| War graves scandal 11:00 - Apr 23 with 1925 views | Catullus |
I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised yet I was. It never occurred to me that non white soldiers would be diregarded like this.
Apparently Churchill described non white soldiers as semi savage and basically not worth the expense.
https://www.leicestermercury.c
https://www.theguardian.com/wo
This country doesn't deserve the loyalty it still gets from the Commonwealth,there's an Oxymoron for you too "Commonwealth" when all it was, was a vehicle for the rich and powerful to take more wealth away from the common and hoard it amongst themselves. |  |
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| War graves scandal on 10:41 - Apr 26 with 485 views | Lohengrin |
Just as an afterthought David Olusoga poses the question in the OP’s link ” what action would it be putting in place this morning, if it had learned that 100,000 white soldiers on the western front had been left in the ground with no memorial or left in mass graves?”
Well, 100,000 white soldiers are in a mass grave in the German Cemetery at Langemark. I’m sure a few of the members on here have been there and seen it.
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| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| War graves scandal on 10:48 - Apr 26 with 473 views | Catullus |
| War graves scandal on 10:33 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
I’ve only just noticed this thread so I’ll chip in and shed a bit of light on what it is they’re talking about. Theses aren’t ‘the war dead’ as we usually think of them, they hadn’t succumbed to wounds, they had fallen victim for the most part to Spanish Flu, malaria and the like.
The Native Labour Corps were recruited en masse but not in anything like the way county battalions were here or in the Dominions. These were the field-bearers of the East African campaign, the stevedores of colonial docks and the Chinamen shipped to Europe to lay sleepers for the vast network of railways constructed to supply the Somme and Ypres fronts.
Manual labourers mostly, if not wholly illiterate. Often without a word of English it’s doubtful such records as exist reveal who or even how many of them there were. You can just imagine long lines of volunteers being inspected by a Divisional MO:
‘Stick your tongue out. Right-o, cough please.
A strong lad, Sergeant. Wave him through.’
And that would have been that. For properly constituted military units such as the Indian Division the records were meticulous and the commemorations elaborate. I’ve seen the Indian memorial at Neuve Chappelle and it’s beautiful.
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Isn't it the case though, these "labourers" were seen as not fit to be in a properly constituted militarty unit. They were second class citizens and treated largely with contempt, only fit for manual lablour.
Either way, they helped in the war efort, they worked and died and deserved better.
Take any "properly constituted military unit" and find the name of someone who died of illness rather than injury sustained in battle, did they not bury them with respect and dignity, did they not treat them as war dead?
The African and Caribbean war memorial was only installed in 2017, in Windrush Square in Brixton. | |
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| War graves scandal on 10:58 - Apr 26 with 471 views | Lohengrin |
| War graves scandal on 10:48 - Apr 26 by Catullus |
Isn't it the case though, these "labourers" were seen as not fit to be in a properly constituted militarty unit. They were second class citizens and treated largely with contempt, only fit for manual lablour.
Either way, they helped in the war efort, they worked and died and deserved better.
Take any "properly constituted military unit" and find the name of someone who died of illness rather than injury sustained in battle, did they not bury them with respect and dignity, did they not treat them as war dead?
The African and Caribbean war memorial was only installed in 2017, in Windrush Square in Brixton. |
They simply weren’t regarded as ‘soldiers,’ Cat.
Certainly they were contributing to the war effort but I think more in the way a docker in Briton Ferry, a collier in Crynant or one of the girls in Resolven machining fuse caps was contributing, that’s to say in a purely non-combatant role. Spanish Flu would have claimed more than a few of those but I wouldn’t expect them to appear on the Memorial Gates. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| War graves scandal on 11:07 - Apr 26 with 461 views | Catullus |
| War graves scandal on 10:41 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
Just as an afterthought David Olusoga poses the question in the OP’s link ” what action would it be putting in place this morning, if it had learned that 100,000 white soldiers on the western front had been left in the ground with no memorial or left in mass graves?”
Well, 100,000 white soldiers are in a mass grave in the German Cemetery at Langemark. I’m sure a few of the members on here have been there and seen it.
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This place?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
It's not 100k but the numbers don't really matter. The truth is Loh, back then the "upper classes" regarded the infantry men as only a bit better than the non whites. We were all something they'd stepped in and needed scraping off.
Even today some of these upper class people still regard us with disdain, like Prince Edward when he calls us "Grockles" (I think it was) which he used to quite often do. I suspect the Queen has had words there though. | |
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| War graves scandal on 11:26 - Apr 26 with 454 views | Lohengrin |
| War graves scandal on 11:07 - Apr 26 by Catullus |
This place?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
It's not 100k but the numbers don't really matter. The truth is Loh, back then the "upper classes" regarded the infantry men as only a bit better than the non whites. We were all something they'd stepped in and needed scraping off.
Even today some of these upper class people still regard us with disdain, like Prince Edward when he calls us "Grockles" (I think it was) which he used to quite often do. I suspect the Queen has had words there though. |
There’s an ossuary beneath Langemark containing incomplete remains, often barely partial, that would nudge that numbers up to somewhere around the total I suggested. Testament to both the horror of the Great War and the brutal effectiveness of massed artillery, Cat.
That attitude you restate, the ‘lions led by donkeys’ line is something of a myth that came into vogue during the ‘60s, a time of opposition to the Vietnam War and militarism generally. There’s been nothing in the hundreds of memoirs I’ve read, and it’s at least that, to bear it out. What you’ll find is shared danger and the weight of personal responsibility.
Six weeks. That was the life expectancy for front-line officers in The Great War. Can you imagine! | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| War graves scandal on 11:37 - Apr 26 with 448 views | Catullus |
| War graves scandal on 11:26 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
There’s an ossuary beneath Langemark containing incomplete remains, often barely partial, that would nudge that numbers up to somewhere around the total I suggested. Testament to both the horror of the Great War and the brutal effectiveness of massed artillery, Cat.
That attitude you restate, the ‘lions led by donkeys’ line is something of a myth that came into vogue during the ‘60s, a time of opposition to the Vietnam War and militarism generally. There’s been nothing in the hundreds of memoirs I’ve read, and it’s at least that, to bear it out. What you’ll find is shared danger and the weight of personal responsibility.
Six weeks. That was the life expectancy for front-line officers in The Great War. Can you imagine! |
I tend to think of the lions as those in the trenches and the donkeys as the generals who kept sending them over the top to be slaughtered. The generals back then certainly saw the infantry as expendable.
These days of course the armed forces is a very different world. They don't want dumb, unthinking drones, Service personnel today need to be much better in some ways, even if just to handle the tech they use.
Of course they still need some of the same qualities as the brave men and women who served throughout history.
My grandfather had a worse education than me but I will always say he was a far better man than me. Royal Marine commando, fought in and survived some of the biggest battles, came home and just got on with his life. I find it very humbling to think about which I think is why I get very...worked up shall we say, when I see something I regard as unfair. Not all historical wrongs can be righted, but those that can be, should be. | |
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| War graves scandal on 11:58 - Apr 26 with 443 views | Lohengrin |
| War graves scandal on 11:37 - Apr 26 by Catullus |
I tend to think of the lions as those in the trenches and the donkeys as the generals who kept sending them over the top to be slaughtered. The generals back then certainly saw the infantry as expendable.
These days of course the armed forces is a very different world. They don't want dumb, unthinking drones, Service personnel today need to be much better in some ways, even if just to handle the tech they use.
Of course they still need some of the same qualities as the brave men and women who served throughout history.
My grandfather had a worse education than me but I will always say he was a far better man than me. Royal Marine commando, fought in and survived some of the biggest battles, came home and just got on with his life. I find it very humbling to think about which I think is why I get very...worked up shall we say, when I see something I regard as unfair. Not all historical wrongs can be righted, but those that can be, should be. |
Looking back it’s easy to clearly see many of the glaring errors in judgement exercised by the General Staff of all the armies on the Western Front and hindsight provides us with the sort of whole picture they never had. We often forget that this wasn’t just the First World War but a war of ‘Firsts.’ There was no precedent to guide planning, nobody had ever imagined let alone seen anything like it.
Tactics did adapt, but the lessons learned were at unimaginable cost. Mind-numbing. I don’t think the charge of indifference stands up either. We know that senior officers were aghast at what was unfolding, and those they sent ‘over the top’ often included their own sons.
J B Priestly described The Great War as ”that jagged crack across the mirror of the twentieth century.” That’s perfect. It inevitably draws our attention looking back. We pass its memorials every time we drive to work, it’s our national trauma. It left barely a household untouched. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| War graves scandal on 12:04 - Apr 26 with 436 views | onehunglow |
| War graves scandal on 11:58 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
Looking back it’s easy to clearly see many of the glaring errors in judgement exercised by the General Staff of all the armies on the Western Front and hindsight provides us with the sort of whole picture they never had. We often forget that this wasn’t just the First World War but a war of ‘Firsts.’ There was no precedent to guide planning, nobody had ever imagined let alone seen anything like it.
Tactics did adapt, but the lessons learned were at unimaginable cost. Mind-numbing. I don’t think the charge of indifference stands up either. We know that senior officers were aghast at what was unfolding, and those they sent ‘over the top’ often included their own sons.
J B Priestly described The Great War as ”that jagged crack across the mirror of the twentieth century.” That’s perfect. It inevitably draws our attention looking back. We pass its memorials every time we drive to work, it’s our national trauma. It left barely a household untouched. |
Thanks for that Loh.Very thought provoking.Ive not seen that perpective before.Im struggling with that book I bought as recommended by you but that's because I have poor attention span thee days and get bored easily. | |
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| War graves scandal on 12:16 - Apr 26 with 433 views | Catullus |
| War graves scandal on 11:58 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
Looking back it’s easy to clearly see many of the glaring errors in judgement exercised by the General Staff of all the armies on the Western Front and hindsight provides us with the sort of whole picture they never had. We often forget that this wasn’t just the First World War but a war of ‘Firsts.’ There was no precedent to guide planning, nobody had ever imagined let alone seen anything like it.
Tactics did adapt, but the lessons learned were at unimaginable cost. Mind-numbing. I don’t think the charge of indifference stands up either. We know that senior officers were aghast at what was unfolding, and those they sent ‘over the top’ often included their own sons.
J B Priestly described The Great War as ”that jagged crack across the mirror of the twentieth century.” That’s perfect. It inevitably draws our attention looking back. We pass its memorials every time we drive to work, it’s our national trauma. It left barely a household untouched. |
I think part of the problem was still using tactics from a bygone age when technology made killing in huge numbers much easier.
Sending tropps over the top into the killing zones of German machine guns, they were very slow to learn that lesson.
Using an artillery barage to keep the Germans heads down but then not wending the troops over ASAP...again slow to learn. By the time the troops were up and over the German were back at their posts and lining up their targets.
Walking in an orderly fashion into a firestorm.
Sjo many of the greatest technological advances come during wars. Why do we seem to try so much harder when it's about killing people. | |
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| War graves scandal on 14:00 - Apr 26 with 407 views | londonlisa2001 |
| War graves scandal on 10:33 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
I’ve only just noticed this thread so I’ll chip in and shed a bit of light on what it is they’re talking about. Theses aren’t ‘the war dead’ as we usually think of them, they hadn’t succumbed to wounds, they had fallen victim for the most part to Spanish Flu, malaria and the like.
The Native Labour Corps were recruited en masse but not in anything like the way county battalions were here or in the Dominions. These were the field-bearers of the East African campaign, the stevedores of colonial docks and the Chinamen shipped to Europe to lay sleepers for the vast network of railways constructed to supply the Somme and Ypres fronts.
Manual labourers mostly, if not wholly illiterate. Often without a word of English it’s doubtful such records as exist reveal who or even how many of them there were. You can just imagine long lines of volunteers being inspected by a Divisional MO:
‘Stick your tongue out. Right-o, cough please.
A strong lad, Sergeant. Wave him through.’
And that would have been that. For properly constituted military units such as the Indian Division the records were meticulous and the commemorations elaborate. I’ve seen the Indian memorial at Neuve Chappelle and it’s beautiful.
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You are incorrect.
They are not talking only of malaria and Spanish flu victims.
“ The investigation also estimated that between 45,000 and 54,000 Asian and African casualties were “commemorated unequally”.
Specific examples of the inequality of treatment have been given.
“ This history of unequal commemoration is most starkly apparent at the CWGC cemetery at Voi in Kenya. Within its walls are the beautifully tended graves of white British soldiers who died in the little-known east Africa campaign. Outside the walls, along a busy road, lies a patch of scrubland. There, under a carpet of litter, lie the bodies of Africans who fought and died in the same campaign.”
It is inexcusable. | | | |
| War graves scandal on 18:15 - Apr 26 with 374 views | Lohengrin |
| War graves scandal on 13:54 - Apr 26 by londonlisa2001 |
You are misquoting him.
He didn’t say white soldiers had no ‘mass graves’ he said ‘ no memorial or left in mass graves, the sites of their mass graves had been built over or ignored, ’.
The picture you have posted as an example is hardly a mass grave that is ‘built over or ignored’. [Post edited 26 Apr 2021 14:01]
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That’s just patently absurd. The whole of north western France and Flanders is one vast necropolis. There are some 320,000 British and Dominion soldiers alone with no known grave, they still lay where they fell. Much of the old battlefields have indeed been built over, they had to be. The dead now rest beneath schools, roads and houses. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| War graves scandal on 18:20 - Apr 26 with 369 views | Lohengrin |
| War graves scandal on 14:00 - Apr 26 by londonlisa2001 |
You are incorrect.
They are not talking only of malaria and Spanish flu victims.
“ The investigation also estimated that between 45,000 and 54,000 Asian and African casualties were “commemorated unequally”.
Specific examples of the inequality of treatment have been given.
“ This history of unequal commemoration is most starkly apparent at the CWGC cemetery at Voi in Kenya. Within its walls are the beautifully tended graves of white British soldiers who died in the little-known east Africa campaign. Outside the walls, along a busy road, lies a patch of scrubland. There, under a carpet of litter, lie the bodies of Africans who fought and died in the same campaign.”
It is inexcusable. |
Not only but mostly about the Labour Corps, right?
The tenor of your post seems to suggest that members of units like The King’s African Rifles were unvalued, treated with contempt even? That flies in the face of every account I’ve ever read. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| War graves scandal on 18:21 - Apr 26 with 368 views | onehunglow |
| War graves scandal on 18:15 - Apr 26 by Lohengrin |
That’s just patently absurd. The whole of north western France and Flanders is one vast necropolis. There are some 320,000 British and Dominion soldiers alone with no known grave, they still lay where they fell. Much of the old battlefields have indeed been built over, they had to be. The dead now rest beneath schools, roads and houses. |
Any drive south from Calais is evidence enoug | |
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