| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread 11:48 - Dec 20 with 4001 views | johnlangy |
I created yet another a new thread on Welsh Independence because I wanted to come at the argument with a different slant.
We have been continually told in the UK media that Wales is being subsidised by the English taxpayer to the tune of £13 billion a year. That figure comes from the difference between the two numbers they publish - what they claim to be Welsh Revenue and Welsh Expenditure.
If you believe what they say then I imagine you would find those figures embarrassing and you’d be desperate for the situation to be different.
So, if someone said that those figures are wrong and that I can prove that they’re wrong any Welsh person who is proud to be Welsh would want to see those figures to see if that person is correct. And they would WANT that person to be correct. Simple pride in your country would ensure that.
Recently Plaid Cymru appointed Professor John Doyle to investigate precisely what the financial situation would be in an Independent Wales. He used information from the Office of National Statistics to make his calculations and came up with a deficit of just £2.6 billion.
He came up with an extensive report explaining the details. But to save us buying a copy of the report and ploughing through page after page of stuff a bloke named David H Smith has created a youtube video in which he explains the details and even puts the numbers up on a white board to make it easy to follow. The video is titled ‘What is Cymru’s Deficit — Welsh Independence’.
If you were to look at the video there are a few things that could happen. You might argue that some of the numbers are wrong. You might argue that the logic is wrong. And you could make your case. On the other hand you might see that the numbers and logic are right. In which case you’d come to believe that Wales really can afford Independence.
But some posters on this site just dismissed the report out of hand. The Reason ? Because it was commissioned by Plaid Cymru. That’s it. No discussion. No argument. No logic. It actually makes complete sense that Plaid commissioned it. Because the Labour and Conservative parties would never have done so because they are pure unionist parties.
So why would those posters not want to look at the figures ? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that they don’t want to accept that the argument might make sense. That they actually want to believe that what they think is correct, that Wales is an economic basket case.
So there you have it. Rather than look at the extremely detailed information from an extensive report they prefer to believe just two numbers printed in the UK press. Just two numbers to explain the financial health of the £80 billion Welsh economy.
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:24 - Dec 20 with 1282 views | Whiterockin |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 16:58 - Dec 20 by Kilkennyjack |
The UK government impoverished Wales.
They did not care a damn.
If you believe that Mogg, Johnson and Farage care about Wales, then i am not sure you will ever understand.
As someone once said …. ‘You are called upon in defiance of shame, of honour, of truth, to deny the sufferings under which you groan, and to flatter the persecution which tramples you under foot’.
Never vote Tory. |
But in Wales more vote Tory than Plaid. This sort of blows many independence arguments out of the water. |  | | |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:48 - Dec 20 with 1246 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:24 - Dec 20 by Whiterockin |
But in Wales more vote Tory than Plaid. This sort of blows many independence arguments out of the water. |
Not at all, it means 75% of welsh voters are progressive voters. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:53 - Dec 20 with 1239 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:24 - Dec 20 by Wingstandwood |
QUARTER OF A CENTURY of devolution without Tory governance says it all for me. Here is another bit of something extra that the Tories are not at fault for!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ne |
The Tories wasted so much money that could have been spent on the NHS.
Never ever vote Tory. [Post edited 20 Dec 2022 17:54]
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 18:50 - Dec 20 with 1212 views | Catullus |
I can accept that in the current circumstances those figures are correct and we indeed are only 2.6 billion in deficit.
Thing is, if we went indy all those figures sould change. We would be partitining ourselves from England, our argets trading partner and we wouldn't be in the EU either. What kind of economic future does that bring?
If the UK leaving the EU was an act of self harm, what would us leaving the Uk but with no EU do to us?
Then take into account that we are always told Westminster short changes us. What would an indy Senedd do? How would they increase spending? If they did increase spending, they increase the deficit.
What currency would we use? If we were denied Sterling, we wouldn't have the Euro either so what would we use? Even Drakeford has asked that question and used it as a reason we shouldn't vote indy, though he did say we could have the conversation he never said he supported indy.
PS, I have no more desire to be a proud Welshman than I have to be a proud Brit. I am British AND Welsh, I dont need to be prideful but I do need politicians who run the country in a far better way than ANY of them currently do.
The Senedd is rubbish, Westminster is rubbish, I don't expect much argument there. These figures are possibly correct right now but they will be far from correct if we actually go indy. The deficit is bound to rise and we will have to pay the Uk our share of the national debt too. Jobs will definitely be lost from the civil service, the armed forces, from every business that trades with England (and the supply chain too) AND costs will rise just as they have since brexit. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 18:54 - Dec 20 with 1205 views | Whiterockin |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:48 - Dec 20 by Kilkennyjack |
Not at all, it means 75% of welsh voters are progressive voters. |
You are of course correct but the figure is closer to 80%. It does make you ask the question, why with all the faults you highlight voters in Wales still feel the Tories are a better option than Plaid. | | | |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:00 - Dec 20 with 1201 views | lifelong |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 16:02 - Dec 20 by onehunglow |
Tedious,isn't it.Rog. |
Yes, the 90 year old lady who fell downstairs and broke her hip at her home in Harringay and was told she had to wait 14 hours for an ambulance, must have found it tedious.
Have a look at some regions like the West Midlands and the North East and see what the hospital waiting lists are like there?
All NHS regions in the UK are really under pressure yet you and a few others get some sort perverse pleasure from continually knocking Wales.. too right it’s tedious. |  | | |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:09 - Dec 20 with 1191 views | builthjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:00 - Dec 20 by lifelong |
Yes, the 90 year old lady who fell downstairs and broke her hip at her home in Harringay and was told she had to wait 14 hours for an ambulance, must have found it tedious.
Have a look at some regions like the West Midlands and the North East and see what the hospital waiting lists are like there?
All NHS regions in the UK are really under pressure yet you and a few others get some sort perverse pleasure from continually knocking Wales.. too right it’s tedious. |
The same people knock Wales every day.
Yet either don’t know or conveniently forget what goes on in England every day.
I left London the other week, it took me 2 hours to get to Reading.
I went to Birmingham on Monday morning, it took me 2 hours to do 15 miles .
A relative was waiting on a trolley for 30 hours at Hereford A&E recently.
I could go on.
FACTS.
All we hear on here is the wales batterers. Every day. Tedious. [Post edited 20 Dec 2022 20:35]
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| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:12 - Dec 20 with 1183 views | Boundy |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:09 - Dec 20 by builthjack |
The same people knock Wales every day.
Yet either don’t know or conveniently forget what goes on in England every day.
I left London the other week, it took me 2 hours to get to Reading.
I went to Birmingham on Monday morning, it took me 2 hours to do 15 miles .
A relative was waiting on a trolley for 30 hours at Hereford A&E recently.
I could go on.
FACTS.
All we hear on here is the wales batterers. Every day. Tedious. [Post edited 20 Dec 2022 20:35]
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The thing is for most of us on here Wales is where we live , day in day out with the odd sojourn across the border , the whole of the UK is being screwed regardless . the difference being us poor saps are governed twice , once from Westminster , once from Cardiff , both in equal measures of incompetence and in some cases neglect | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:18 - Dec 20 with 1170 views | Catullus |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:09 - Dec 20 by builthjack |
The same people knock Wales every day.
Yet either don’t know or conveniently forget what goes on in England every day.
I left London the other week, it took me 2 hours to get to Reading.
I went to Birmingham on Monday morning, it took me 2 hours to do 15 miles .
A relative was waiting on a trolley for 30 hours at Hereford A&E recently.
I could go on.
FACTS.
All we hear on here is the wales batterers. Every day. Tedious. [Post edited 20 Dec 2022 20:35]
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Please don't get mixed up with the people who criticse Wales and those of us who are critical of the Senedd.
Wales, like the rest of the UK is where it is because of rubbish politicians. The Senedd is mostly in charge in Wales which is why I attack them. I argue against independence because I think it a bad idea, not because I hate Wales. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:23 - Dec 20 with 1163 views | builthjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:18 - Dec 20 by Catullus |
Please don't get mixed up with the people who criticse Wales and those of us who are critical of the Senedd.
Wales, like the rest of the UK is where it is because of rubbish politicians. The Senedd is mostly in charge in Wales which is why I attack them. I argue against independence because I think it a bad idea, not because I hate Wales. |
We could go on and on and on and on about the shite Westminster government, crap infrastructure, awful facilities etc etc.
But to go on every day gets tedious. | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:38 - Dec 20 with 1143 views | raynor94 |
Does anyone honestly believe that Drakeford and his stooge Price are doing a good job in running Wales.
Drakeford has gone missing in action since his tax payers jaunt to Qatar,.
Health is devolved to Wales, about time he stood up to be counted and sorted the Nurses strike out like Sturgeon in Scotland, and stop blaming the UK government |  |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:57 - Dec 20 with 1118 views | onehunglow |
“ knock Wales”
It’s getting worse. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:19 - Dec 20 with 1086 views | builthjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:30 - Dec 20 by Wingstandwood |
Aye them b@dgers on HTV 'Wales This Week' saying that Wales has 1960's standard road infrastructure. And turning down a Billion pounds to bring a section of it into the next century because "we do things differently in Wales".
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Wales haven’t got good infrastructure no, but England is certainly no better. | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:20 - Dec 20 with 1084 views | builthjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:57 - Dec 20 by onehunglow |
“ knock Wales”
It’s getting worse. |
It seems to be your full time job, on here knocking Wales and Swansea. | |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 21:49 - Dec 20 with 1044 views | BryanSwan |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:18 - Dec 20 by Catullus |
Please don't get mixed up with the people who criticse Wales and those of us who are critical of the Senedd.
Wales, like the rest of the UK is where it is because of rubbish politicians. The Senedd is mostly in charge in Wales which is why I attack them. I argue against independence because I think it a bad idea, not because I hate Wales. |
To be honest i find you to be pretty reasonable and find myself agreeing with a lot of what you post.
The Westminster government are a completely corrupt cabal just as much as the Welsh government are pretty incompetent.
The only way you and I differ is that I am pretty open to Indy, maybe it'd be easier to rectify our problems on a smaller scale. In reality even though i think Indy is possible and could be good, it could just as equally be bad depending on who is in charge. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 23:11 - Dec 20 with 1010 views | onehunglow |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:20 - Dec 20 by builthjack |
It seems to be your full time job, on here knocking Wales and Swansea. |
Not really simply saying the truth ,which often hurts .You’ve got quite a willing helper in Lifey . Give some others a try and it ll relieve the tedium | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 16:34 - Dec 21 with 935 views | Catullus |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 17:48 - Dec 20 by Kilkennyjack |
Not at all, it means 75% of welsh voters are progressive voters. |
Hardly a valid claim seeing as no more than 49% of the electorate have ever voted in the Senedd elections. it's not 75% of anything and even so, calling 37.5% o voters progressive when the majority of them vote Labour is a joke.
Labour are taking us backwards. The very sad thing is, I can't name a single Welsh politician whom I believe will take us forwards and please don't say Price, I'm eating. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:49 - Dec 21 with 889 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 16:34 - Dec 21 by Catullus |
Hardly a valid claim seeing as no more than 49% of the electorate have ever voted in the Senedd elections. it's not 75% of anything and even so, calling 37.5% o voters progressive when the majority of them vote Labour is a joke.
Labour are taking us backwards. The very sad thing is, I can't name a single Welsh politician whom I believe will take us forwards and please don't say Price, I'm eating. |
I could ask the same question of you ?
What Westmonster politician will ‘take wales forward’ ?
Johnson, May, Mogg, Mad Nads, evil Patel, idiot Rabb, fireplace salesperson Williamson, Javed, that Rishi bloke ….. no not only have the not helped Wales but their Brexit and HS2 has robbed Wales of prosperity. They dont care.
At least the Senedd Politicians consider Wales and try to help the people if Wales.
Thats a great place to start.
Your tired old union is doomed. Adapt or its dead. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:06 - Dec 21 with 886 views | Catullus |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 19:49 - Dec 21 by Kilkennyjack |
I could ask the same question of you ?
What Westmonster politician will ‘take wales forward’ ?
Johnson, May, Mogg, Mad Nads, evil Patel, idiot Rabb, fireplace salesperson Williamson, Javed, that Rishi bloke ….. no not only have the not helped Wales but their Brexit and HS2 has robbed Wales of prosperity. They dont care.
At least the Senedd Politicians consider Wales and try to help the people if Wales.
Thats a great place to start.
Your tired old union is doomed. Adapt or its dead. |
Wales voted leave, if we had been independent we would have left too.
I think Labour will win the next GE and while he's been wishy washy, Starmer is making the right noises, things me and you can agree on like binningthe HoL.
The Senedd politicians are as greedy and self serving as any other Uk poitician. You have fallen for the lines they spin is all. Is stoppingthe 200 quid winter fuel payment helping the poorest Welsh people. Is changng the electoral system without our consent helping us? Is refusing to improve infrastrucure helping us? Did his trip to Qatar help us? I'm not sure but I think the corresponding rise in Lamb sales is still worth less than what he spent going there.
Your problem is you are deeply into hating Westminster you believe anything "Senedd" has to be better. Wake up and smell the coffee. Westmisnter is trash too but going indy AND not being in the EU will do us even more harm than brexit and there would most probably be no long term gains.
Under the Senedd large parts of Wales are stagnating, having no real inward investment while Cardiff gets a lot. Its unfair, unbalanced. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:11 - Dec 21 with 883 views | onehunglow |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:19 - Dec 20 by builthjack |
Wales haven’t got good infrastructure no, but England is certainly no better. |
It couldn’t be .It’s England ,the enemy
Massive ignorance shown here | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 21:57 - Dec 21 with 858 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 20:06 - Dec 21 by Catullus |
Wales voted leave, if we had been independent we would have left too.
I think Labour will win the next GE and while he's been wishy washy, Starmer is making the right noises, things me and you can agree on like binningthe HoL.
The Senedd politicians are as greedy and self serving as any other Uk poitician. You have fallen for the lines they spin is all. Is stoppingthe 200 quid winter fuel payment helping the poorest Welsh people. Is changng the electoral system without our consent helping us? Is refusing to improve infrastrucure helping us? Did his trip to Qatar help us? I'm not sure but I think the corresponding rise in Lamb sales is still worth less than what he spent going there.
Your problem is you are deeply into hating Westminster you believe anything "Senedd" has to be better. Wake up and smell the coffee. Westmisnter is trash too but going indy AND not being in the EU will do us even more harm than brexit and there would most probably be no long term gains.
Under the Senedd large parts of Wales are stagnating, having no real inward investment while Cardiff gets a lot. Its unfair, unbalanced. |
I think thats pretty fair.
Its what i see tbh ….. | |
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| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 09:10 - Dec 22 with 806 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Yes, another Welsh Independence thread on 21:57 - Dec 21 by Kilkennyjack |
I think thats pretty fair.
Its what i see tbh ….. |
I think we as see how bad the Senedd is. The recent Senedd budget shows it
The three richest parts of Wales got the largest % council support increase and the two poorest parts got the lowest % council support.
They certainly do things differently in The Senedd. | |
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