| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:52 - Dec 26 with 1238 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:24 - Dec 26 by Chief |
I've described in great detail a major con in all this. Why are you ignoring that?
- Why do you keep repeating this about bot understating etc yet not actually saying what ive said that is incorrect? Stenches of all mouth no trousers.
- yea as you keep saying and I've explained that could be disastrous for the club but you keep ignoring that. [Post edited 26 Dec 2020 18:26]
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I thought for a while you might not be a 'lost case' but I was mistaken. You have been on the forum for too long and cannot see the wood from the trees.
The investment that fans have been demanding has now become "cash dumping" according to you. "A confidence trick". Bizarre. I am afraid its more like facing upto harsh ecomonic realities. The sun shined on Swansea for 18 years and they thought it would never end.
All you have been told by sages on line has been found to be untrue. "The Trust will always save the club and put the club first and the hedgefunders will just plunder the parachutes". The reality is the complete opposite. When the crisis came the Trust were giving their money away to London smoothies with no interest in football or Swansea. Shameful in my view.
I have been warning the Trust for a long time not holding cash was unsustainable and their holding at 21% holding was way too big for them. They could have protected themselves from dilution by holding only 5% and maintaining that while investing the surpus cash on the markets. Matching the £10m would be a modest £500k. They could do that now. With 5% and respected contributing partners they would have more clout not less. I do not assess people based on what passport they have. |  |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:06 - Dec 26 with 1225 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:52 - Dec 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I thought for a while you might not be a 'lost case' but I was mistaken. You have been on the forum for too long and cannot see the wood from the trees.
The investment that fans have been demanding has now become "cash dumping" according to you. "A confidence trick". Bizarre. I am afraid its more like facing upto harsh ecomonic realities. The sun shined on Swansea for 18 years and they thought it would never end.
All you have been told by sages on line has been found to be untrue. "The Trust will always save the club and put the club first and the hedgefunders will just plunder the parachutes". The reality is the complete opposite. When the crisis came the Trust were giving their money away to London smoothies with no interest in football or Swansea. Shameful in my view.
I have been warning the Trust for a long time not holding cash was unsustainable and their holding at 21% holding was way too big for them. They could have protected themselves from dilution by holding only 5% and maintaining that while investing the surpus cash on the markets. Matching the £10m would be a modest £500k. They could do that now. With 5% and respected contributing partners they would have more clout not less. I do not assess people based on what passport they have. |
So again you don't fancy actually addressing the points I've made? Can they actually be refuted?
The thread is called pros and cons (you created it)
I've given you a con. You've been writing on here long enough to realise people will respond to threads. |  |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:17 - Dec 26 with 1224 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:52 - Dec 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
I thought for a while you might not be a 'lost case' but I was mistaken. You have been on the forum for too long and cannot see the wood from the trees.
The investment that fans have been demanding has now become "cash dumping" according to you. "A confidence trick". Bizarre. I am afraid its more like facing upto harsh ecomonic realities. The sun shined on Swansea for 18 years and they thought it would never end.
All you have been told by sages on line has been found to be untrue. "The Trust will always save the club and put the club first and the hedgefunders will just plunder the parachutes". The reality is the complete opposite. When the crisis came the Trust were giving their money away to London smoothies with no interest in football or Swansea. Shameful in my view.
I have been warning the Trust for a long time not holding cash was unsustainable and their holding at 21% holding was way too big for them. They could have protected themselves from dilution by holding only 5% and maintaining that while investing the surpus cash on the markets. Matching the £10m would be a modest £500k. They could do that now. With 5% and respected contributing partners they would have more clout not less. I do not assess people based on what passport they have. |
But unlike you, i will address your points instead of going off on random rants:
- Does your first paragraph make sense? Am i lost cause in your eyes or not!? Haha.
- You may perceive it as that but the investment I think fans are keen to see is reinvestment of club funds derived from parachute payments and player sales.
- not sure why you've got speech marks there or who you're quoting. But as i say, Silverstein could simply be looking for somewhere to get a decent but risk free return. Especially with it being a loan, he can't really fail can he?
- More strange quotes, not sure from who. Do you know how to reference? Did you learn the Havard system?
- ah ok another random dig at the trust that basically has no relevance to this thread. Where are huw and Morgan? In this "crisis". No interest in Swansea? Thats completely untrue unfounded obviously. For what other cause would they bother taking those steps?
- yea well saying that online is easy. Not as easy to sell these shares in reality. We know K&L weren't / aren't keen on buying them. Strange now though you totally oppose the steps the trust are currently taking which could result in them reducing their shareholding. [Post edited 26 Dec 2020 21:35]
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:25 - Dec 26 with 1221 views | jasper_T |
If you think there's player sales income or parachute payment money lying around waiting to be reinvested you're beyond hope at this point. There's no mystery around where it's all gone. Getting relegated to this league (where no one's making money) with our wage bill and liabilities was brutal. |  | | |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:36 - Dec 26 with 1209 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:25 - Dec 26 by jasper_T |
If you think there's player sales income or parachute payment money lying around waiting to be reinvested you're beyond hope at this point. There's no mystery around where it's all gone. Getting relegated to this league (where no one's making money) with our wage bill and liabilities was brutal. |
Did i say it was lying around? No i said we should be getting regular transfer fee installments though. Is that false?
We've made a lot of money since getting relegated. | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 20:10 - Dec 26 with 1200 views | jasper_T |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:36 - Dec 26 by Chief |
Did i say it was lying around? No i said we should be getting regular transfer fee installments though. Is that false?
We've made a lot of money since getting relegated. |
Fantasy land. | | | |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 20:22 - Dec 26 with 1193 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 20:10 - Dec 26 by jasper_T |
Fantasy land. |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 10:19 - Dec 27 with 1152 views | Dr_Winston |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:25 - Dec 26 by jasper_T |
If you think there's player sales income or parachute payment money lying around waiting to be reinvested you're beyond hope at this point. There's no mystery around where it's all gone. Getting relegated to this league (where no one's making money) with our wage bill and liabilities was brutal. |
Yep.
Running a minimum £50m deficit from our first day down here and still some people are convinced that we've made a profit. At some point we have to accept that they simply don't want to believe otherwise. That no amount of evidence to the contrary (or lack of the same to support their belief) will convince them.
Footballing Flat Earthers. [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 10:23]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 12:07 - Dec 27 with 1124 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 10:19 - Dec 27 by Dr_Winston |
Yep.
Running a minimum £50m deficit from our first day down here and still some people are convinced that we've made a profit. At some point we have to accept that they simply don't want to believe otherwise. That no amount of evidence to the contrary (or lack of the same to support their belief) will convince them.
Footballing Flat Earthers. [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 10:23]
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How could be that much of a deficit when a load of wages were offloaded straight away, players were sold straight away and off course we had the parachute payment. The wage bill was nothing like it was from the team that played against Stoke to the one that played Sheff utd (or by the end of the window anyway so that 50mill deficit doesn't ring true to me. | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 14:39 - Dec 27 with 1097 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 12:07 - Dec 27 by Chief |
How could be that much of a deficit when a load of wages were offloaded straight away, players were sold straight away and off course we had the parachute payment. The wage bill was nothing like it was from the team that played against Stoke to the one that played Sheff utd (or by the end of the window anyway so that 50mill deficit doesn't ring true to me. |
Having money in the bank after player sales is great. This is Swansea at present. Unfortuantely Swansea has annual deficits which means it is like a bear in winter living off its own fat. The recent loan /investment indicates it is a transition loan as the fat had run out. A winter stack of hidden nuts if you like. Ayew going will take 4m of the bills and hopefully some fans can return.
Indications of running out of money is late payment of wages. Failure to pay bills means bankruptcy. The Silverstein loan / investment is not only good it is vital. If Swansea goes bankrupt the Trusts roughly £8m valuation become worthless. It time the Trust started explaining the nuts and bolts of ownership to their members. They should be grateful to the US cash from Silverstein and Levien and co.
Its common sense to those with some understanding of finance. There are plenty of those on the Trust board but they keep their own counsel. A bit like Boris and the appalling deficits at UK plc [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 14:47]
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 15:07 - Dec 27 with 1088 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 14:39 - Dec 27 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Having money in the bank after player sales is great. This is Swansea at present. Unfortuantely Swansea has annual deficits which means it is like a bear in winter living off its own fat. The recent loan /investment indicates it is a transition loan as the fat had run out. A winter stack of hidden nuts if you like. Ayew going will take 4m of the bills and hopefully some fans can return.
Indications of running out of money is late payment of wages. Failure to pay bills means bankruptcy. The Silverstein loan / investment is not only good it is vital. If Swansea goes bankrupt the Trusts roughly £8m valuation become worthless. It time the Trust started explaining the nuts and bolts of ownership to their members. They should be grateful to the US cash from Silverstein and Levien and co.
Its common sense to those with some understanding of finance. There are plenty of those on the Trust board but they keep their own counsel. A bit like Boris and the appalling deficits at UK plc [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 14:47]
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So we do have money in the bank after player sales? | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 15:20 - Dec 27 with 1084 views | Chief |
Why start a thread named pros and cons if you're not prepared to acknowledge the cons? | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 17:26 - Dec 27 with 1065 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 15:07 - Dec 27 by Chief |
So we do have money in the bank after player sales? |
Of course the club have money in the bank after players sales. This money is used to pay things like bills and wages and playing surface changes and painting the stadium and covid testing presumably.
The club cannot afford to run out of money or it will go bankrupt. The owners and mr Winter have to budget to make sure that does not happen. Incoming will be even less next season but at least the last of the Premier league wages will be gone. Ayew £4m. I think the last parachute was £10m so they will have to find and extra £6m in savings.
The parachute system is a form of slow strangulation or a gastric band designed to slowly reduce the clubs income requirements. Clubs like Stoke and Aston Villa kept on spending. Stoke currently has huge debts to it owner. | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 17:36 - Dec 27 with 1058 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 17:26 - Dec 27 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Of course the club have money in the bank after players sales. This money is used to pay things like bills and wages and playing surface changes and painting the stadium and covid testing presumably.
The club cannot afford to run out of money or it will go bankrupt. The owners and mr Winter have to budget to make sure that does not happen. Incoming will be even less next season but at least the last of the Premier league wages will be gone. Ayew £4m. I think the last parachute was £10m so they will have to find and extra £6m in savings.
The parachute system is a form of slow strangulation or a gastric band designed to slowly reduce the clubs income requirements. Clubs like Stoke and Aston Villa kept on spending. Stoke currently has huge debts to it owner. |
Yea, cool.
And none of that invalidates what I've said on this thread. [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 17:37]
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:29 - Dec 27 with 1049 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 15:20 - Dec 27 by Chief |
Why start a thread named pros and cons if you're not prepared to acknowledge the cons? |
The cons are listed in the enclosure relating to Convertable loan notes. You either have not read it or not understood the text. You called the vital loan as a confidence trick. So I will spell it out for you.
The Trust by their prefered management and strategy have left themselves very vulnerable to everyday business practices if it was their intention to maiintain their % holding. They had to sell after 2015 it was a no brainer.
Mr Winters Xmass message could have read. "Hello Trust merry Xmass prepare to be diluted". To avoid dilution you must have cash and be prepared to invest it or pay back the loan in full in a defined time period. This is what good owners have to do.
If I can speculate as to what happened I would judge the US people would probably have asked Silverstein to share the loan to the club (money Winter has asked for ) and organised the loan as a CLN. Silverstein would have asked why do you not ask the Welsh owners to help them out with a cool £5m. The US owners would have told them the sellers do not want to buy more shares even at a discount and the Trust only has £800k and the members are unlikely to given them £4500 each.
Silverstein then says I will loan the money to Swansea as a CLN, if you match it and I end up owning 10% of the club. This issuing of new shares is likely to be at a discounted price to attract Mr Silverstein to contribute. It is still a rsik for him but the CLN gives him preference over the original shareholders and creditors if the club goes bust. All the cons apply to the original shareholders who keep their money in their wallet which at a time of Covid is good for them. The interest rate from the loan is very low much lower than that offered by a bank.
The vital issue is the valuation of the shares if they are converted. They will be sold at a discounted price according to the enclosed text. This will affect the % shareholding of those who have no cash to invest. As I understand it from the text the Trust must have already agreed this valuation with the US people who will have asked the 21% shareholder do you want us to give this money to Mr Winter or not?
The US people have injected a £5m loan into the club "to match that injected by Silverstein" who may have also invested £5m or a 'pro rata ed matching' of less perhaps £2or £3m to preserve Levien and cos 69% holding while given Silverstein 5% of the club. If Silverstein hs put in £5m it could be for 10% ownership i suspect which even sees Levien and co diluted.
The pros are that the club gets its money quickly at a low interest rate for use the cons are the existing shareholders get dilluted if the club do not give it back. It may sound unfair but the Trust were worth £21m in 2016 holding a massive 21% they cleary could not service. It they had reduced to 5% they could also buy new cheap shares with cash but only need £500k.
As the Convertable loan note is at a discounted championship price if it is converted in the Premier league thev CLN holders make significant financial gains of course. Its a gamble. There could be profits even if they sell the club in the championship based on annual football inflation in an Asian buyer comes in. This appears to be happening at Derby and Sunderland so is not an outlandish scenario as many think. Levien also has some very wealthy associates he has worked with before. [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 18:39]
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:44 - Dec 27 with 1035 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:29 - Dec 27 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The cons are listed in the enclosure relating to Convertable loan notes. You either have not read it or not understood the text. You called the vital loan as a confidence trick. So I will spell it out for you.
The Trust by their prefered management and strategy have left themselves very vulnerable to everyday business practices if it was their intention to maiintain their % holding. They had to sell after 2015 it was a no brainer.
Mr Winters Xmass message could have read. "Hello Trust merry Xmass prepare to be diluted". To avoid dilution you must have cash and be prepared to invest it or pay back the loan in full in a defined time period. This is what good owners have to do.
If I can speculate as to what happened I would judge the US people would probably have asked Silverstein to share the loan to the club (money Winter has asked for ) and organised the loan as a CLN. Silverstein would have asked why do you not ask the Welsh owners to help them out with a cool £5m. The US owners would have told them the sellers do not want to buy more shares even at a discount and the Trust only has £800k and the members are unlikely to given them £4500 each.
Silverstein then says I will loan the money to Swansea as a CLN, if you match it and I end up owning 10% of the club. This issuing of new shares is likely to be at a discounted price to attract Mr Silverstein to contribute. It is still a rsik for him but the CLN gives him preference over the original shareholders and creditors if the club goes bust. All the cons apply to the original shareholders who keep their money in their wallet which at a time of Covid is good for them. The interest rate from the loan is very low much lower than that offered by a bank.
The vital issue is the valuation of the shares if they are converted. They will be sold at a discounted price according to the enclosed text. This will affect the % shareholding of those who have no cash to invest. As I understand it from the text the Trust must have already agreed this valuation with the US people who will have asked the 21% shareholder do you want us to give this money to Mr Winter or not?
The US people have injected a £5m loan into the club "to match that injected by Silverstein" who may have also invested £5m or a 'pro rata ed matching' of less perhaps £2or £3m to preserve Levien and cos 69% holding while given Silverstein 5% of the club. If Silverstein hs put in £5m it could be for 10% ownership i suspect which even sees Levien and co diluted.
The pros are that the club gets its money quickly at a low interest rate for use the cons are the existing shareholders get dilluted if the club do not give it back. It may sound unfair but the Trust were worth £21m in 2016 holding a massive 21% they cleary could not service. It they had reduced to 5% they could also buy new cheap shares with cash but only need £500k.
As the Convertable loan note is at a discounted championship price if it is converted in the Premier league thev CLN holders make significant financial gains of course. Its a gamble. There could be profits even if they sell the club in the championship based on annual football inflation in an Asian buyer comes in. This appears to be happening at Derby and Sunderland so is not an outlandish scenario as many think. Levien also has some very wealthy associates he has worked with before. [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 18:39]
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- That they maybe and ive stated one obvious con relevant to us which you are currently choosing to ignore. The con I've described does not contradict anything in the general link you posted. What do you mean by confidence trick!?
- That's just yet another dig at the trust with no real relevance to the topic.
- same for the next one with added glee from you due to your personal vendetta against the trust.
- How do you know Winter asked for this? Winters words and justifications for selling Rodon when we did&for the obvious reduced fee was to tie us over during this period of reduced income. He also stated around that time that the club had no debt and were in a good position to see it through. That was before this loan came to fruition. But now he thinks we need an extra £10million!? The rest of that is complete conjecture. There is no evidence that any of the other shareholders were we asked to put money.
- the rest i don't disagree with. Although my cons remain prominent whether these loans remain as loans or are converted leading to dilution for some. Its a gamble for the club. One which I'd rather the club not have taken and frankly i don't think needed to be taken. | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 18:51 - Dec 27 with 1032 views | Chief |
If we don't go up this season what happens then? Are they going to be lending the club more money (de facto increasing debt)?
Or putting more money in and diluting smaller shareholders again, but increasing the amount the Americans will have put in overall and therefore increase the amount that they'll want back?
Neither are particularly good for the football club. Fantastic for the likes of Silverstein who may be able to call in his loan whenever he fancies with interest mind. | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:22 - Dec 27 with 1021 views | Garyjack |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 14:39 - Dec 27 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Having money in the bank after player sales is great. This is Swansea at present. Unfortuantely Swansea has annual deficits which means it is like a bear in winter living off its own fat. The recent loan /investment indicates it is a transition loan as the fat had run out. A winter stack of hidden nuts if you like. Ayew going will take 4m of the bills and hopefully some fans can return.
Indications of running out of money is late payment of wages. Failure to pay bills means bankruptcy. The Silverstein loan / investment is not only good it is vital. If Swansea goes bankrupt the Trusts roughly £8m valuation become worthless. It time the Trust started explaining the nuts and bolts of ownership to their members. They should be grateful to the US cash from Silverstein and Levien and co.
Its common sense to those with some understanding of finance. There are plenty of those on the Trust board but they keep their own counsel. A bit like Boris and the appalling deficits at UK plc [Post edited 27 Dec 2020 14:47]
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May i just make s small point of order? It would be the bears natural instinct to eat the stash of nuts before relying on it's fat reserves.
There endeth todays nature lesson. |  | | |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:45 - Dec 27 with 1003 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:22 - Dec 27 by Garyjack |
May i just make s small point of order? It would be the bears natural instinct to eat the stash of nuts before relying on it's fat reserves.
There endeth todays nature lesson. |
After eating its nuts where would said bear do its defecating? |  |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 20:23 - Dec 27 with 986 views | Garyjack |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 19:45 - Dec 27 by Joe_bradshaw |
After eating its nuts where would said bear do its defecating? |
He would keep 5% and 'invest' the remainder in the woods to avoid 'defecation dilution' when the other bears also pooh in the woods.
And that is called 'talking shite'! | | | |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 22:15 - Dec 27 with 944 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 20:23 - Dec 27 by Garyjack |
He would keep 5% and 'invest' the remainder in the woods to avoid 'defecation dilution' when the other bears also pooh in the woods.
And that is called 'talking shite'! |
You are ona thread started by yours truly, Gary. The educational information on Convertable loan Notes is provided for your convenience. Some seek to educate, other have nothing to offer other than self justification. | |
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 14:08 - Dec 28 with 845 views | Chief |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 12:09 - Dec 28 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Some peope read other roll smailey faces. I will answer any points made to me whatsoever. Chief's way of debate is confusing and its very hard work trying to answer his points I am not clear what points he wants answering. If he put them in a precise list and I will answer.
Oh by the way Gary. The Trust is going to get diluted and not before time. They will this time next year be 17% shareholders. Happy new year. |
Nonsense. I chronologically bullet point my response to everyone of your points. Ive given you the cons you are just refusing to address them.
And your second paragraph backs that up - you set up this thread purely to gloat because of your personal vendetta. A vendetta so far ingrained into your consciousness that you need to gloat about the trust potentially getting diluted. Any level headed impartial fan should be concerned by dilution. [Post edited 28 Dec 2020 14:53]
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| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 16:55 - Dec 28 with 823 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| What is a convertable loan note? Pros and cons on 14:08 - Dec 28 by Chief |
Nonsense. I chronologically bullet point my response to everyone of your points. Ive given you the cons you are just refusing to address them.
And your second paragraph backs that up - you set up this thread purely to gloat because of your personal vendetta. A vendetta so far ingrained into your consciousness that you need to gloat about the trust potentially getting diluted. Any level headed impartial fan should be concerned by dilution. [Post edited 28 Dec 2020 14:53]
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Dillution means investment. Investment means survival. Dillution of owners with no cash is a good thing in my book. The Trust had nothing to offer the club under its previous leadership at least.
I do not know which point you need answering. Please can you resubmit and I will respond. | |
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