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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 13:37 - Aug 6 by Lohengrin
Looking at the OP through something of a metaphysical lens you have to wonder who it is could possibly be put on trial? The centenarian that may be wheeled into the dock perhaps bears a very slight physical resemblance to the eighteen-year-old, indoctrinated fanatic that was but after the passage of eighty-odd years that boy has long since ceased to exist.
That’s not to downplay for one second the enormity of the crimes committed during the second war rather to question our notions around justice and punishment.
Totally agree, but the word Nazi is overused and very much dilutes the real meaning, But we’ve bagged one at last 😉
A great believer in taking anything you like to wherever you want to.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 14:09 - Aug 6 by Dr_Parnassus
I didn't suggest you did.
But I was trying to get a feeling of the numbers behind your view that there are ''lots''. You put 5000 Nazi's on a train, you could say there are lots of them on that train.
But 5000 in among a population of 328 million and its no longer ''lots'', they become a distinct rarity.
The NAZI party started off with just a handful in the German beer halls. I'm not suggesting anything like this could happen again, but 5,000 organised Neo Nazis, plus they would have sympathisers and many more who haven't made themselves know would account for a lot more than the 5k
[Post edited 7 Aug 2021 9:57]
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 11:43 - Aug 7 with 974 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 09:56 - Aug 7 by controversial_jack
The NAZI party started off with just a handful in the German beer halls. I'm not suggesting anything like this could happen again, but 5,000 organised Neo Nazis, plus they would have sympathisers and many more who haven't made themselves know would account for a lot more than the 5k
[Post edited 7 Aug 2021 9:57]
That would just be a guess though wouldn’t it, because you are describing them as people who don’t make themselves known, which means you can’t know either.
If 5000 Nazis started the Nazi party then at the time it started it would be inaccurate to say there were loads of them in the world. How many there went on to be is an irrelevance.
People overstate how many of these fringe groups there are. It happens on both sides and the Muslims get it all the time with people accusing them of having jihadists everywhere. It’s not helpful.
It causes a false sense of fear and demonises parts of a society.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 13:37 - Aug 6 by Lohengrin
Looking at the OP through something of a metaphysical lens you have to wonder who it is could possibly be put on trial? The centenarian that may be wheeled into the dock perhaps bears a very slight physical resemblance to the eighteen-year-old, indoctrinated fanatic that was but after the passage of eighty-odd years that boy has long since ceased to exist.
That’s not to downplay for one second the enormity of the crimes committed during the second war rather to question our notions around justice and punishment.
In which case you’d never give a life sentence and definitely never execute.
Same applies.
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 09:58 - Aug 8 with 898 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 11:43 - Aug 7 by Dr_Parnassus
That would just be a guess though wouldn’t it, because you are describing them as people who don’t make themselves known, which means you can’t know either.
If 5000 Nazis started the Nazi party then at the time it started it would be inaccurate to say there were loads of them in the world. How many there went on to be is an irrelevance.
People overstate how many of these fringe groups there are. It happens on both sides and the Muslims get it all the time with people accusing them of having jihadists everywhere. It’s not helpful.
It causes a false sense of fear and demonises parts of a society.
22 million Americans support Neo Nazis policies. so if any I understated the amount - that's not to say they are active, but just supporters.
If it demonises that part of society, then good let's have more of it.
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 12:10 - Aug 9 with 858 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 09:58 - Aug 8 by controversial_jack
22 million Americans support Neo Nazis policies. so if any I understated the amount - that's not to say they are active, but just supporters.
If it demonises that part of society, then good let's have more of it.
That’s a very broad and misleading thing to say, which is exactly what I was getting at. You are taking things and attributing it to people that may well not identify as that at all, or indeed share the same fundamental beliefs.
This is becoming a massive issue in society and why everyone is calling everyone a Nazi and making such ridiculous comments like “there are loads of them”. There aren’t loads of them at all, they are a fringe group of radicals that you would probably never come into contact with in your daily life. Same goes for jihadists.
So Which neo Nazi policy specifically do 22 million people in America support? Because supporting a political policy that another group or political ideologues do, doesn’t make you one.
That’s like saying the democrats support Nazi policies because they believe in socialisation of healthcare.
If you think there are 22 million Nazis and/or Nazi supporters in America, then you are barking mad. Quite literally.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 12:10 - Aug 9 by Dr_Parnassus
That’s a very broad and misleading thing to say, which is exactly what I was getting at. You are taking things and attributing it to people that may well not identify as that at all, or indeed share the same fundamental beliefs.
This is becoming a massive issue in society and why everyone is calling everyone a Nazi and making such ridiculous comments like “there are loads of them”. There aren’t loads of them at all, they are a fringe group of radicals that you would probably never come into contact with in your daily life. Same goes for jihadists.
So Which neo Nazi policy specifically do 22 million people in America support? Because supporting a political policy that another group or political ideologues do, doesn’t make you one.
That’s like saying the democrats support Nazi policies because they believe in socialisation of healthcare.
If you think there are 22 million Nazis and/or Nazi supporters in America, then you are barking mad. Quite literally.
It was a poll in the US reported in 2017, that 9 percent support the Neo nazis and white supremacist views
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 17:30 - Aug 9 with 790 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 16:44 - Aug 9 by controversial_jack
It was a poll in the US reported in 2017, that 9 percent support the Neo nazis and white supremacist views
“The survey was conducted from Aug. 16 to 20, polling 1,014 adults across the country over cellphones and landlines.”
So you have equated 91 people who said they were acceptable… and extrapolated that to mean 22 million
We have no idea who was contacted for a view, in what area, from what political background, what question was asked, the reason they gave such an answer, how truthful the answers were. Nothing.
Some of those 91 people may be saying they support free speech and find all views should be acceptable in terms of being able to be stated. Some may have said it because they were annoyed someone was cold calling them asking them such questions and as a result giving them the perceived “troll” answer to their question.
It’s this level of absurdity and intentional over exaggerating of serious and emotive subjects that I’m talking about. It’s lunacy.
This is why I always ask for specifics, it’s far too easy to make a general claim or accusation without offering any context. The vast majority of the time these claims will never be what they appear to want to represent after scrutiny.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2021 17:55]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 17:30 - Aug 9 by Dr_Parnassus
“The survey was conducted from Aug. 16 to 20, polling 1,014 adults across the country over cellphones and landlines.”
So you have equated 91 people who said they were acceptable… and extrapolated that to mean 22 million
We have no idea who was contacted for a view, in what area, from what political background, what question was asked, the reason they gave such an answer, how truthful the answers were. Nothing.
Some of those 91 people may be saying they support free speech and find all views should be acceptable in terms of being able to be stated. Some may have said it because they were annoyed someone was cold calling them asking them such questions and as a result giving them the perceived “troll” answer to their question.
It’s this level of absurdity and intentional over exaggerating of serious and emotive subjects that I’m talking about. It’s lunacy.
This is why I always ask for specifics, it’s far too easy to make a general claim or accusation without offering any context. The vast majority of the time these claims will never be what they appear to want to represent after scrutiny.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2021 17:55]
They extrapolated the results nationwide.They questioned over 1,000 and 91 said they would support them. Yes, it's a small sample, but It's what they do with all polls as it would be difficult to survey 320 million
[Post edited 9 Aug 2021 18:47]
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 18:57 - Aug 9 with 758 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 18:41 - Aug 9 by controversial_jack
They extrapolated the results nationwide.They questioned over 1,000 and 91 said they would support them. Yes, it's a small sample, but It's what they do with all polls as it would be difficult to survey 320 million
[Post edited 9 Aug 2021 18:47]
Which is why those kind of "polls" have such a bad reputation.
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 21:52 - Aug 9 with 744 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 18:41 - Aug 9 by controversial_jack
They extrapolated the results nationwide.They questioned over 1,000 and 91 said they would support them. Yes, it's a small sample, but It's what they do with all polls as it would be difficult to survey 320 million
[Post edited 9 Aug 2021 18:47]
Yeah, you can’t do that over such questions. It’s ridiculous. You have turned 91 people of which you don’t know what they were asked, on indeed why they answered and turned it into 22 million.
The reason for you not being able to do that is simple.
If I asked Keith to put up a poll “are bananas human beings”, yes or no.
Without question you would get some yes answers. If you then extrapolated that out to the population of the U.K. (dependant on how many did click yes) you could then create a headline saying 20 million people in the U.K. think bananas are humans in disguise. I reckon it would be close to 40% answering yes.
Do it in the states and it becomes even more crazy with their population of 328 million and you get headlines like “130 million people think bananas are humans in disguise”.
Just like there aren’t 130m people that are banana conspiracy theorists; there aren’t 22m Nazis in America.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 21:52 - Aug 9 by controversial_jack
Is that why sociologists and data analysts use them?
Whether they use them or not is irrelevant, they are clearly inaccurate.
I don’t think there is a single question that exists in which I could get all 1000 people asked to answer with the obvious answer, even though I know 100% of them know and believe it.
Make up any question you can think of. “Do fish have wardrobes under the sea and get dressed up when we aren’t looking”
If I rang 1000 random people and asked that question, I can guarantee 50 people would give me a yes answer or an answer I can perceive to be yes like “why not”. At least 50, im probably understating that figure.
Then I take that and say 5% of the world think fish wear clothes.
The obvious error with it, is that even 1 person answering that way then represents 328,000 people in a country the size of America, I can present as having that 'firm belief'.
So knowing you won’t be able to get 100% directed to one answer regardless of what it is, I can claim there are AT LEAST 328,000 of anything I choose in America. Because at the very minimum, 1 person will always give me the answer I want for whatever reason that may be.
It’s a journalistic technique to twist reality to push whatever narrative they find rewarding at that specific time.
Which is why you get the following:-
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 8:03]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 02:07 - Aug 10 by Dr_Parnassus
Whether they use them or not is irrelevant, they are clearly inaccurate.
I don’t think there is a single question that exists in which I could get all 1000 people asked to answer with the obvious answer, even though I know 100% of them know and believe it.
Make up any question you can think of. “Do fish have wardrobes under the sea and get dressed up when we aren’t looking”
If I rang 1000 random people and asked that question, I can guarantee 50 people would give me a yes answer or an answer I can perceive to be yes like “why not”. At least 50, im probably understating that figure.
Then I take that and say 5% of the world think fish wear clothes.
The obvious error with it, is that even 1 person answering that way then represents 328,000 people in a country the size of America, I can present as having that 'firm belief'.
So knowing you won’t be able to get 100% directed to one answer regardless of what it is, I can claim there are AT LEAST 328,000 of anything I choose in America. Because at the very minimum, 1 person will always give me the answer I want for whatever reason that may be.
It’s a journalistic technique to twist reality to push whatever narrative they find rewarding at that specific time.
Which is why you get the following:-
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 8:03]
That's how it works, whether you like it or not. They would have identified the people they questioned as being a good cross section of the population, it wouldn't have been random
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 11:06 - Aug 10 with 648 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 09:52 - Aug 10 by controversial_jack
That's how it works, whether you like it or not. They would have identified the people they questioned as being a good cross section of the population, it wouldn't have been random
That's how they did it you mean? But that's not how it ''works'', clearly.
It patently doesn't work, for all the reasons explained to you. Liking it or not is irrelevant.
You have taken 91 people (which accounts for less than 2 people per State) who gave an answer to a question you don't know , for reasons you don't know... and from that said there are 22 million Nazi supporters in the States.
Utterly barmy. But I am sure despite your desire to be ''controversial'' you also know that.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 12:00]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 11:52 - Aug 10 by Dr_Parnassus
That's how they did it you mean? But that's not how it ''works'', clearly.
It patently doesn't work, for all the reasons explained to you. Liking it or not is irrelevant.
You have taken 91 people (which accounts for less than 2 people per State) who gave an answer to a question you don't know , for reasons you don't know... and from that said there are 22 million Nazi supporters in the States.
Utterly barmy. But I am sure despite your desire to be ''controversial'' you also know that.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 12:00]
The NSDAP arose against a very, very specific backdrop among people who had undergone a very specific experience at a very specific moment in time. That confluence isn’t remotely repeatable. Any suggestion to the contrary is to stray into dystopian science fiction.
To point at a minuscule handful of the maladjusted and claim they are some sort of coming storm is simply to underscore that they, and quite possibly you, aren’t quite right in the head.
An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 12:28 - Aug 10 with 615 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 12:11 - Aug 10 by Lohengrin
The NSDAP arose against a very, very specific backdrop among people who had undergone a very specific experience at a very specific moment in time. That confluence isn’t remotely repeatable. Any suggestion to the contrary is to stray into dystopian science fiction.
To point at a minuscule handful of the maladjusted and claim they are some sort of coming storm is simply to underscore that they, and quite possibly you, aren’t quite right in the head.
Spot on, it's an absolutely bonkers suggestion.
It is simply a political tool to write your own headlines. I can create whatever storm I like by using that fraudulent technique, someone will always give me the answer I want depending on how I word it (or indeed interpret their answer) and then I times it by as much as possible for greatest shock factor while saying its an accurate representation of the country.
These polls have been used for years to sway opinion, even suppress voting habits and alter reality. There is a somewhat of a movement to ban them, which I am not against in the slightest, especially in Election years. They are dangerous, inaccurate and downright ludicrous at times.
This a prime example.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 12:39]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 11:52 - Aug 10 by Dr_Parnassus
That's how they did it you mean? But that's not how it ''works'', clearly.
It patently doesn't work, for all the reasons explained to you. Liking it or not is irrelevant.
You have taken 91 people (which accounts for less than 2 people per State) who gave an answer to a question you don't know , for reasons you don't know... and from that said there are 22 million Nazi supporters in the States.
Utterly barmy. But I am sure despite your desire to be ''controversial'' you also know that.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 12:00]
So, how do you think it works? If they surveyed 10,000, or 100,000, which is impractical, the results would be very similar to what they are when surveying 1,000
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 22:07 - Aug 10 with 549 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 21:41 - Aug 10 by controversial_jack
So, how do you think it works? If they surveyed 10,000, or 100,000, which is impractical, the results would be very similar to what they are when surveying 1,000
How do I think it works?
I don’t think it works. For the reasons I just gave… and the fact that they notoriously don’t work to a point where people are discussing banning them altogether in election years due to the impact their inaccurate nonsense has on the mentality of the voter.
They are political tools to take a handful of people and turn it into tens of millions. They have become fraudulent journalistic tools too, as you are showing.
Again, you have taken 91 people (less than 2 per State) who answered a question that you have no idea what it was, for reasons you don’t know - and from that said there is 22 million Nazi supporters in the States. Almost 1 every 10 people.
It’s barking. Untrue. Dangerous. Nonsensical.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 22:07 - Aug 10 by Dr_Parnassus
How do I think it works?
I don’t think it works. For the reasons I just gave… and the fact that they notoriously don’t work to a point where people are discussing banning them altogether in election years due to the impact their inaccurate nonsense has on the mentality of the voter.
They are political tools to take a handful of people and turn it into tens of millions. They have become fraudulent journalistic tools too, as you are showing.
Again, you have taken 91 people (less than 2 per State) who answered a question that you have no idea what it was, for reasons you don’t know - and from that said there is 22 million Nazi supporters in the States. Almost 1 every 10 people.
It’s barking. Untrue. Dangerous. Nonsensical.
You are either clueless about this unwilling to admit that you are wrong.
The use of data these days is everything. Every voter in the US is targeted by data analysts and scientists.They know their opinions, their purchasing habits, their political views their friends, the lot.The US has less strict data protection than many western nations
Every election, referendum, and the yanks hove loads of those, is targeted by data experts and scientists. There was probably no need to even have a poll on this, as it would all have been known anyway.
It has nothing to do with journalists at all. Companies like Cambridge Analytica - if they are still going, do all the data collecting and advise on political campaigns for profit, They are extremely accurate too, often as much as 95%
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 23:06 - Aug 10 with 534 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 22:56 - Aug 10 by controversial_jack
You are either clueless about this unwilling to admit that you are wrong.
The use of data these days is everything. Every voter in the US is targeted by data analysts and scientists.They know their opinions, their purchasing habits, their political views their friends, the lot.The US has less strict data protection than many western nations
Every election, referendum, and the yanks hove loads of those, is targeted by data experts and scientists. There was probably no need to even have a poll on this, as it would all have been known anyway.
It has nothing to do with journalists at all. Companies like Cambridge Analytica - if they are still going, do all the data collecting and advise on political campaigns for profit, They are extremely accurate too, often as much as 95%
Politics is part of my daily work, as is interpreting political related data. I know exactly how it works, which is why I know exactly how inaccurate it is. It’s my job to know.
Of course there didn’t need to be a poll for it, it’s obviously a fringe radical opinion that is extremely rare and getting rarer, that’s all anyone needs to know. Common sense is all you need.
But there did need to be a poll in the eyes of the journalists and universities because they have rhetoric to push. Note that you haven’t seen any University or media outlet conducting polls of 1000 people on whether they agree with extreme leftist violence…. despite its visible and relentless daily occurrences last year.
The reason for that is because they would then be held accountable for not reporting consistently considering that in the 1000 asked, you may well then have to say “100 million extreme leftists in the US” or “100 million Maoist/Mussolini supporters in the US” depending on how you would like to frame your narrative… which isn’t good for the agenda.
I could get any % I want, to any question I choose, depending on how I word my question and what my interpretation of answers is.
You are talking about an opinion poll on a broad subject and using binary political methods (vote person A or B) and assuming they are the same - they aren’t.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 23:32]
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 23:06 - Aug 10 by Dr_Parnassus
Politics is part of my daily work, as is interpreting political related data. I know exactly how it works, which is why I know exactly how inaccurate it is. It’s my job to know.
Of course there didn’t need to be a poll for it, it’s obviously a fringe radical opinion that is extremely rare and getting rarer, that’s all anyone needs to know. Common sense is all you need.
But there did need to be a poll in the eyes of the journalists and universities because they have rhetoric to push. Note that you haven’t seen any University or media outlet conducting polls of 1000 people on whether they agree with extreme leftist violence…. despite its visible and relentless daily occurrences last year.
The reason for that is because they would then be held accountable for not reporting consistently considering that in the 1000 asked, you may well then have to say “100 million extreme leftists in the US” or “100 million Maoist/Mussolini supporters in the US” depending on how you would like to frame your narrative… which isn’t good for the agenda.
I could get any % I want, to any question I choose, depending on how I word my question and what my interpretation of answers is.
You are talking about an opinion poll on a broad subject and using binary political methods (vote person A or B) and assuming they are the same - they aren’t.
[Post edited 10 Aug 2021 23:32]
Political and other data these days is very accurate , up to 95% in some cases, as I have already stated.
Data today has and will shape the world. I don't like it, but there it is.
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The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 13:14 - Aug 11 with 491 views
The appropriate use of the word Nazi on 13:02 - Aug 11 by controversial_jack
Political and other data these days is very accurate , up to 95% in some cases, as I have already stated.
Data today has and will shape the world. I don't like it, but there it is.
I doesn’t matter if you stated it previously, it isn’t accurate. Hence why there are calls to do away with it, it’s nonsense.
And that’s just for binary answers. Let alone your version which is asking views which can be asked, answered and interpreted in any way the person wishes.
It’s fraudulent. Liking it or not is irrelevant, doesn’t come into it.
Same as the “50% of Republicans support the insurrection at the Capitol” headline (after asking 1000 people a question they didn’t specify). Equally as ludicrous, designed for political headlines.
You will just have to deal with it I’m afraid.
Swansea Independent Poster of the Year 2021 and 2022.
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