| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night 09:42 - Mar 18 with 13210 views | johnlangy |
Excellent. |  | | |  |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:37 - Mar 19 with 1415 views | trampie |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 14:29 - Mar 19 by jacabertawe |
"Then there is the chippy, anti everything, screw those who have done well for themselves, bring everything down to the lowest possible common denominator and let 'the rich' pay for it type left of centre."
Oh, please. You have let yourself down very badly with that nonsense. |
Yes i'm afraid Londonlisa has let herself down very badly with those comments jacabertawe, sad but there you go. |  |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:41 - Mar 19 with 1415 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:34 - Mar 19 by trampie |
The old Celtic occupied territories is not sh*t mun, Wales deserves what is fair and if that includes reparations to get modern Wales up to a fair level then so be it.
Nothing wrong with Ingurland or its people, I like Frank Lampard as a footballer and Cherie Lunghi as an actress.
And you can be as Welsh as you like Lisa. |
no one said it was.
Perhaps everyone in Wales could get 40 acres and a mule ?
And if you think that, then stop making snide comments about 'living in London' and what that does or doesn't imply about people's attitudes ? | | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:42 - Mar 19 with 1412 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:37 - Mar 19 by trampie |
Yes i'm afraid Londonlisa has let herself down very badly with those comments jacabertawe, sad but there you go. |
oh well, I think you've let yourself down very badly by making a series of factually inaccurate statements.
Let's call it quits eh? | | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:51 - Mar 19 with 1394 views | trampie |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:41 - Mar 19 by londonlisa2001 |
no one said it was.
Perhaps everyone in Wales could get 40 acres and a mule ?
And if you think that, then stop making snide comments about 'living in London' and what that does or doesn't imply about people's attitudes ? |
You used the words 'England is sh*t', in this thread, I only responded to your comments.
Many in my location already have their land and mules. [Post edited 19 Mar 2015 15:52]
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:55 - Mar 19 with 1388 views | trampie |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 15:42 - Mar 19 by londonlisa2001 |
oh well, I think you've let yourself down very badly by making a series of factually inaccurate statements.
Let's call it quits eh? |
What factual inaccuracies ?
And as regards you, you have made observations that has been challenged by other posters as well as myself. [Post edited 19 Mar 2015 16:04]
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 16:23 - Mar 19 with 1374 views | jacksfullaces |
she might come across as valleys left but seems to have some of the whitchurch village champagne socialists on the books too. i think her appeal is broader than you might think.
with the complete betrayal by the lib dems at the last election, a worthwhile radical/protest vote party - as my vote is only every likely to be a protest vote in the first past the post sytem. | | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 16:53 - Mar 19 with 1360 views | DafyddHuw |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 13:24 - Mar 18 by Lohengrin |
Too much to remember? I can probably help you out there. "We are a socialist party." "If push came to shove I'd vote Labour."
Arglwydd, sut oedd yn dod i hyn?  |
Lord, how coming to this? |  | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 17:29 - Mar 19 with 1332 views | johnlangy |
Good to see a pretty good debate going on, only now descending into the personal. Pity. I watched the programme again and this is the basics of what she said.
1 - She wants Wales to have a similar deal to Scotland in terms of finance and devolved powers.
2 - She briefly referenced Thatcher and what happened to Welsh industry in the 80's. Nothing wrong with that. It's hardly harking back into history.
3 - English parliament yes, federalism no.
4 - Tuition fees. She said if Wales was funded fairly we'd have enough to be able to scrap them entirely (implying that she would).
5 - Living wage for everyone. Better deal for youngsters who get paid less than the minimum wage (is that under 21 ?). Also apprentices better paid.
6 - She also said full employment but then said every young person leaving school should have a training place, a job or a place in Uni.
7 - Voting age 16.
8 - Plaid has socialist aims so is a socialist party.
9 - Drugs legislation should be reformed.
10 - Give up nuclear deterrent, Scrap Trident. We should have an appropriate defence system for the threat we face.
11 - There is a battle going on against austerity. Many parties across Europe are fighting that battle. Referenced the wake of WWII when, instead of austerity we invested our way out of the situation resulting in the 'never had it so good' years of the next couple of decades.
The above may not be what the founding fathers of Plaid's stated aims were a century ago but I don't care. I imagine the same could be said of any party if you go back 100 years but this is a different world.
What I care about is what's being said now and I can't argue against much of the above. | | | |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 19:16 - Mar 19 with 1309 views | blaenaugwentjack |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 17:29 - Mar 19 by johnlangy |
Good to see a pretty good debate going on, only now descending into the personal. Pity. I watched the programme again and this is the basics of what she said.
1 - She wants Wales to have a similar deal to Scotland in terms of finance and devolved powers.
2 - She briefly referenced Thatcher and what happened to Welsh industry in the 80's. Nothing wrong with that. It's hardly harking back into history.
3 - English parliament yes, federalism no.
4 - Tuition fees. She said if Wales was funded fairly we'd have enough to be able to scrap them entirely (implying that she would).
5 - Living wage for everyone. Better deal for youngsters who get paid less than the minimum wage (is that under 21 ?). Also apprentices better paid.
6 - She also said full employment but then said every young person leaving school should have a training place, a job or a place in Uni.
7 - Voting age 16.
8 - Plaid has socialist aims so is a socialist party.
9 - Drugs legislation should be reformed.
10 - Give up nuclear deterrent, Scrap Trident. We should have an appropriate defence system for the threat we face.
11 - There is a battle going on against austerity. Many parties across Europe are fighting that battle. Referenced the wake of WWII when, instead of austerity we invested our way out of the situation resulting in the 'never had it so good' years of the next couple of decades.
The above may not be what the founding fathers of Plaid's stated aims were a century ago but I don't care. I imagine the same could be said of any party if you go back 100 years but this is a different world.
What I care about is what's being said now and I can't argue against much of the above. |
Agree, pretty sensible stuff, i would a lot more to be put on the agenda but i guess small steps to start eh? | | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 16:56 - Mar 20 with 1258 views | Lohengrin |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 17:29 - Mar 19 by johnlangy |
Good to see a pretty good debate going on, only now descending into the personal. Pity. I watched the programme again and this is the basics of what she said.
1 - She wants Wales to have a similar deal to Scotland in terms of finance and devolved powers.
2 - She briefly referenced Thatcher and what happened to Welsh industry in the 80's. Nothing wrong with that. It's hardly harking back into history.
3 - English parliament yes, federalism no.
4 - Tuition fees. She said if Wales was funded fairly we'd have enough to be able to scrap them entirely (implying that she would).
5 - Living wage for everyone. Better deal for youngsters who get paid less than the minimum wage (is that under 21 ?). Also apprentices better paid.
6 - She also said full employment but then said every young person leaving school should have a training place, a job or a place in Uni.
7 - Voting age 16.
8 - Plaid has socialist aims so is a socialist party.
9 - Drugs legislation should be reformed.
10 - Give up nuclear deterrent, Scrap Trident. We should have an appropriate defence system for the threat we face.
11 - There is a battle going on against austerity. Many parties across Europe are fighting that battle. Referenced the wake of WWII when, instead of austerity we invested our way out of the situation resulting in the 'never had it so good' years of the next couple of decades.
The above may not be what the founding fathers of Plaid's stated aims were a century ago but I don't care. I imagine the same could be said of any party if you go back 100 years but this is a different world.
What I care about is what's being said now and I can't argue against much of the above. |
The thing about that list, John, is there's nothing there you won't see elsewhere. She's plucked a policy here, adopted the Fabian train of thought there, but she has nothing to say on why Plaid was formed in the first place. I'm far from convinced it's a motivation she shares or even understands?
This isn't a test but have you ever heard of the Idea, Ideal if you prefer, of "Francite?" It is/was the philosophy that underpinned the French radical traditionalists of the last century. It posits the existence of an eternal France; independent of the contemporary world, not subject to or defined by parliamentary legislation, the whim of democrats. Heavily influenced as they were by continental Europe Plaid picked up the baton with relish and formulated the sister theory of "Cymreictod," in the service of which its leading members were prepared to risk, indeed were imprisoned. It was profoundly anti-egalitarian, militating for the development of an elite who were prepared to strive for the survival of the Welsh branch of high European culture: Her arts, her literature, her religion.
Without the foregoing Plaid is just another pseudo-Socialist rabble treading the mendicant path. I can't see as there's much need of another. [Post edited 20 Mar 2015 17:38]
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 21:22 - Mar 21 with 1198 views | trampie |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 16:56 - Mar 20 by Lohengrin |
The thing about that list, John, is there's nothing there you won't see elsewhere. She's plucked a policy here, adopted the Fabian train of thought there, but she has nothing to say on why Plaid was formed in the first place. I'm far from convinced it's a motivation she shares or even understands?
This isn't a test but have you ever heard of the Idea, Ideal if you prefer, of "Francite?" It is/was the philosophy that underpinned the French radical traditionalists of the last century. It posits the existence of an eternal France; independent of the contemporary world, not subject to or defined by parliamentary legislation, the whim of democrats. Heavily influenced as they were by continental Europe Plaid picked up the baton with relish and formulated the sister theory of "Cymreictod," in the service of which its leading members were prepared to risk, indeed were imprisoned. It was profoundly anti-egalitarian, militating for the development of an elite who were prepared to strive for the survival of the Welsh branch of high European culture: Her arts, her literature, her religion.
Without the foregoing Plaid is just another pseudo-Socialist rabble treading the mendicant path. I can't see as there's much need of another. [Post edited 20 Mar 2015 17:38]
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The founding fathers were men of their time, their time was the same time as Hitler and Churchill. The world moved away from elitism after the 2ndWW somewhat, one lot thinking they were greater, superior, more intelligent than the other lot.
In 81' Plaid adopted "community socialism" as a constitutional aim. | |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 00:04 - Mar 22 with 1178 views | Lohengrin |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 21:22 - Mar 21 by trampie |
The founding fathers were men of their time, their time was the same time as Hitler and Churchill. The world moved away from elitism after the 2ndWW somewhat, one lot thinking they were greater, superior, more intelligent than the other lot.
In 81' Plaid adopted "community socialism" as a constitutional aim. |
Well answer me this, then. Is the Wales of your imagination one which has the wings to scale the heights of Williams Pantycelyn's imagination or one that plumbs the depths of Ian Bone's jealousy and bitterness?
Socialism is a mental and societal straight-jacket that anybody with a modicum of self reliance and self respect must reject out of hand. The party of Saunders Lewis advocated a form of collectivism that appealed to the upright, free thinking man not the statism, the upper case STATISM, of the lumpen drone. It was the self-help of the artisan guilds, the friendly societies, building societies and co-operatives not the whimpering mendicancy of welfarism.
Your Leanne and her cohorts are sullying a movement and a tradition that they are unworthy of. Better by far that she and her supporters go back to Labour where they belong, they'd be far more at home among the small-mindedness, jealousy and corruption that is the natural habitat of the pale red than try to recreate the same fetid atmosphere within a movement that was founded in acclamation of a higher calling. | |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 00:22 - Mar 22 with 1163 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 00:04 - Mar 22 by Lohengrin |
Well answer me this, then. Is the Wales of your imagination one which has the wings to scale the heights of Williams Pantycelyn's imagination or one that plumbs the depths of Ian Bone's jealousy and bitterness?
Socialism is a mental and societal straight-jacket that anybody with a modicum of self reliance and self respect must reject out of hand. The party of Saunders Lewis advocated a form of collectivism that appealed to the upright, free thinking man not the statism, the upper case STATISM, of the lumpen drone. It was the self-help of the artisan guilds, the friendly societies, building societies and co-operatives not the whimpering mendicancy of welfarism.
Your Leanne and her cohorts are sullying a movement and a tradition that they are unworthy of. Better by far that she and her supporters go back to Labour where they belong, they'd be far more at home among the small-mindedness, jealousy and corruption that is the natural habitat of the pale red than try to recreate the same fetid atmosphere within a movement that was founded in acclamation of a higher calling. |
Chapeau :-) | | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 02:10 - Mar 22 with 1142 views | Humpty |
I just watched the programme mentioned earlier after reading about it here.
I can only assume that Lohengrin, Lisa and Perch didn't.
All I heard was a decent women putting forward non extreme socialist policies. Sort of what Labour once was. All very agreeable to me.
Nothing like the bile spilt by the afore mentioned.
For god's sake if you want to attack the woman have a go at what she said. Not you're own personal interpretation of what socialism and Plaid mean to you, in you own little right wing worlds.
Jeez.
BTW I am in no way a Welsh Nat. Just against people misrepresenting the views of others when all they really want to do is spread their own version of what that Party stands for according to them.
Sorry if this could have been written better but I'm a bit pissed. |  | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 07:53 - Mar 22 with 1127 views | Lohengrin |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 02:10 - Mar 22 by Humpty |
I just watched the programme mentioned earlier after reading about it here.
I can only assume that Lohengrin, Lisa and Perch didn't.
All I heard was a decent women putting forward non extreme socialist policies. Sort of what Labour once was. All very agreeable to me.
Nothing like the bile spilt by the afore mentioned.
For god's sake if you want to attack the woman have a go at what she said. Not you're own personal interpretation of what socialism and Plaid mean to you, in you own little right wing worlds.
Jeez.
BTW I am in no way a Welsh Nat. Just against people misrepresenting the views of others when all they really want to do is spread their own version of what that Party stands for according to them.
Sorry if this could have been written better but I'm a bit pissed. |
First off Humpty let me just say coming on here pissed on a Saturday night is entirely proper JNF behaviour. 
Right then, yes I did watch it. I've no problem with anything she said, no problem at all with her personally, I'm sure she's very nice. She did a very reasonable, very cosy talk on behalf of The Labour Party.
As for me I haven't been "spreading my own version of what the party stands for." I've just been reiterating the message propagated by every book, every radio talk, every leader-article, every courtroom speech and pulpit sermon on behalf of Plaid for the best part of seventy years, none of which was "right wing" in the first place.
If I'm guilty of anything it's a sin of omission, I haven't said nearly enough on the centrality of Christianity to Plaid's ethos; then again it's not something likely to prove too fashionable with the people behind the party's repositioning, is it? | |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 08:35 - Mar 22 with 1109 views | Kilkennyjack |
Repositioning is correct. A party based on a bunch of well meaning small town lawyer types is simply not going appeal in the modern world. Like the SNP, Plaid is on a journey that allows it to step into areas now simply abandoned by New Labour. Its the labour party that has moved not their core voters. Plaid now represents the party who will put the welsh peoples interests first rather than it being a London 'after thought'. The fact that Leanne is so different to the posh boy boring bastards that are Clegg, Dai Cam, ed miliband, and that idiot Farage makes the point. Gwynfor was a conviction politician - right or wrong - and Leanne is made of similar stuff. People can relate to that. An extra £1.2 billion a year for Wales from the reform of Barnet would be a good argument to win. And thats simply insisting on equal treatment for Wales. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 08:53 - Mar 22 with 1100 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 08:35 - Mar 22 by Kilkennyjack |
Repositioning is correct. A party based on a bunch of well meaning small town lawyer types is simply not going appeal in the modern world. Like the SNP, Plaid is on a journey that allows it to step into areas now simply abandoned by New Labour. Its the labour party that has moved not their core voters. Plaid now represents the party who will put the welsh peoples interests first rather than it being a London 'after thought'. The fact that Leanne is so different to the posh boy boring bastards that are Clegg, Dai Cam, ed miliband, and that idiot Farage makes the point. Gwynfor was a conviction politician - right or wrong - and Leanne is made of similar stuff. People can relate to that. An extra £1.2 billion a year for Wales from the reform of Barnet would be a good argument to win. And thats simply insisting on equal treatment for Wales. |
It needs to do it cross border though, unthinkable to the non visionary. There are great swathes of old labour territory just waiting for the leftist alternative, wherever they come from and whatever they are called. |  |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 08:57 - Mar 22 with 1099 views | ProjectVRD |
GVA figures are a bit of a red herring to be honest folks, they are largely flawed for many reasons and I can give one example as it is a very complex area of economics. I am sure you would not be interested in reading a whole novel about it:
Wales has a GVA approx 72% of the UK average, however Wales does not have full representation in the two of some of the biggest industries in the UK.
Energy and Water.
It is in both of these industries that Wales is a exporter meaning that we produce more than we consume ourselves, and our exports from these industries go to the other UK nations. However the companies for which these exports are delivered for are based in England meaning that the GVA figure only takes into account the salaries of those working in these industries in Wales and not the profits generated. Every year the profits amount to billions and every year they must be accounted for in England's GVA as that is where the companies are HQ'd, so those nuclear power stations, gas stations, oil refineries etc result in a skewed GVA in regards to our nation.
We probably are below the UK average, but if you were to assign proportionate profits from exports than the gap would be much smaller. | | | |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:23 - Mar 22 with 1087 views | Lohengrin |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 08:35 - Mar 22 by Kilkennyjack |
Repositioning is correct. A party based on a bunch of well meaning small town lawyer types is simply not going appeal in the modern world. Like the SNP, Plaid is on a journey that allows it to step into areas now simply abandoned by New Labour. Its the labour party that has moved not their core voters. Plaid now represents the party who will put the welsh peoples interests first rather than it being a London 'after thought'. The fact that Leanne is so different to the posh boy boring bastards that are Clegg, Dai Cam, ed miliband, and that idiot Farage makes the point. Gwynfor was a conviction politician - right or wrong - and Leanne is made of similar stuff. People can relate to that. An extra £1.2 billion a year for Wales from the reform of Barnet would be a good argument to win. And thats simply insisting on equal treatment for Wales. |
I had the pleasure of meeting Gwynfor Evans on a few occasions, I'd made the effort to go see him speaking several times as he was always somebody that had something to say worth listening to. He was quite posh and rather grand in his way too, Kilkenny. Your comments above made me smile in that respect. A graduate of St John's, Oxford and a naturally talented linguist he was one of the more cerebral politicians of his generation; heartily disliked by Welsh Labour too, may I add, partly because he had very little of the back-slapping, false-bonhomie of the valleys politico claque about him. But mostly, of course, because he had the perspicacity to see Labour for the fount of hot air and empty promises it really was.
Gwynfor in his time was also the living embodiment of the elite I referred to in an earlier post on this thread. I think young Trampie rather got the wrong end of the stick in his reply because I was referring to the arising of a select group of individuals, a vanguard, or cadre if you prefer, with the commitment to stick their neck out and endure for a cause they valued more than their personal comfort and reputation. For Saunders Lewis and his friends that time came with the Penyberth fire and the subsequent trials. For Gwynfor it was his commitment to go on hunger strike if government promises made over the set-up of a Welsh language station were reneged on. Those are the actions of an elite, that's what I meant when I used the phrase earlier.
Now I don't think I'm being discourteous to Ms Wood or any of the modernisers surrounding her when I say that neither she nor they are cut from that cloth. Very few are. | |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:29 - Mar 22 with 1083 views | Brynmill_Jack |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:23 - Mar 22 by Lohengrin |
I had the pleasure of meeting Gwynfor Evans on a few occasions, I'd made the effort to go see him speaking several times as he was always somebody that had something to say worth listening to. He was quite posh and rather grand in his way too, Kilkenny. Your comments above made me smile in that respect. A graduate of St John's, Oxford and a naturally talented linguist he was one of the more cerebral politicians of his generation; heartily disliked by Welsh Labour too, may I add, partly because he had very little of the back-slapping, false-bonhomie of the valleys politico claque about him. But mostly, of course, because he had the perspicacity to see Labour for the fount of hot air and empty promises it really was.
Gwynfor in his time was also the living embodiment of the elite I referred to in an earlier post on this thread. I think young Trampie rather got the wrong end of the stick in his reply because I was referring to the arising of a select group of individuals, a vanguard, or cadre if you prefer, with the commitment to stick their neck out and endure for a cause they valued more than their personal comfort and reputation. For Saunders Lewis and his friends that time came with the Penyberth fire and the subsequent trials. For Gwynfor it was his commitment to go on hunger strike if government promises made over the set-up of a Welsh language station were reneged on. Those are the actions of an elite, that's what I meant when I used the phrase earlier.
Now I don't think I'm being discourteous to Ms Wood or any of the modernisers surrounding her when I say that neither she nor they are cut from that cloth. Very few are. |
Can't fault any of that. If it were possible to unite those kinds of intellects with the social visions of Bevan it would be a party I'd certainly vote for. | |
| Each time I go to Bedd - au........................ |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:34 - Mar 22 with 1077 views | exiledclaseboy |
Banging on about Plaid's foundations in 2015 is about as relevant as comparing the modern Conservative Party to that of Pitt the Younger's Whigs and Miliband's Labour Keir Hardie's. Despite the protestations of the Welsh nats, Plaid is now nothing more than a Welsh extension of today's modern day, establishment politics. |  |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:39 - Mar 22 with 1072 views | monmouth |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:34 - Mar 22 by exiledclaseboy |
Banging on about Plaid's foundations in 2015 is about as relevant as comparing the modern Conservative Party to that of Pitt the Younger's Whigs and Miliband's Labour Keir Hardie's. Despite the protestations of the Welsh nats, Plaid is now nothing more than a Welsh extension of today's modern day, establishment politics. |
Aye a ragtag of liblabcons that just happen to speak Welsh. I like them, in an 'ahh, nice doggie' sort of fashion. |  |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 10:05 - Mar 22 with 1061 views | Lohengrin |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 09:34 - Mar 22 by exiledclaseboy |
Banging on about Plaid's foundations in 2015 is about as relevant as comparing the modern Conservative Party to that of Pitt the Younger's Whigs and Miliband's Labour Keir Hardie's. Despite the protestations of the Welsh nats, Plaid is now nothing more than a Welsh extension of today's modern day, establishment politics. |
I don't see it that way at all, Clase. Plaid's foundation is as relevant today as it was in 1925. They aren't really a "party" at all in the usual sense they have always been primarily a movement of cultural renaissance. When you look back at the Labour, Conservative or Liberal programme of the mid-20's then of course their arguments are redundant because they are largely economic in scope. Plaid is a different animal, it's not really anchored in the here and now.
[Post edited 22 Mar 2015 10:10]
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 11:38 - Mar 22 with 1032 views | trampie |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 16:56 - Mar 20 by Lohengrin |
The thing about that list, John, is there's nothing there you won't see elsewhere. She's plucked a policy here, adopted the Fabian train of thought there, but she has nothing to say on why Plaid was formed in the first place. I'm far from convinced it's a motivation she shares or even understands?
This isn't a test but have you ever heard of the Idea, Ideal if you prefer, of "Francite?" It is/was the philosophy that underpinned the French radical traditionalists of the last century. It posits the existence of an eternal France; independent of the contemporary world, not subject to or defined by parliamentary legislation, the whim of democrats. Heavily influenced as they were by continental Europe Plaid picked up the baton with relish and formulated the sister theory of "Cymreictod," in the service of which its leading members were prepared to risk, indeed were imprisoned. It was profoundly anti-egalitarian, militating for the development of an elite who were prepared to strive for the survival of the Welsh branch of high European culture: Her arts, her literature, her religion.
Without the foregoing Plaid is just another pseudo-Socialist rabble treading the mendicant path. I can't see as there's much need of another. [Post edited 20 Mar 2015 17:38]
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I didn't write what I had in mind last night because I didn't have time, I perceived the founding fathers of Plaid as occupying similar ground to the 'Home Rule' party the Liberals at that time and that from those early days straight from the off that Plaid moved steadily to the left.
In my time they were solid left, well before the declaration in 81 as there was no big leap or nothing at that point, it is wrong for anybody to think that Plaid have suddenly become a centre left party, they have been a centre left party for decades and decades, it is just that Labour abandoning the working class and becoming another Tory party is just becoming recognised by more and more people although it happened 30 odd years ago and also Plaid have a real 'left winger' as their leader, this gives people with only a passing interest the impression that Plaid have suddenly become centre left when they were centre left decades and decades ago.
Plaid have always been a soft middle of the road type gentle party for intellectuals [even taking into consideration some direction action, mainly taken in the early days], since Gwynfor's day they become more centre left and more socialist and less cultural but not drastically so.
I agree that the founding fathers wanted to save and grow the Welsh branch of European higher culture, but unlike the Churchills and Hitlers and others of that time, any perceived superiority was not forced on others or they did not tell others that they were inferior to the Crachach, they were very benevolent towards people that might have been seen as lower down the pecking order and they always favoured social justice.
Times have moved on, Plaid need to appeal to the majority English speaking in the towns and villages of industrial South Wales, simply appealing to Welsh speaking professional people, small business people and landowners in their rural heartlands would only see them as nothing more than a pressure group for the language and Welsh culture but attracting people outside those areas with social justice policies could help them towards become the biggest party in the Assembly one day [they have to aim high]. | |
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| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 12:01 - Mar 22 with 1018 views | trampie |
| Leanne Wood on BBC3 last night on 00:04 - Mar 22 by Lohengrin |
Well answer me this, then. Is the Wales of your imagination one which has the wings to scale the heights of Williams Pantycelyn's imagination or one that plumbs the depths of Ian Bone's jealousy and bitterness?
Socialism is a mental and societal straight-jacket that anybody with a modicum of self reliance and self respect must reject out of hand. The party of Saunders Lewis advocated a form of collectivism that appealed to the upright, free thinking man not the statism, the upper case STATISM, of the lumpen drone. It was the self-help of the artisan guilds, the friendly societies, building societies and co-operatives not the whimpering mendicancy of welfarism.
Your Leanne and her cohorts are sullying a movement and a tradition that they are unworthy of. Better by far that she and her supporters go back to Labour where they belong, they'd be far more at home among the small-mindedness, jealousy and corruption that is the natural habitat of the pale red than try to recreate the same fetid atmosphere within a movement that was founded in acclamation of a higher calling. |
Is the Pantycelyn and Bone thing having to pick one or the other ?
I'm generalising but as regards Pantycelyn I was the last generation to go to Sunday School [Methodist] and the first generation not to work down the mines, leaving a generation of youth in my location very angry, often unemployed and disenfranchised at the time of Bone's Class War.
Leanne and cohorts sullying a movement that they are unworthy of you say.
You clearly have a love in thing going on with old Plaid, you seem to love the 1925 idealism, eltistism, cultural nationalism, intellectual aloofness that you perceive Plaid to have been at that time, just for others not so well versed, all things in life are relative, we are talking Churchill and Hitler at that time here folks.
The World turned away from Eugenics after the 2WW and some groups seeing themselves as better than others, incidentally the Welsh was seen by some as being at the top of the tree belonging to what some seen as the civilised group of peoples and some just like their French counter parts would look down on our friends from the East as culturally inferior.
But this is 2015 not 1925 Lohengrin, Plaid who was a softer nicer party than their competitors in the early days [I know about attacking the occupying imperialist British State military base] is still a softer nicer political party with their social justice mild form of socialism compared to the rampant unregulated capitalism of the main Westminster parties. [Post edited 22 Mar 2015 12:05]
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