V, mostly for lights & computers, factories and garages etc use 400V for their machines.
But shops have display coolers, fridges & freezers that run 24/7/365, in the case of the likes of Tesco there are lots of them anywhere between 10 and 50, plus they have freezer storage in their food storage areas.
So it is possible, but not likely that the Lagoon could power the whole of Swansea, but let's assume that it could.
The Lagoon can only produce electricity at 320Mw when it has enough water flowing through at incoming tide and if the generator blades are reversible outgoing tide. Which is twice per day.
When it is high tide and low tide there is no production at all. so we have 4 periods of production and 4 probably shorter periods of no production.
When there is no production our Tesla backup has to supply the shortfall, but we need 3 £80M batteries to get 320Mws.
But they only last for an hour, so we will have to have double that to cover 2 hours of none production. So 6 batteries at £80M each. Batteries being constantly charged and discharged do not last very long, so they will probably need replacing about every 10 years.
We have 3 states of electical load daytime, peak and nighttime, however tide times change all the time, so they will not fit with peak times, but we have to hope that the Combination of Lagoon and batteries can cover those.
This sounds feasible if very, very expensive, too expensive electrical unit wise because places like Tata are on the brink of going under because of their massive energy bills at our current prices, so only good for homes and perhaps shops.
But we have a small problem, with the Lagoon just about meeting the requirements for homes and shops when are we going to be able to recharge the 6 batteris that have been run dry covering the high/low periods, because they will take the total output+ to recharge them?
What is going to supply the homes & shops during the day, well we can get some energy at night when the load is lower, but that assumes the tides will accomodate that, but not during the day.
Would it help if we had 4 times as many batteries, so that they each low/high tide didn't drain them completely?
Not really, because whatever way you look at it you still need 300Mw of "spare" capacity 4 times every day.
What that practically means is that the Lagoon can't actually provide the power for all of the homes and shops in Swansea if it relies on Battery backup, you would need to split it's output between supply and recharge.
Now let's consider Wind Turbines, let's replace the Lagoon with a wind farm. The latest huge Turbines are over 220 metres high and have a nameplate capacity of 14Mw.
So 300Mw/14Mw = 21 turbines, except of course they rarely reach nameplate output, they are actually rated on average at 40% capacity for offshore use.
So it is actully 300Mw/6Mw = 50 turbines to guarantee an average of 300Mw. Remember that is an average.
Quite a large wind farm.
But unfortunately when the wind doesn't blow with sufficient strength these turbines can produce virtually no Mws at all.
As they did all over the UK on Monday night and atmospheric highs can get stalled over the UK for up to a wek at a time especially in the Winter.
So, let's just take 1 day with only 10% output that is a shortfall of 270mw for 24 hours, so we now need 3 Tesla batteries for each of those hours, 72 tesla batteries at £80M each for one day, 500 for a week.
Luckily when the wind starts blowing again they can recharge them all quite quickly can't they, well they can if they reach full output, in fact there will be plenty of spare capacity.
But if they don't then they can't because the electricity is needed to power our houses shops and businesses, they can recharge them a bit at night as long as another high doesn't come along and the wind doesn't drop.
Again this just for Swansea.
And this is just Swansea City and no Industry.
For current wind, solar and biomass generation see
https://gridwatch.org.uk/
Also compare the cost and output of the Batteries to the peaker gas plant project that was mentioned on a previous post. | | | |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 14:46 - Sep 17 with 949 views | Catullus |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 14:07 - Sep 17 by A_Fans_Dad |
Is this the same person who advocates so strongly for ecology, suggesting that we drown more Welsh valleys to use as backup power.
At least you had the sense to talk nuclear, which is the obvious answer if you want to reduce emissions.
Dinorwig has a capacity of 1,728-megawatt and can supply 9.1 GWh of electricity, so it backs up practically the total of the UK's Wind Power for 1 hour or Solar power for an hour and a half.
So it is roughly the equivelent 17 Tesla batteries in capacity but 47 batteries worth of output. |
Where did I suggest flooding a valley? Don't be ridiculous. Wales has plenty of space to build reservoirs without pulling a 'Tryweryn' and the reservoirs themselves can provide habitat for a lot of creatures, they just need to be designed built and run properly. A reservoir is far more econ friendly than a nuclear plant though obviously we'd still need the back up.
It's a combination of supply not a dependency on one means, and of course there is always a new idea, new tach,
https://www.theguardian.com/en
It also comes down to personal responsibility for individuals. We need to look at our habits and do what we can to conserve power, it's quite literally a case of every little helps. | |
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| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 16:11 - Sep 17 with 932 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 14:46 - Sep 17 by Catullus |
Where did I suggest flooding a valley? Don't be ridiculous. Wales has plenty of space to build reservoirs without pulling a 'Tryweryn' and the reservoirs themselves can provide habitat for a lot of creatures, they just need to be designed built and run properly. A reservoir is far more econ friendly than a nuclear plant though obviously we'd still need the back up.
It's a combination of supply not a dependency on one means, and of course there is always a new idea, new tach,
https://www.theguardian.com/en
It also comes down to personal responsibility for individuals. We need to look at our habits and do what we can to conserve power, it's quite literally a case of every little helps. |
Well Dinorwig used an area that had already been destroyed by a Slate Quarry and then repurposed.
It was a brilliant scheme which payed for itself in 2 years.
Try getting another one like it past the green brigade and see how far you get, I am sure that they will find a frog, newt, fish or something to stop it.
Ask Scotia for advice.
I don't think a "reservoir" with amenities would like to be drained in 24 hours when the backup was required.
As to the Guardian story about the Swedish road, knowing how long road works take in the UK, we can't even get all our pot holes fixed, how long do you think it would take dig up the middle of motorways and "A" roads in the UK? And how much would it cost?
Personal habits and responsibility, now you are talking, I have recycled since recycling in Swansea became available.
I have conserved energy from day one, never leave lights on, never run the heating when not in the house.
Fitted double glazing, Rock Wool wall & loft insulation back in 1987.
Despite pre covid-19 going to the shops 3 times a week I pay a milkman to deliver my milk in Glass bottles, a) because they are really recycled, unlike plastic and b) to keep the poor guy in a job.
I keep pieces of wood, metal and screws for later use etc.
I drive a <1 litre car.
You seem to forget that at my age I came from the period of real austerity directly after WW2.
So don't lecture me about conserving anything. [Post edited 17 Sep 2020 16:13]
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| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 16:44 - Sep 17 with 926 views | Catullus |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 16:11 - Sep 17 by A_Fans_Dad |
Well Dinorwig used an area that had already been destroyed by a Slate Quarry and then repurposed.
It was a brilliant scheme which payed for itself in 2 years.
Try getting another one like it past the green brigade and see how far you get, I am sure that they will find a frog, newt, fish or something to stop it.
Ask Scotia for advice.
I don't think a "reservoir" with amenities would like to be drained in 24 hours when the backup was required.
As to the Guardian story about the Swedish road, knowing how long road works take in the UK, we can't even get all our pot holes fixed, how long do you think it would take dig up the middle of motorways and "A" roads in the UK? And how much would it cost?
Personal habits and responsibility, now you are talking, I have recycled since recycling in Swansea became available.
I have conserved energy from day one, never leave lights on, never run the heating when not in the house.
Fitted double glazing, Rock Wool wall & loft insulation back in 1987.
Despite pre covid-19 going to the shops 3 times a week I pay a milkman to deliver my milk in Glass bottles, a) because they are really recycled, unlike plastic and b) to keep the poor guy in a job.
I keep pieces of wood, metal and screws for later use etc.
I drive a <1 litre car.
You seem to forget that at my age I came from the period of real austerity directly after WW2.
So don't lecture me about conserving anything. [Post edited 17 Sep 2020 16:13]
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Yes, you come from that age yet you are denying the changes we need to make for a better future.
As it goes we recycle, we keep things just like you. Our shed is full of tubs of screws and odds and sods.
I'm not sure finding a frog, newt or a fish would stop a reservoir? Surely the land would already be a tad wet? | |
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| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 16:53 - Sep 17 with 924 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 16:44 - Sep 17 by Catullus |
Yes, you come from that age yet you are denying the changes we need to make for a better future.
As it goes we recycle, we keep things just like you. Our shed is full of tubs of screws and odds and sods.
I'm not sure finding a frog, newt or a fish would stop a reservoir? Surely the land would already be a tad wet? |
Reservoirs.
Tell that the Californians.
I don't believe in those changes other than actual pollution, which does not include CO2.
Green energy minerals and metals create some of the worst pollution in the world, but it doesn't count cos it's green innit. | | | |
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| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 20:58 - Sep 17 with 901 views | Kilkennyjack |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 10:40 - Sep 17 by Catullus |
Yes but we'd need some pretty large spending to build that infrastructure.
Is the answer in using all the eco friendly methods but keeping a smaller nuclear back up capacity to boost the grid at peak demand?
If we have seen a permanent move to more working from home, what difference will that make? I don't see how we can move to green supplies and go fully electric with cars? Won't the demand be just too much? Will it only be doable with increased working from home so not the demand for cars or offices?
AFD is very dismissive of the eco solutions but the sun is there all day, the tides are twice a day without fail, the wind will blow we just need better wind turbines which no doubt will come one day, turbines that can work in stronger wind speeds. Batteries will improve so storgae will too. 95% of stored energy is the hydro model you mentioned. Wales needs to invest in this.
https://www.discovermagazine.c
Now this will be good news for Kilk and his ilk, if we had a better Welsh government, one that can see further than the end of it's nose and works for the people more and less for itself (which is a global problem with politicians) we might just be indy capable. But that battle needs fighting now, the Senedd/WAG/WP/WG or whtever you want to call it needs to start this move sooner rather than later. We need to get ahead of the game.
I'm fed up of the Senedd always blaming Westminster, even if it is partly true. Take responsibility where we can and do something to build for the future. Wales must petition Westminster to have more control over it's own energy supply, a modern far thinking model would not only be good for Wales but good for the rest of the Uk, even if we went indy we would still sell to England. |
Agreed.
I’r gad brawd .. ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 12:39 - Sep 18 with 876 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 16:44 - Sep 17 by Catullus |
Yes, you come from that age yet you are denying the changes we need to make for a better future.
As it goes we recycle, we keep things just like you. Our shed is full of tubs of screws and odds and sods.
I'm not sure finding a frog, newt or a fish would stop a reservoir? Surely the land would already be a tad wet? |
"I'm not sure finding a frog, newt or a fish would stop a reservoir? Surely the land would already be a tad wet? "
You think.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/ca | | | |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 22:27 - Sep 20 with 831 views | Scotia |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 12:39 - Sep 18 by A_Fans_Dad |
"I'm not sure finding a frog, newt or a fish would stop a reservoir? Surely the land would already be a tad wet? "
You think.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/ca |
Surely that is habitat destruction, thereby proving the point of the living planet report? | | | |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 11:17 - Sep 21 with 812 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| So no Nuclear Power Station for Wales. on 22:27 - Sep 20 by Scotia |
Surely that is habitat destruction, thereby proving the point of the living planet report? |
How can it possibly be habitat destruction when it hasn't been allowed.
I wouldn't care if it did make the point of the living planet report, when ecologists put the lives of a few fish before those of millions of people, especially a fish that is dying out anyway there is something wrong with them. | | | |
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