| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture 07:03 - Aug 8 with 4939 views | PlanetHonneywood |
I always feel it inappropriate to ask people to do something you're not prepared or, unable to do, but here goes.
A while back, I recall BMX Ben met the great unwashed, and presented data to support the argument that QPR players were fit, healthy, and largely injury free. Which was generally pooh-poo'd and seen as fairy dust.
I suggested at the time that it might be useful to gather our own data going forward, so that we had something to counter future promulgation of data by the club that we thought, fanciful.
I say I wouldn't do it, as I'm not best placed. But certainly happy to help someone who might be adept at this sort of thing.
Thoughts?
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 07:05 - Aug 8 with 4218 views | Northernr |
I'll run some ideas around with Stats Andy today. |  | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 07:19 - Aug 8 with 4149 views | dmm |
It's a good idea, John. What would you do with the data? Hopefully there won't be a need to use it this season because of a low number of injuries, but if there is again a high number, the findings would need to be presented in a public setting for maximum effect. |  | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:18 - Aug 8 with 3951 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 07:05 - Aug 8 by Northernr |
I'll run some ideas around with Stats Andy today. |
Well we can start counting with Kolli! | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:26 - Aug 8 with 3900 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 07:19 - Aug 8 by dmm |
It's a good idea, John. What would you do with the data? Hopefully there won't be a need to use it this season because of a low number of injuries, but if there is again a high number, the findings would need to be presented in a public setting for maximum effect. |
I think you've largely answered your own question there, DMM.
As long as the methodology holds up, then it should be open source for general use on here as more definitive data, by Clive et al when interviewing the club, and countering that which may - hopefully not, of course - be advanced by the club in a fans forum to suggest we've not got an injury problem. | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:37 - Aug 8 with 3838 views | GaryBannister86 |
It's a great idea, but isn't the problem that someone outside the club gathering the data will never actually know what the injury is / why they are out and could always be countered by "contact injury" and "he was never going to play that match anyway" etc?
In other words, this whole thing comes about because of the dubious claims the club comes out with on occasion. Which I just don't understand, because although the truth may not be flattering, I bet it is a whole lot better than the speculation that arises otherwise. |  | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:46 - Aug 8 with 3778 views | Beckenhamhoop |
Are you going to obtain all the injury data from all the other Championship clubs as a comparison study? [Post edited 8 Aug 8:46]
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:49 - Aug 8 with 3749 views | Northernr |
Some good analysis on what happened last season and how it compares to other Champ teams in Andy’s end of season round up here (scroll down to player availability - conclusion, not great).
https://loftforwords.fansnetwo | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:53 - Aug 8 with 3726 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:37 - Aug 8 by GaryBannister86 |
It's a great idea, but isn't the problem that someone outside the club gathering the data will never actually know what the injury is / why they are out and could always be countered by "contact injury" and "he was never going to play that match anyway" etc?
In other words, this whole thing comes about because of the dubious claims the club comes out with on occasion. Which I just don't understand, because although the truth may not be flattering, I bet it is a whole lot better than the speculation that arises otherwise. |
Valid points.
However, the club has relied on its data and we've not had anything to counter with.
For me, you'd gather it all, regardless of causation, known or otherwise! It's possibly going to give us dara on our rehabing as well. For example, let's look at Poku: pulled up and was out (think it was his first game). So we didn't see him until x date, thus missing for x games. He returned and out again. Certainly raises a query about how we managed him.
We can start counting Kolli as of today. Now we don't know if there are 'other' factors at play with his injuries, but we'll see when he returns from a clear fitness/condition issue.
If we're really clever, then we can 'try' collate data on type of injuries; so if, say, 67.3% of player injuries are/appear due to hamstrings, we know where a key problem is.
Of course: data gathering methodology has to hold up, and we're dealing with a club who say neesh. So, it might show them that a North Korean policy on injuries, is plain daft. | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:57 - Aug 8 with 3702 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:46 - Aug 8 by Beckenhamhoop |
Are you going to obtain all the injury data from all the other Championship clubs as a comparison study? [Post edited 8 Aug 8:46]
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I would think for comparative purposes, you'd need something.
Didn't BMX Ben adduce such at the FF? If so, then maybe someone is already collating such data. | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:09 - Aug 8 with 3645 views | KensalT |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:49 - Aug 8 by Northernr |
Some good analysis on what happened last season and how it compares to other Champ teams in Andy’s end of season round up here (scroll down to player availability - conclusion, not great).
https://loftforwords.fansnetwo |
Some interesting numbers put together by Andrew there.
Problem is (as he admits himself) we don't have access to any official data so what we're left with is guesswork over why players are unavailable and subjectivity as to the value to the squad of any given player.
If the injury numbers look good using this method the club will point to it and say even LFW says we're improving. If the numbers are bad they will shrug it off as nonsense and Nourry supporters will become further entrenched in their belief that there is an unfair LFW agenda against Nourry.
It's an interesting idea and if Andrew is happy to put it together then I would certainly like to see it. But will it prove anything? Probably not! |  | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:12 - Aug 8 with 3629 views | derbyhoop |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:18 - Aug 8 by PlanetHonneywood |
Well we can start counting with Kolli! |
And Dembele and Obikwu. Saito missed a few as well.
Madsen may be back today after.missing 2.5 games in pre season.
Is Tylon Smith another? |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:22 - Aug 8 with 3590 views | terryb |
We would need to define availability.
My understanding of the club definition is that if all of the team & the subs are part of the first team squad, it is regarded as 100% for that game. The fact that no centre halves can play is an inconvenience, but it doesn't alter the percentage!
My definition would be that any player in the first team squad that can't play due to injury, should be counted against the percentage. I'm not sure how that caters for under 21's not named in the 25 man squad but are playing in the first team. | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:25 - Aug 8 with 3575 views | dmm |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:12 - Aug 8 by derbyhoop |
And Dembele and Obikwu. Saito missed a few as well.
Madsen may be back today after.missing 2.5 games in pre season.
Is Tylon Smith another? |
Tylon Smith hasn't been seen since travelling to Vienna. Should we call out a search party? | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:42 - Aug 8 with 3501 views | Beckenhamhoop |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:09 - Aug 8 by KensalT |
Some interesting numbers put together by Andrew there.
Problem is (as he admits himself) we don't have access to any official data so what we're left with is guesswork over why players are unavailable and subjectivity as to the value to the squad of any given player.
If the injury numbers look good using this method the club will point to it and say even LFW says we're improving. If the numbers are bad they will shrug it off as nonsense and Nourry supporters will become further entrenched in their belief that there is an unfair LFW agenda against Nourry.
It's an interesting idea and if Andrew is happy to put it together then I would certainly like to see it. But will it prove anything? Probably not! |
As is often the way with statistics, if you can pull out some numbers that go some way to prove your pre existing bias then it will all have been worthwhile. | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:47 - Aug 8 with 3470 views | Maggsinho |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 07:19 - Aug 8 by dmm |
It's a good idea, John. What would you do with the data? Hopefully there won't be a need to use it this season because of a low number of injuries, but if there is again a high number, the findings would need to be presented in a public setting for maximum effect. |
You could print a giant spreadsheet out and hang it from Ellerslie Road. |  | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:47 - Aug 8 with 3470 views | Stainrod |
Its a good idea.
I think you would calculate it simply on availability (you probably cant go into cause because there is insufficient information). What you are trying to measure is player unavailability for any reason other than suspension/ being very clearly out of favour.
The difficulty comes I guess in fringe players - eg if Ronnie, Ilias or Nico, for example, are not playing then we can probably safely assume they are injured.
But if Adamson is not in the match day squad, for example, then perhaps you just have to give the club a free pass and assume he was fit but not selected. If you have then been generous to the club on that assumption, its harder for them to dispute our numbers.
I'm no expert but from what little I understand the difference between the club stats and our own basic bullsh*t test is there is a massive qualitive difference between, say, Ruman Burrell and Tylon Smith being injured. An injury to Ruman has to be somehow weighted. Besides, Tylon is far less likely to be injured because he rarely plays competitive, senior matches.
Maybe you need to make some working assumptions on who the 1st eleven is, or at least the 1st 18? | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:53 - Aug 8 with 3437 views | KensalT |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:42 - Aug 8 by Beckenhamhoop |
As is often the way with statistics, if you can pull out some numbers that go some way to prove your pre existing bias then it will all have been worthwhile. |
Which is exactly what the club was doing with it's numbers.
I don't think there is any reason to believe Andrew's data was biased. And it does provide an interesting challenge to what the club has been putting out.
I just don't think the publicly available data is strong enough to prove anything.
If the club wants to use data to inform the fans then it should do so honestly, stating clearly how the data was obtained and what processes have been performed on it.
Throwing out numbers with no explanation as to how they were arrived at or what they really mean but which don't pass they eye test is what fosters suspicion in the first place. | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:02 - Aug 8 with 3393 views | Maggsinho |
I don’t see how this work in practice. How are you defining availability?
Is it players in the squad? Is it players in training? Is it players who are fit enough for eg running or work in the gym but not fit enough to work with a ball or not yet match fit. How will you know if these players are at the training ground?
On the flip side, what about players who play through an injury? If someone plays with a pain killing injection do they count as injured, or available?
Are we including lack of availability due to concussion injuries mandated by the FA?
What about illness? If someone has tonsillitis and is ill for a week and misses three games do we include that?
Are we including contact injuries or purely muscle injuries? If someone gets booted into next week and breaks their leg do we hold the club to account for that? | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:02 - Aug 8 with 3391 views | numptydumpty |
So we are middle of the road with regards to availability but our issue is its key players that are out for lengthy periods.
1. BUYING QUALITY PLAYERS ON THE CHEAP AS INJURY PRONE
I would suggest the fact key players are out injured, is our best players that we bring in, are very decent, but as they could be said to be injury prone is why we have them, and not a club supposedly further up the food chain. Even this transfer window, we have brought in Lamptey and Kamara, who have hardly played any games in recent times.
2. MANAGING PLAYERS AS INDIVIDUALS
So, its more about how we manage key players so, in the way they train and play, that they dont exacerbate injuries that they are more liable to pick up than others. Hence, where I thought was the reason for having Kevin Betsy, as the individual development coach, ie focusing entirely on the best plans to implement for individual players. I know Betsy does not have that role now. But realistically as fans despite it being a "gotcha" moment, when Ben Williams said "appreciate as fans you want to see your favourite players", change 'favourite' for "best" or "most effective", then his words were actually very relevant. From what I had seen also from seeing briefly how other fans react at their clubs, we are far from alone, in experiencing extreme numbers of unavailable players. I actually think as we clearly regularly take punts on quality players with these issues, with the hope, we can get key players out there for the longest possible periods achievable.
3. LACK OF TRANSPARENCY IN TERMS OF INJURY TYPE & LIKELY RETURN
Tbf though, I think the strategy that winds more fans up, is the lack of transparency and information made available with regards to actual dates likely to return to first team action. We have been told sometimes, this is not possible, but the time lengths said, when we are told they likely be available and then its two more months before we see the player. Appreciate players have setbacks, but it happens too often, to be a coincidence for me. I don't buy the reasoning also, of giving away competitive advantage, so if a player coming back, the opposition can plan for it. It has some merit, but I think keeping the fans informed and not shall we say a "bending of the truth", its hard to not feel frustration at smoke screen information.
4. TAKING ACCOUNT OF PLAYERS DIFFERENT CHARACTER TYPES
I do think also, although perhaps a little controversial, players personalities and character has to be taken into account. Some players fight for every minute and others may have less motivations for a whole variety of different reasons, as discussed on here, ad infinitum.
What i would say, "fatal last words", blame me when Madsen, Kone, Vale, Poku and Edwards all get carried off today, but this season start, we have the most availability of players, we have had for many seasons. Last season, half our players were carrying injuries and the other half, many of them were said to only be at one hundred percent capacity at the end of August. If Ben Williams and the performance team turn things around this season, then all well and good, we all love those that go from, in our eyes, the worst performing employees to the best a la Madsen.
If some on here, can access databases to analyse this too, all well and good PH. I think though there are a few different factors to consider with all of this too. Let's see. This is an extremely important element of our season that has to be substantially improved. Fingers firmly crossed. [Post edited 8 Aug 10:10]
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:20 - Aug 8 with 3307 views | Beckenhamhoop |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 08:49 - Aug 8 by Northernr |
Some good analysis on what happened last season and how it compares to other Champ teams in Andy’s end of season round up here (scroll down to player availability - conclusion, not great).
https://loftforwords.fansnetwo |
Being 14th out of 24 for player availability is average. When you consider that this data also includes non injury related absences it renders it pretty meaningless.
Regarding the second league table concerning a players value to the team, are we to criticise the medical team more because, out of two injured players, one happens to be better than the other? Of course not. As Andrew Scher stated, and has already been mentioned on this thread, this ‘analysis’ is really a non starter due to a lack of source data. | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:21 - Aug 8 with 3300 views | Beckenhamhoop |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 09:53 - Aug 8 by KensalT |
Which is exactly what the club was doing with it's numbers.
I don't think there is any reason to believe Andrew's data was biased. And it does provide an interesting challenge to what the club has been putting out.
I just don't think the publicly available data is strong enough to prove anything.
If the club wants to use data to inform the fans then it should do so honestly, stating clearly how the data was obtained and what processes have been performed on it.
Throwing out numbers with no explanation as to how they were arrived at or what they really mean but which don't pass they eye test is what fosters suspicion in the first place. |
I completely agree and I haven’t accused Andrew’s analysis of being biased at all. | |
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:24 - Aug 8 with 3291 views | Northernr |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:21 - Aug 8 by Beckenhamhoop |
I completely agree and I haven’t accused Andrew’s analysis of being biased at all. |
Errrrr  | | | |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:42 - Aug 8 with 3187 views | kernowhoop |
Having our own figures (albeit they would always be subject to challenge) no doubt would make us feel better.
But, we would feel better still if management of the players' fitness and their injuries was not an issue in the first place.
The question we have to ask is whether the fans' highlighting an injury/fitness problem would prompt action within the club to check out players more carefully before they buy them and/or change the personnel responsible for fitness or the procedures that they have adopted.
Would the powers-that-be say to the agitating fans 'Thank you very much for your helpful statistics. Having read them, we are going to make some changes' ?
Hmmm. [Post edited 8 Aug 10:59]
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| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:51 - Aug 8 with 3139 views | KensalT |
| QPR Injury Counting/Data Capture on 10:21 - Aug 8 by Beckenhamhoop |
I completely agree and I haven’t accused Andrew’s analysis of being biased at all. |
If you go back and look at what you wrote about pre-existing biases and cherry-picking data, and consider the context of what you were replying to then I think it could reasonably be interpreted as you having a pop at Andrew's motives and integrity.
But if you are saying it is me who has misunderstood your meaning and that wasn't what you meant at all then fair enough, I will believe you.
I'm sure Andrew will be relieved that his reputation is intact. | | | |
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