| Latest Figures 06:13 - Mar 30 with 11785 views | R17ALE |
Have arrived to shareholders and they show a healthy profit from our relegation season, but scratching beneath the surface they are also alarming. We received £985,715 in transfer fees (£477,664 the previous year) and we showed a profit of £350,000.
However, the contributaries to the cause, ie the commercial department all showed a decrease in every area. Goldbond looks to be down by about £300 per week and we have got to close the shop. It is costing us a player to keep it open!
Brace yourselves....
Shop sales fell from £130,000 to £80,000. Cost of shop purchases was £58,000. You can take out £12,000 at least from the £80,000 as that is coach travel money which continues to be accounted for incorrectly. So we've basically spent £58k to produce £68k and we've paid someone £x to do it.
And the board wonder why fans are staying away, and constantly wonder "what problem?"
FFS, it's there in black and white. Again. |  |
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| Latest Figures on 06:44 - Mar 30 with 5425 views | BartRowou |
I'm reserving judgement until the impact of yesterday's Easter egg comp has been accounted for. |  |
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| Latest Figures on 07:42 - Mar 30 with 5360 views | 442Dale |
Can the adverse financial climate be blamed for any fall in revenue? Even though it's existed for quite a while, surely it can be used year on year as an excuse?
As the latest accounts will include the first year of the Co-Op shirt sponsorship (which began in the 11-12 season), that area of the club should have seen some significant increases in performance. |  |
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| Latest Figures on 07:51 - Mar 30 with 5340 views | CockneyDale |
It's been said time and time again: the shop stocks a poor range. Much money has been wasted purchasing stock that won't sell. The club continues (or appears to) have its head in the sand on this. I, for one, have contacted the club with suggestions on the matter and had no response. |  | | |
| Latest Figures on 08:10 - Mar 30 with 5319 views | AtThePeake |
I'll be honest, I've never really submersed myself in the financial side of things at the club, so an honest question from me:
Did we lose so much money when the club shop was selling Nike stuff?
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| Latest Figures on 08:15 - Mar 30 with 5302 views | zxcvbnm |
I always buy a shirt and the fila one isn't too bad but I for one havent bought any merchandise since we left nike. Uhlsport, nike both did decent stuff but carbine, fila no thanks |  |
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| Latest Figures on 08:18 - Mar 30 with 5290 views | TalkingSutty |
| Latest Figures on 07:51 - Mar 30 by CockneyDale |
It's been said time and time again: the shop stocks a poor range. Much money has been wasted purchasing stock that won't sell. The club continues (or appears to) have its head in the sand on this. I, for one, have contacted the club with suggestions on the matter and had no response. |
I was looking through the back of my season ticket and noticed i had a ten pound voucher off a replica Dale shirt that needed using. I went into the shop and noticed they had been reduced and are now on sale but on trying to purchase one my money was declined as they wouldnt take my voucher because the shirt had been reduced.
I wasnt particlarly bothered about buying one but thought it would make use of the voucher and put a few quid in the till.
It doesnt make you valued as a season ticket holder and i will spend the money somewhere else. |  | | |
| Latest Figures on 08:25 - Mar 30 with 5281 views | R17ALE |
| Latest Figures on 07:42 - Mar 30 by 442Dale |
Can the adverse financial climate be blamed for any fall in revenue? Even though it's existed for quite a while, surely it can be used year on year as an excuse?
As the latest accounts will include the first year of the Co-Op shirt sponsorship (which began in the 11-12 season), that area of the club should have seen some significant increases in performance. |
Sponsorship fell from £161,000 to £103,000.
Personally, I think too much will be made of the decision to move away from Nike.
Whilst it was a poor decision, I don't think who makes the shirt has much impact on who buys it. This season's Fila shirt is as good as any Nike shirt imho.
The shop makes its money from not over ordering (anyone who was at Jacks kit auction last Spring will testify) on core lines, and it was evident that we were guilty of over ordering 100's of units.
The flip side of this coin is that we were also guilty of under selling items, which falls down to lack of advertising, lack of customer service, and a general cba attitude.
Away from Cabrini products, there exists the opportunity to be creative and stock other items that fans want to buy, that also offer good mark ups, but the tried and trusted items like mini kits, mini scarves, pin badges, pennants, programme binders, pens etc. appear to have been ignored. Shame really.
And the lack of any advertising of any product for as long as I can recall is just shoddy. | |
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| Latest Figures on 08:32 - Mar 30 with 5272 views | pcolly |
I don't profess to know about the commercial side however are you suggesting fans are staying away due to ,in your eyes, a poorly run commercial outfit? I would think that the case is that the football and general matchday experience is not good/entertaining enough to justify £15/£20 in a lot of people's eyes.
I don't see how you could expect anything but a reduction in shop takings from previous years when crowds were down considerably and the financial state of the country as a whole. At a time when most retail shops are struggling, why should the club shop be any different? This is not to say the club just accept the numbers and not evaluate them. I agree it is worrying, in line with the high street as a whole. But when your potential customer base is shrinking due to reasons beyond your control, how do you increase sales?
Out of interest, what kind of turnover would you have deemed acceptable in a year with lower crowds and people generally not having the disposable income of previous years?
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| Latest Figures on 08:36 - Mar 30 with 5260 views | 442Dale |
| Latest Figures on 08:10 - Mar 30 by AtThePeake |
I'll be honest, I've never really submersed myself in the financial side of things at the club, so an honest question from me:
Did we lose so much money when the club shop was selling Nike stuff?
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During the Centenary season we sold over 3300 shirts. Now that was helped by the Wembley trip and the fact that the black and white shirt was unique, but targets to sell a third of that amount each season should be the minimum (being conservative).
The link below shows that we only sold 600 the year before. Reasons? The blue Nike shirt remained the same with only a change of sponsor, only the away kit changed to a bog standard white one. Also we had the very uncertain summer of '06 when Parkin tried, and failed, to put together a competitive squad.
http://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/rochdale/fb_news.php?storyid=1063
For the summer of '11 the Carbrini home shirt stayed pretty much the same (collar and sponsor changed) and the away shirt was another white one.
Lessons to be learnt? Well they're in the figures.
- do we keep detailed records of how many units each shirt sells still? If we do, these should be constantly at the forefront of those involved in the sales and marketing of the club. When asked at last summer's fans forum how many of the new Fila shirts had been sold, the answer was not known.
- are a certain colour of away shirt more popular in terms of sales than others? Simple to work out, and therefore easy to eliminate that colour as an option.
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Latest Figures on 08:39 - Mar 30 with 5248 views | G_Dale |
I'm not a regular programme buyer but the odd time I do, there are never any club shop adverts. Surely a 'deal of the week/month' should be brought in and really pushed online, on gold bond sheets, in the programmes, etc? | |
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| Latest Figures on 08:47 - Mar 30 with 5234 views | 442Dale |
| Latest Figures on 08:25 - Mar 30 by R17ALE |
Sponsorship fell from £161,000 to £103,000.
Personally, I think too much will be made of the decision to move away from Nike.
Whilst it was a poor decision, I don't think who makes the shirt has much impact on who buys it. This season's Fila shirt is as good as any Nike shirt imho.
The shop makes its money from not over ordering (anyone who was at Jacks kit auction last Spring will testify) on core lines, and it was evident that we were guilty of over ordering 100's of units.
The flip side of this coin is that we were also guilty of under selling items, which falls down to lack of advertising, lack of customer service, and a general cba attitude.
Away from Cabrini products, there exists the opportunity to be creative and stock other items that fans want to buy, that also offer good mark ups, but the tried and trusted items like mini kits, mini scarves, pin badges, pennants, programme binders, pens etc. appear to have been ignored. Shame really.
And the lack of any advertising of any product for as long as I can recall is just shoddy. |
Why would sponsorship fall if Co-Op came on board? There might be an obvious reason for this which lies away from shirt sponsorship, but surely that deal was much more productive than having various arms of the JD empire on the kit?
And while we're on the subject, as we were told the new shirt that was voted on would be out at the end of the season, who exactly will be sponsoring it as it must be in production soon to get it on the shelves? If the club can get Hill to sign a contract, have him present on a kit launch day with various offers available and at least sales figures will get a decent initial boost. | |
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| Latest Figures on 09:01 - Mar 30 with 5209 views | TVOS1907 |
| Latest Figures on 08:39 - Mar 30 by G_Dale |
I'm not a regular programme buyer but the odd time I do, there are never any club shop adverts. Surely a 'deal of the week/month' should be brought in and really pushed online, on gold bond sheets, in the programmes, etc? |
I agree, G_Dale, but can only print what I'm sent by those departments.
On the odd occasion there have been extra adverts for Kid a Quid (JPT matches), Xmas Draw, Summer Draw, etc, I've done them off my own back at the expense of a regular article. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Latest Figures on 09:01 - Mar 30 with 5210 views | ColDale |
Changing tact slightly, what stood out for me in the financial figures is that the wage bill last season when we finished bottom of the division was £200,000 higher than it was when Hill took us to our highest every finish the season before.
There can never be any more arguments that Eyre and Coleman were never backed by the board. It just goes to show that a decent manager is worth his weight in gold. |  | | |
| Latest Figures on 09:07 - Mar 30 with 5200 views | The_DJ |
Think you need to raise your concerns at the AGM and insist that the Board come back to shareholders with answers rather than the current trend of sticking their heads up their arses and hoping 'things' will fix themselves. |  | | |
| Latest Figures on 09:15 - Mar 30 with 5170 views | 442Dale |
| Latest Figures on 09:01 - Mar 30 by TVOS1907 |
I agree, G_Dale, but can only print what I'm sent by those departments.
On the odd occasion there have been extra adverts for Kid a Quid (JPT matches), Xmas Draw, Summer Draw, etc, I've done them off my own back at the expense of a regular article. |
There would, of course, be a detailed plan for what is promoted on the commercial page(s). As an example, at this stage of the season a football club would look to promote any sale items available in the club shop to maximise sales ahead of new stock arriving in the summer. Also, the marketing department of a club would use the opportunity to promote the sponsorship and other related opportunities with a view to getting interested parties on board as early as possible before the close season. Another example? If a programme had a 'sponsor a goal' page, they would already be advertising that fans can start signing up for next season - simply including contact details would assist with this.
These relatively easy ideas to use the programme as a method of communication at this stage of the season would be something that all football clubs should be maximising. Not that it's telling all 92 clubs what to do. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Latest Figures on 09:17 - Mar 30 with 5160 views | 442Dale |
| Latest Figures on 09:07 - Mar 30 by The_DJ |
Think you need to raise your concerns at the AGM and insist that the Board come back to shareholders with answers rather than the current trend of sticking their heads up their arses and hoping 'things' will fix themselves. |
As most of the questions raised should not be difficult to answer, then they probably will be.
The club should ensure they are furnished with information from all departments to assist with answers or have staff from those departments present. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Latest Figures on 09:19 - Mar 30 with 5152 views | R17ALE |
| Latest Figures on 08:32 - Mar 30 by pcolly |
I don't profess to know about the commercial side however are you suggesting fans are staying away due to ,in your eyes, a poorly run commercial outfit? I would think that the case is that the football and general matchday experience is not good/entertaining enough to justify £15/£20 in a lot of people's eyes.
I don't see how you could expect anything but a reduction in shop takings from previous years when crowds were down considerably and the financial state of the country as a whole. At a time when most retail shops are struggling, why should the club shop be any different? This is not to say the club just accept the numbers and not evaluate them. I agree it is worrying, in line with the high street as a whole. But when your potential customer base is shrinking due to reasons beyond your control, how do you increase sales?
Out of interest, what kind of turnover would you have deemed acceptable in a year with lower crowds and people generally not having the disposable income of previous years?
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I think a lot of fans are becoming so disillusioned with the general poor running of the Commercial Dept, that it is indeed chipping away at their loyalty. The latest figures tell you that today we are fine, but in a couple of years we maybe in meltdown.
On your turnover question, I would expect us to fall in line with the High Street and collect £2 for every pound spent on stock, therefore £120,000 to put a figure on it.
To break this down further, we had say 2200 fans visit Spotland 23 times which equals 50,600. We should be able to attract £2.50 per person = £126,500. I know figures can be massaged to create illusions etc. but speaking to long serving fans on the Sandy yesterday, and all of them said they'd got out of the habit of going in the shop because it was full of shit. This sample is only a handful of people but the reason was unanimous.
To answer your "how do you increase sales" question, you work harder. Advertise products, do research on popular products to stock, research your customer base. What you don't do is look at falling attendances, a credit crunch, a declining town, and seek refuge in these comfortable alibis.
I hope I've answered your post sufficiently. | |
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| Latest Figures on 10:07 - Mar 30 with 5054 views | pcolly |
| Latest Figures on 09:19 - Mar 30 by R17ALE |
I think a lot of fans are becoming so disillusioned with the general poor running of the Commercial Dept, that it is indeed chipping away at their loyalty. The latest figures tell you that today we are fine, but in a couple of years we maybe in meltdown.
On your turnover question, I would expect us to fall in line with the High Street and collect £2 for every pound spent on stock, therefore £120,000 to put a figure on it.
To break this down further, we had say 2200 fans visit Spotland 23 times which equals 50,600. We should be able to attract £2.50 per person = £126,500. I know figures can be massaged to create illusions etc. but speaking to long serving fans on the Sandy yesterday, and all of them said they'd got out of the habit of going in the shop because it was full of shit. This sample is only a handful of people but the reason was unanimous.
To answer your "how do you increase sales" question, you work harder. Advertise products, do research on popular products to stock, research your customer base. What you don't do is look at falling attendances, a credit crunch, a declining town, and seek refuge in these comfortable alibis.
I hope I've answered your post sufficiently. |
Thank you for your reply.
I agree completely in not seeking refuge in easy excuses/reasons however they will obviously have an impact on sales and this cant be ignored if we are to look at the situation with an unbiased view. And I fully support your "work harder" ethos. Now is the time when every pound has to be fought for and a pro active attitude is a must.
I believe this attitude was shown when the club offered the recent 3 for 2 match tickets. Was this a success? Crowd figures suggest not? Happy to be proved wrong though. I think this shows that its not easy right now to get people spending their money at the Dale. Unfortunately, current league 2 football(recently described by Hill as rubbish) at £15/£20 isn't a product people outside the core 1500 supporters seem to want. And therein lies the biggest problem in my eyes. If we were to offer a game completely free of charge what would the crowd be? My guess is not over 4000. The interest just isn't there in my opinion. This is the issue that needs addressing in the main. I could of course be way off the mark. Anyway, I digress.
What do you put the drop in goldbond subscriptions down to?
Do you visit other club shops on your away days? What would you say are the main differences in ones you feel are performing better than our own?
Is the £2.50 a number with theory or history behind it?
I have never worked in a retail store and therefore my views may have very little weight in them but I would imagine the fortunes of the sales are directly related to the fortunes of the team. It would take extremely good management of the shop to reverse that trend in the positive sense. Impossible? No Improbable? Yes
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| Latest Figures on 10:12 - Mar 30 with 5042 views | RAFCBLUE |
The panacea appears to be close the shop, make all of its staff redundant & retain only enough staff to facilitate the Goldbond process which although down on previous years still makes a financial contribution.
Having made those redundancies, the club can explore other ways of selling core merchandise (shirts etc) via match day channels and the Internet. It clearly cannot justify the expense of full time head count in this area. |  |
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| Latest Figures on 10:15 - Mar 30 with 5032 views | D_Alien |
| Latest Figures on 09:19 - Mar 30 by R17ALE |
I think a lot of fans are becoming so disillusioned with the general poor running of the Commercial Dept, that it is indeed chipping away at their loyalty. The latest figures tell you that today we are fine, but in a couple of years we maybe in meltdown.
On your turnover question, I would expect us to fall in line with the High Street and collect £2 for every pound spent on stock, therefore £120,000 to put a figure on it.
To break this down further, we had say 2200 fans visit Spotland 23 times which equals 50,600. We should be able to attract £2.50 per person = £126,500. I know figures can be massaged to create illusions etc. but speaking to long serving fans on the Sandy yesterday, and all of them said they'd got out of the habit of going in the shop because it was full of shit. This sample is only a handful of people but the reason was unanimous.
To answer your "how do you increase sales" question, you work harder. Advertise products, do research on popular products to stock, research your customer base. What you don't do is look at falling attendances, a credit crunch, a declining town, and seek refuge in these comfortable alibis.
I hope I've answered your post sufficiently. |
Disillusionment with the poor running of the commercial department, in itself, isn't the basic problem - it was run poorly during 2006-10 when we had a team; no, the basic issue is the attitude of the board towards the support in general, of which the commercial side is just a symptom.
Its obvious from a brief perusal of this messageboard that alongside the usual idiocy that goes with the territory (and I'm guilty of that sometimes too), there's also a passionate group of well-educated, erudite, experienced professional people who have so much to offer.
We've offered, and its been turned down, or worse still, simply ignored in the most disrespectful way. The contributions of the Dale Trust are regarded as a nuisance rather than something to be valued and incorporated into the general well-being of the club.
Whilst I have respect for anyone who puts their hands into their pockets year on year to help keep the club afloat, that respect is destroyed when the financial contribution is used as an excuse to create a closed shop. We're talking about a football club, not a firm of widget-makers or estate agents...
For me, the one hope is that Keith Hill can somehow force through a complete change of attitude by making it a requirement of the club moving forward to include much stronger links with the fanbase, probably through the Dale Trust. If fans could see the Trust being included in decisions made on the commercial side of the club then the Trust itself would IMO go from strength to strength.
What is there lose? Apart from football league status if nothing changes?
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| Latest Figures on 10:20 - Mar 30 with 5014 views | SaxonDale |
| Latest Figures on 09:19 - Mar 30 by R17ALE |
I think a lot of fans are becoming so disillusioned with the general poor running of the Commercial Dept, that it is indeed chipping away at their loyalty. The latest figures tell you that today we are fine, but in a couple of years we maybe in meltdown.
On your turnover question, I would expect us to fall in line with the High Street and collect £2 for every pound spent on stock, therefore £120,000 to put a figure on it.
To break this down further, we had say 2200 fans visit Spotland 23 times which equals 50,600. We should be able to attract £2.50 per person = £126,500. I know figures can be massaged to create illusions etc. but speaking to long serving fans on the Sandy yesterday, and all of them said they'd got out of the habit of going in the shop because it was full of shit. This sample is only a handful of people but the reason was unanimous.
To answer your "how do you increase sales" question, you work harder. Advertise products, do research on popular products to stock, research your customer base. What you don't do is look at falling attendances, a credit crunch, a declining town, and seek refuge in these comfortable alibis.
I hope I've answered your post sufficiently. |
'I know figures can be massaged to create illusions etc. but speaking to long serving fans on the Sandy yesterday, and all of them said they'd got out of the habit of going in the shop because it was full of shit' - Agree, I went into the club shop for the first time in about 6 months yesterday, and left 30 seconds later. |  | | |
| Latest Figures on 10:32 - Mar 30 with 4981 views | R17ALE |
| Latest Figures on 10:07 - Mar 30 by pcolly |
Thank you for your reply.
I agree completely in not seeking refuge in easy excuses/reasons however they will obviously have an impact on sales and this cant be ignored if we are to look at the situation with an unbiased view. And I fully support your "work harder" ethos. Now is the time when every pound has to be fought for and a pro active attitude is a must.
I believe this attitude was shown when the club offered the recent 3 for 2 match tickets. Was this a success? Crowd figures suggest not? Happy to be proved wrong though. I think this shows that its not easy right now to get people spending their money at the Dale. Unfortunately, current league 2 football(recently described by Hill as rubbish) at £15/£20 isn't a product people outside the core 1500 supporters seem to want. And therein lies the biggest problem in my eyes. If we were to offer a game completely free of charge what would the crowd be? My guess is not over 4000. The interest just isn't there in my opinion. This is the issue that needs addressing in the main. I could of course be way off the mark. Anyway, I digress.
What do you put the drop in goldbond subscriptions down to?
Do you visit other club shops on your away days? What would you say are the main differences in ones you feel are performing better than our own?
Is the £2.50 a number with theory or history behind it?
I have never worked in a retail store and therefore my views may have very little weight in them but I would imagine the fortunes of the sales are directly related to the fortunes of the team. It would take extremely good management of the shop to reverse that trend in the positive sense. Impossible? No Improbable? Yes
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I don't know if the 3 for 2 was a success and I'd agree that attendances this season have plummeted to an average which is currently lower than Barnets, and this just two years after we were doing the double over Soton, and were unbeaten v Brighton.
The reasons for this plummet are many, and the disastrous reigns of Eyre and Coleman are at the top of the list. But, as other posters have suggested, the club does little to enthuse us to keep the faith.
I agree with your 4000 comment and isn't that in itself really sad. Those of us on this forum want to love the club, really want to see it flourish and blossom, and that means every department pulling its weight fighting for every pound.
But, as an analogy, it's like a young boy being excited at the impending arrival of a baby sister, and when she pops out, it turns out she's ginger. The young boy wants to love his sister, but it's hard to.
EDIT: Forgot to say that I do visit club shops on my travels to keep abreast of the competition. The most telling thing is the layout is way ahead of ours. Retail gurus will know the importance of this. Also noticeable are special deals - 3 for 2 etc. on pens or whatever.
Also, Goldbond is probably down due to a reduction in agents who don't want the discounted season ticket as they don't want to come to games anymore. That is a pure stab in the dark, and it is a problem. But there is also a solution, but the figures suggest the solution is still to be found! [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Latest Figures on 10:35 - Mar 30 with 4970 views | StudiousDale |
I'd like to see analysis of other things that we have for sale in the club shop. Yes, the shirts will sell (and to a lesser extent the kit), but I can't believe that we sell many of the spin-off items such as the coats, blinds etc.
R17ALE you commented how you don't believe the brand impacts on kit sales, which may be true (although design does matter I didn't buy the thin striped home shirt of last year because I didn't like it), but Nike would have definitely boosted the sales of the tracksuits and training wear.
As an exiled Dale, I've been put off buying things from the online club shop due to the £7.50 delivery fee (to UK mainland), which is extortionate.
"The club shop is open from 9am-5pm Monday-Friday, 9am-5pm on a Saturday home match, and 9am-12pm on an away day. The shop is closed on a Sunday. Click here to visit the official online club shop."
I don't see the point of the club shop being open Mon-Fri 9-5 all season, unless the person in there is sat doing other commercial work for the club instead of being paid just to man the shop.
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| Latest Figures on 10:38 - Mar 30 with 4961 views | SalwaDale |
What a pointless thread.
What problem? |  |
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| Latest Figures on 10:47 - Mar 30 with 4940 views | sandylaner1 |
| Latest Figures on 09:01 - Mar 30 by ColDale |
Changing tact slightly, what stood out for me in the financial figures is that the wage bill last season when we finished bottom of the division was £200,000 higher than it was when Hill took us to our highest every finish the season before.
There can never be any more arguments that Eyre and Coleman were never backed by the board. It just goes to show that a decent manager is worth his weight in gold. |
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