| Spending a penny 19:32 - Jul 21 with 1879 views | britferry |
I wouldn't even buy one of them, sounds like a con to me...
Cardiff move to cut debts by £19m
Cardiff City are looking to convert another £19m of debt into equity as part of renewed attempts to tackle their accounts.
The club has issued 1.9billion new shares at 1p each, with the announcement coming quietly through Companies House on Tuesday. In principal, sources claim the move will effectively wipe £19m off the club's overall debts, which according to their latest accounts stand at £109.5m for the year ending May 31, 2021.
It follows a similar move made in February, where owner Vincent Tan converted another £6m of the £61m owed to him after the club's debts grew due to the financial impact of the coronavirus pandemic.
Chairman Mehmet Dalman at one stage stated Tan had effectively to put his hand in his pocket to the tune of nearly £3m a month to keep the club running, putting the brakes on a pledge made by the Malaysian back in 2016, where he insisted he'd try and make Cardiff debt-free within five years.
But this latest bid to convert further debt into equity suggests he's perhaps keen to push ahead with that pledge.
Cardiff have been approached by Wales Online for a comment.
It's understood that while the new move will help to cut the club's debts, in likelihood it will have little impact on City's transfer efforts this summer.
Cardiff boss Steve Morison has already been busy in the transfer market, having brought 12 new players on board, and is still keen on bringing in a new striker before the start of the season, which kicks off with a tough home clash with newly-relegated Norwich City.
This latest announcement is unlikely to have any bearing on that search, although there is believed to be confidence among the hierarchy and Morison himself that attacking reinforcements will be brought on board, although it will more than likely be on loan. |  |
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| Spending a penny on 19:49 - Jul 21 with 1567 views | GixerJack |
I’m not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I would have thought that this would reduce the overall value of the club |  | | |
| Spending a penny on 20:28 - Jul 21 with 1517 views | jasper_T |
| Spending a penny on 19:49 - Jul 21 by GixerJack |
I’m not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but I would have thought that this would reduce the overall value of the club |
Why would it? They're writing off £19m of their massive ownership debt, it doesn't really matter how many shares are being created (as long as they all belong to Tan and there's no shareholding conflict). The business is worth £19m more than it was previously. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:28 - Jul 21 with 1458 views | KeithHaynes |
| Spending a penny on 20:28 - Jul 21 by jasper_T |
Why would it? They're writing off £19m of their massive ownership debt, it doesn't really matter how many shares are being created (as long as they all belong to Tan and there's no shareholding conflict). The business is worth £19m more than it was previously. |
How would that work with the swans Jasper ?
Where’s chief ?
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| Spending a penny on 21:31 - Jul 21 with 1440 views | dantheswansman |
Even with all that debt they still only charge 3 quid for their friendly matches online while PL teams are streaming them for free on YouTube and Swansea City charge 6 quid a pop, friendlies should be free, its something to give back to the supporters but clearly fleecing the fans starts in the pre season for some clubs |  | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:33 - Jul 21 with 1436 views | KeithHaynes |
| Spending a penny on 21:31 - Jul 21 by dantheswansman |
Even with all that debt they still only charge 3 quid for their friendly matches online while PL teams are streaming them for free on YouTube and Swansea City charge 6 quid a pop, friendlies should be free, its something to give back to the supporters but clearly fleecing the fans starts in the pre season for some clubs |
Swans couldn’t stream the Charlton game, had to rely on their stream. | |
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| Spending a penny on 21:35 - Jul 21 with 1424 views | dantheswansman |
| Spending a penny on 21:33 - Jul 21 by KeithHaynes |
Swans couldn’t stream the Charlton game, had to rely on their stream. |
They have it up for 6 quid on the official site though | | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:36 - Jul 21 with 1419 views | KeithHaynes |
| Spending a penny on 21:35 - Jul 21 by dantheswansman |
They have it up for 6 quid on the official site though |
Had to use their stream or not have one is the clubs response ðŸ’
Mind you the club are advertising for media staff …
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| Spending a penny on 21:39 - Jul 21 with 1397 views | Whiterockin |
| Spending a penny on 21:35 - Jul 21 by dantheswansman |
They have it up for 6 quid on the official site though |
In friendlies the streaming price is dictated by the home club. We are donating all money raised to charity again. |  | | |
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| Spending a penny on 21:42 - Jul 21 with 1383 views | dantheswansman |
| Spending a penny on 21:36 - Jul 21 by KeithHaynes |
Had to use their stream or not have one is the clubs response ðŸ’
Mind you the club are advertising for media staff …
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Never mind media staff, the club need to fix the crap facilities other clubs commentary team have to use at the stadium, lost count at the amount of times i have been watching a stream from the opposition where they have said the equipment is trash and sorry for this and that as its out of their control, to be fair i haven't had the same happen on our own official stream so don't know what to make of that, either way the club are taking the proverbial pee with their pricing when other clubs in our league have given all their friendlies away for free | | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:43 - Jul 21 with 1370 views | Whiterockin |
| Spending a penny on 21:42 - Jul 21 by dantheswansman |
Never mind media staff, the club need to fix the crap facilities other clubs commentary team have to use at the stadium, lost count at the amount of times i have been watching a stream from the opposition where they have said the equipment is trash and sorry for this and that as its out of their control, to be fair i haven't had the same happen on our own official stream so don't know what to make of that, either way the club are taking the proverbial pee with their pricing when other clubs in our league have given all their friendlies away for free |
See my post above. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:48 - Jul 21 with 1343 views | dantheswansman |
| Spending a penny on 21:43 - Jul 21 by Whiterockin |
See my post above. |
Ok so we are the only club doing that? because we are charging more than any of the other clubs i have looked at, most are free, some are 3 quid and we are a fiver one day and then 6 quid the next, doesn't make it any easier to swallow when clubs worse off than us are not charging anywhere near as much | | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:53 - Jul 21 with 1322 views | Whiterockin |
| Spending a penny on 21:48 - Jul 21 by dantheswansman |
Ok so we are the only club doing that? because we are charging more than any of the other clubs i have looked at, most are free, some are 3 quid and we are a fiver one day and then 6 quid the next, doesn't make it any easier to swallow when clubs worse off than us are not charging anywhere near as much |
Then blame the home clubs they are setting the price, we agree or no stream unless you pay the home club. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 21:54 - Jul 21 with 1319 views | KeithHaynes |
| Spending a penny on 21:42 - Jul 21 by dantheswansman |
Never mind media staff, the club need to fix the crap facilities other clubs commentary team have to use at the stadium, lost count at the amount of times i have been watching a stream from the opposition where they have said the equipment is trash and sorry for this and that as its out of their control, to be fair i haven't had the same happen on our own official stream so don't know what to make of that, either way the club are taking the proverbial pee with their pricing when other clubs in our league have given all their friendlies away for free |
My point is the club are advertising for quite a number.
Maybe the issue is no media staff to do it ? | |
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| Spending a penny on 21:57 - Jul 21 with 1297 views | dantheswansman |
| Spending a penny on 21:54 - Jul 21 by KeithHaynes |
My point is the club are advertising for quite a number.
Maybe the issue is no media staff to do it ? |
Could be, i mean at one point there were no replays at all on our official streams, there would be a goal and no replay at all, things did improve but not that significantly, i think our streams are pretty bad when compared to others, at least they are looking to improve that though | | | |
| Spending a penny on 22:08 - Jul 21 with 1248 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Spending a penny on 21:28 - Jul 21 by KeithHaynes |
How would that work with the swans Jasper ?
Where’s chief ?
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| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Spending a penny on 22:08 - Jul 21 with 1246 views | jasper_T |
| Spending a penny on 21:28 - Jul 21 by KeithHaynes |
How would that work with the swans Jasper ?
Where’s chief ?
This post has been edited by an administrator |
I would imagine the £13m CLN has details already in place over how many new shares each of the contributors would end up with should they convert that debt into equity. Shareholders not getting new shares would see their % diluted, apart from the Trust's special 5%. The club gains a stronger financial position as the £13m debt (and interest payments) disappears.
It's always more complicated when multiple parties have a stake in a business/asset. Siblings inherit their parents' house and it's war. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 22:50 - Jul 21 with 1188 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Spending a penny on 22:08 - Jul 21 by jasper_T |
I would imagine the £13m CLN has details already in place over how many new shares each of the contributors would end up with should they convert that debt into equity. Shareholders not getting new shares would see their % diluted, apart from the Trust's special 5%. The club gains a stronger financial position as the £13m debt (and interest payments) disappears.
It's always more complicated when multiple parties have a stake in a business/asset. Siblings inherit their parents' house and it's war. |
The 5% special shareholding really has not been explained to the members as far as I can see.
These are the things all the members should be aware of and seen the answers in writing.
a) Does the 5% accrue dividends?
b) Under what circumstances can the Trust sell these 5% of shares?.
c) In the event of a 100% sale of the club, are all the Trusts shares subject to a tag on agreement or drag on agreement.?
If the they do not accrue dividends and they cannot be sold they are technically worthless. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Spending a penny on 23:40 - Jul 21 with 1143 views | GixerJack |
| Spending a penny on 20:28 - Jul 21 by jasper_T |
Why would it? They're writing off £19m of their massive ownership debt, it doesn't really matter how many shares are being created (as long as they all belong to Tan and there's no shareholding conflict). The business is worth £19m more than it was previously. |
Like I said I’m not an expert but it strikes me that all people will be doing is buying debt (albeit at a penny) which they’re not going to get back anytime soon | | | |
| Spending a penny on 23:50 - Jul 21 with 1114 views | jasper_T |
| Spending a penny on 23:40 - Jul 21 by GixerJack |
Like I said I’m not an expert but it strikes me that all people will be doing is buying debt (albeit at a penny) which they’re not going to get back anytime soon |
The club is paying back debt with pieces of paper they've just created, because Tan realises there's no way a Championship football club was ever going to be able to pay it back with actual money. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 00:09 - Jul 22 with 1095 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Spending a penny on 23:40 - Jul 21 by GixerJack |
Like I said I’m not an expert but it strikes me that all people will be doing is buying debt (albeit at a penny) which they’re not going to get back anytime soon |
Another word for it is investment. Swansea fans have been screaming for investment for years now and when it arrives they do not recognise it or acknowledge it.
The CLN when converted is 'Investment' of £13m. Much of it has already been spent. This is why Darling was bought before Downes was sold. Chief and Chong and others want it to stay as a debt as their narrative is that the US people would never invest. The Trust reason for a legal case was to escape the US "asset strippers" and get their money out before the club hit league 2. It was a myth. The CLN smashed the toxic narrative.
The Trust have proved themselves as anti Investment which is what I called them 6 years ago. They do not want to invest in Swansea city and never will again. They will allow themselves to be diluted to 5% and then there is no point in them investing anyway.
The 5% "protection" costs the other shareholder nothing. For the Trust to be diluted to 5% the other investors must invest about £120m extra into the club at a Championship valuation. This will not happen. [Post edited 22 Jul 2022 0:10]
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| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Spending a penny on 00:23 - Jul 22 with 1077 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Spending a penny on 23:50 - Jul 21 by jasper_T |
The club is paying back debt with pieces of paper they've just created, because Tan realises there's no way a Championship football club was ever going to be able to pay it back with actual money. |
Tan is paying the debt back himself and giving himself back new share certificates in return.
He is being taken to court by another owner who has lost money too by being diluted. The value of the club has not increased through Tan's investments so the other owner has lost a lot of money as the debts piled up.
Assume he held say 10% of a £50m club (£5m) in 2015 but now owns perhaps 1% of of £50m club £500k losing £4.5m. He also owes his share of the existing debts. | |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Spending a penny on 09:52 - Jul 22 with 938 views | jasper_T |
| Spending a penny on 00:23 - Jul 22 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Tan is paying the debt back himself and giving himself back new share certificates in return.
He is being taken to court by another owner who has lost money too by being diluted. The value of the club has not increased through Tan's investments so the other owner has lost a lot of money as the debts piled up.
Assume he held say 10% of a £50m club (£5m) in 2015 but now owns perhaps 1% of of £50m club £500k losing £4.5m. He also owes his share of the existing debts. |
I didn't realise they had other shareholders. I knew they owed other parties money in the form of long-term interest-paying loans, but assumed he had 100% control of the club and never looked at it more closely than that.
Creating millions of penny shares is naturally going to dilute the % of other shareholders massively if they don't get a chance to buy in/write of their own debts in kind. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 10:45 - Jul 22 with 899 views | shaggyrogers |
| Spending a penny on 09:52 - Jul 22 by jasper_T |
I didn't realise they had other shareholders. I knew they owed other parties money in the form of long-term interest-paying loans, but assumed he had 100% control of the club and never looked at it more closely than that.
Creating millions of penny shares is naturally going to dilute the % of other shareholders massively if they don't get a chance to buy in/write of their own debts in kind. |
I don't have any idea what percentage he owns but Michael Isaac has shares and is taking the club / tan to court . It has been going on awhile now but outcome due soon i think i read somewhere.
Steve Borley is still around. I think he had shares as well. I'm not sure if he has now. Companies house can give some info but can't be bothered to look. | | | |
| Spending a penny on 11:17 - Jul 22 with 877 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
Does this mean they can now afford to sign Bale and Ramsey because they absolutely love the club with all their heart and are utterly desperate to play for them? |  |
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