| The 20MPH punishments 08:34 - Aug 3 with 97581 views | SullutaCreturned |
Well the punishment for breaking the limit,
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/police-confirm-how-punish-drivers-
Given how many idiots are on the roads, the delivery drivers under pressure and the actual difficutly in staying below 20 (it is difficult, I do it every week when I go to Cardiff and it's harder than you'd think, specially going downhill) there will be a lot of speeding going on.
The Senedd expect the fire brigade to become a road safety unit, how stupid is that? The fire brigade have their job and it's hard enough for them to do that the way the Senedd behaves.
Then there's the pollution problem, all those cars tootling around in second gear will fill the streets with pollution, it'll rise and rise and the few accidents stopped by this madness will be replaced tenfold and more in the years to come by serious health issues, those with asthma can look out, better buy your respirators now.
I wonder if cancers will also increase?
By the time we have all gone electric, assuming we all do, thousands of lives will be blighted by illness. |  | | |  |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:06 - Sep 27 with 1024 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:02 - Sep 27 by JACKMANANDBOY |
If that's the case, the 20mph thing is not about saving lives? |
It isn't and never has been. It's about forcing people out of their cars, or at least, making car journeys less attractive compared to public transport, bike or walking.
Of course, in the vast majority of cases car journeys will always be more attractive than public transport, bike or walking. None of the latter could ever hope to match the speed, convenience and comfort of the former, certainly not outside somewhere like London. Public transport in Wales is expensive, unreliable and full of the type of people who use public transport. Biking and walking are leisure activities. Even if Lidl is only 20 minutes walk away who the hell wants to walk home from Lidl with five bags of shopping?
I don't believe the Welsh Govt, despite all appearances to the contrary, are thick enough to not understand this (not all of them anyway), which basically means that they don't care and are just doing it for the hell of it. [Post edited 27 Sep 2023 8:09]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 08:16 - Sep 27 with 1003 views | felixstowe_jack |
Petitions
Against the disastrous 20 mph law 437,187
Early senedd election 14,103
Against Senedd Reform Bill 4,332
For the Excellent 20 mph law 3,444
All four of those petitions are now in the top ten of Senedd petitions and all are in the fastest growing list of Senedd petitions ever.
Democracy working in Wales. | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 09:51 - Sep 27 with 964 views | controversial_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:16 - Sep 27 by felixstowe_jack |
Petitions
Against the disastrous 20 mph law 437,187
Early senedd election 14,103
Against Senedd Reform Bill 4,332
For the Excellent 20 mph law 3,444
All four of those petitions are now in the top ten of Senedd petitions and all are in the fastest growing list of Senedd petitions ever.
Democracy working in Wales. |
What do you think petitions are supposed to do? | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:10 - Sep 27 with 961 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:06 - Sep 27 by Dr_Winston |
It isn't and never has been. It's about forcing people out of their cars, or at least, making car journeys less attractive compared to public transport, bike or walking.
Of course, in the vast majority of cases car journeys will always be more attractive than public transport, bike or walking. None of the latter could ever hope to match the speed, convenience and comfort of the former, certainly not outside somewhere like London. Public transport in Wales is expensive, unreliable and full of the type of people who use public transport. Biking and walking are leisure activities. Even if Lidl is only 20 minutes walk away who the hell wants to walk home from Lidl with five bags of shopping?
I don't believe the Welsh Govt, despite all appearances to the contrary, are thick enough to not understand this (not all of them anyway), which basically means that they don't care and are just doing it for the hell of it. [Post edited 27 Sep 2023 8:09]
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Doesn't sound like a vote winner to me. |  |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 11:08 - Sep 27 with 947 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 09:51 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
What do you think petitions are supposed to do? |
According to the Senedd's own site
1 Raise awareness of an issue
2 Bring about a change in Welsh Government policy
3 A different way of delivering services
4 Propose or influence new laws
5 Prompt rhe Senedd to hold a public enquiry
6 Lead to influence a debate in the Senedd
7 Prompt Senedd Committees or individual members of the Senedd to take action themselves.
All the above are useful in a functioning democracy, although in autocracies or dictatorships they will of course be ignored. | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 11:34 - Sep 27 with 923 views | controversial_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:08 - Sep 27 by felixstowe_jack |
According to the Senedd's own site
1 Raise awareness of an issue
2 Bring about a change in Welsh Government policy
3 A different way of delivering services
4 Propose or influence new laws
5 Prompt rhe Senedd to hold a public enquiry
6 Lead to influence a debate in the Senedd
7 Prompt Senedd Committees or individual members of the Senedd to take action themselves.
All the above are useful in a functioning democracy, although in autocracies or dictatorships they will of course be ignored. |
We don't have a direct democracy, we have a representative one. We elect these reps on our behalf, yet we have some who want to dismantle our democracy every time the Welsh Government makes a decision they disagree with?
A petition is fine and it does raise the issues, but that's as far as their usefulness goes | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:49 - Sep 27 with 917 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:10 - Sep 27 by JACKMANANDBOY |
Doesn't sound like a vote winner to me. |
It's not, which is why they tucked it away where few would notice (or care to look) in their manifesto and are now claiming that it's because of safety. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 12:27 - Sep 27 with 893 views | AnotherJohn |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:34 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
We don't have a direct democracy, we have a representative one. We elect these reps on our behalf, yet we have some who want to dismantle our democracy every time the Welsh Government makes a decision they disagree with?
A petition is fine and it does raise the issues, but that's as far as their usefulness goes |
This is the "trustee" concept of representative democracy coined by Edmund Burke in the 17th century. The idea of voting in good people who will make sensible decisions on your behalf looks awfully dated today. Most of us prefer the notion of representatives as delegates who reflect the views of their constituents. This article by Sengupta ("On the concept of representative democracy") explains the difference.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00164717
Interestingly, Burke lost his Bristol HoC seat at the next election after announcing his ideas about a "representative mandate"; it seems this wasn't too popular even then.
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| The 20MPH punishments on 12:33 - Sep 27 with 890 views | Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:34 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
We don't have a direct democracy, we have a representative one. We elect these reps on our behalf, yet we have some who want to dismantle our democracy every time the Welsh Government makes a decision they disagree with?
A petition is fine and it does raise the issues, but that's as far as their usefulness goes |
The job of a representative democracy is to broadly reflect, support and champion the communities the representatives are sent to represent. Just because we elect them it doesn’t mean they have carte blanche to do whatever they want. With this widespread backlash and criticism by the very least they should be looking at this issue again and where it can be amended or improved. but it seems they are just doubling down and saying they know best which will just infuriate people further. |  |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 13:35 - Sep 27 with 871 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:34 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
We don't have a direct democracy, we have a representative one. We elect these reps on our behalf, yet we have some who want to dismantle our democracy every time the Welsh Government makes a decision they disagree with?
A petition is fine and it does raise the issues, but that's as far as their usefulness goes |
Please read the Senedd's own petition Web site for it aims. | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 13:51 - Sep 27 with 859 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 12:33 - Sep 27 by Joesus_Of_Narbereth |
The job of a representative democracy is to broadly reflect, support and champion the communities the representatives are sent to represent. Just because we elect them it doesn’t mean they have carte blanche to do whatever they want. With this widespread backlash and criticism by the very least they should be looking at this issue again and where it can be amended or improved. but it seems they are just doubling down and saying they know best which will just infuriate people further. |
Exactly. They will just close ranks this afternoon and kick the can down the road by saying they will let it settle down and tweak it in the future if needed. This will not please Labour hierarchy in Westminster who do not want this dragging on towards a general election. Prepare for Drakeford to have his knuckles wrapped. |  | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 15:30 - Sep 27 with 815 views | Wingstandwood |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:49 - Sep 27 by Dr_Winston |
It's not, which is why they tucked it away where few would notice (or care to look) in their manifesto and are now claiming that it's because of safety. |
Your opinion previously that's forever stuck in my mind i.e. voting for devolution was "civic suicide".
And with that in mind i.e. those out there that catch a bus, or have an elderly relative who catches a bus must be mindful of changing timetables especially if it involves important appointments and times.
Keeping up to date with bus time tables may avoid missing a vital bus or appointment. Next up? Taxi fares and bus fare increases to compensate for increased wear and tear and low gear fuel consumption. Those Yokels in Cardiff Bay I keep mentioning, hey!
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/company-says-20mph-limit-making-27 |  |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 15:44 - Sep 27 with 810 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:34 - Sep 27 by controversial_jack |
We don't have a direct democracy, we have a representative one. We elect these reps on our behalf, yet we have some who want to dismantle our democracy every time the Welsh Government makes a decision they disagree with?
A petition is fine and it does raise the issues, but that's as far as their usefulness goes |
Read the post, read the 7 points and think again. The stated aims are there and this petition should be influencing them but they are railing against public opinion. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:02 - Sep 27 with 794 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 15:30 - Sep 27 by Wingstandwood |
Your opinion previously that's forever stuck in my mind i.e. voting for devolution was "civic suicide".
And with that in mind i.e. those out there that catch a bus, or have an elderly relative who catches a bus must be mindful of changing timetables especially if it involves important appointments and times.
Keeping up to date with bus time tables may avoid missing a vital bus or appointment. Next up? Taxi fares and bus fare increases to compensate for increased wear and tear and low gear fuel consumption. Those Yokels in Cardiff Bay I keep mentioning, hey!
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/company-says-20mph-limit-making-27 |
Another perfect example of how this policy has been ramrodded through in the name of political zealotry without even the simplest bit of forethought.
Lee Waters crowing about some TomTom data after just one week also illustrates that the idea that they're prepared to make changes depending on the data is another filthy lie.
The Welsh Tories don't have a leg to stand on here either mind. Too many of them backed it or did little to oppose it before implementation. [Post edited 27 Sep 2023 16:03]
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| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 16:39 - Sep 27 with 770 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:02 - Sep 27 by Dr_Winston |
Another perfect example of how this policy has been ramrodded through in the name of political zealotry without even the simplest bit of forethought.
Lee Waters crowing about some TomTom data after just one week also illustrates that the idea that they're prepared to make changes depending on the data is another filthy lie.
The Welsh Tories don't have a leg to stand on here either mind. Too many of them backed it or did little to oppose it before implementation. [Post edited 27 Sep 2023 16:03]
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The senedd vote for 20 mph was
For 38
Against 15
Given that PC and labour have 43 seats and Conservatives 16 it is pretty obvious which parties supported it although 7 seemed to have abstained. | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 16:41 - Sep 27 with 768 views | Wingstandwood |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:02 - Sep 27 by Dr_Winston |
Another perfect example of how this policy has been ramrodded through in the name of political zealotry without even the simplest bit of forethought.
Lee Waters crowing about some TomTom data after just one week also illustrates that the idea that they're prepared to make changes depending on the data is another filthy lie.
The Welsh Tories don't have a leg to stand on here either mind. Too many of them backed it or did little to oppose it before implementation. [Post edited 27 Sep 2023 16:03]
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Yes indeed the Tories backed it, done a U-turn and have hypocritically gone on the attack, fully aware that this issue has become an absolute humdinger of a 'gift' to be exploited to the hilt. I bet they cannot believe their luck?
It is without any doubt (both Westminster and Cardiff) a most magnificent 'own-goal' to be exploited for 'political gain', because of its widespread unpopularity. You know the stuff? They will say that England, Scotland and Northern Ireland will be next if Labour wins the next election.
20mph? Welsh Labours equivalent of the poll tax? I bet many in Westminster Labour and grassroots activist level are absolutely fuming?
Many (Labour aside) belonging to (Cardiff Bay) opposition politcal parties were equally detached and cloud-cuckoo-landed until the sh1t hit the fan, because they had absolutely no foresight or common sense regarding the future unpopularity and repercussions of.
Meanwhile a struggling O.A.P, eye clinic patient or cancer survivor who for example has to rely on a taxi service (no bus services in some area's) for regular appointments for chemotherapy, therapeutic blood removal phlebotomy, macular degeneration Lucentis injections and check up's etc will be hit in the pocket. Sick ain't it! [Post edited 27 Sep 2023 16:43]
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| The 20MPH punishments on 18:22 - Sep 27 with 713 views | SullutaCreturned |
I hardly use the car really so I don't know how much extra this will cost us but people who use cars for work and get mileage will be arguing fora raise in it, surely?
When the bus companies and hauliers come out with their extra costs the pressure must surely rise.
This is a policy that effects everybody in Wales who uses cars, tai's or buses and as costs rise ( as they surely must) and people start noticing the senedd has made so many people worse off, something has to give.
It will be interesting to see that stats in 12 months and see how many lives have been saved. For my money the idiots that drive either under the influence of alcohol or drugs will still do it. Those that break speed limits will still do it. The mindless idiots will not change. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:26 - Sep 27 with 709 views | johnlangy |
After reading a very interesting article about how the law came into place I thought i'd post a few thoughts.
Firstly this is the full text of the 20MPH petition.
'The new 20mph law is coming into force on the 17th September and it will mark the end of having socialism in power in Wales.
Welsh Government claim to have supporting evidence stating that reducing to 20mph EVERWHERE saves lives! Yet we get flyers merely claiming that it will, and opinions from doctors that see RTCs coming into A&E. This is NOT evidence. The only true evidence is from Belfast and it states it makes NO DIFFERENCE to RTCs!
More details
At least one of the trial villages in Monmouthshire actually reverted their trial because it was causing absolute carnage on the roads! Mark Drakeford has come out claiming it is a success in St Brides Major but every time I go though there NO ONE is driving at 20mph.
The Welsh Government has FAILED to produce ANY convincing evidence to support these claims of safety. This law is being spearheaded by the WG Climate Change department and NOT Health & Safety!!
YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO US.
The Welsh Government was put there BY THE PEOPLE OF WALES, We are your boss! We demand that this foolish idea be stopped.'
Second para - The only true evidence is from Belfast and it states it makes NO DIFFERENCE to RTCs!'.
A section from the article - 'the 20mph scheme in Belfast only applied to 76 streets in the city centre, 27 of which were fully or partly pedestrianised at the time of the study, and the average vehicle speed was less than 20mph anyway.'
Another section from the article - 'A better comparison would be with Spain, which in May 2021 reduced the urban default speed limit to 30 kilometres per hour (18.641mph). Deaths on urban roads declined by 10% in the first eight months of application, according to government data.'
I've read people on this thread, and elsewhere, refer to Mark Drakeford and Lee Waters as being dictatorial in bringing in this legislation in against the wishes of the people of Wales. Here is part of the chronology of how the legislation came into being.
The first Senedd motion in favour of a standard 20mph speed limit in residential areas was tabled by a Welsh Conservative MS, David Melding, in September 2018. It received cross-party support. Note that - not a Labour MS.
A task force group was subsequently established to look further at the proposal and its final report, recommending the 20mph limit, was voted on in July 2020. Seven of the 11 Tory MSs voted for the motion, with only one voting against. Andrew RT Davies, who had stepped down as group leader, did not vote.
Following the Senedd election in 2021, by which time Mr Davies had taken over as leader again, the group was more right wing and decided to change its stance and oppose the 20mph default limit. So within 12 months of being almost totally for the legislation the Tory group led by Andrew RT did a complete about turn.
But the Tories were outvoted by Labour and Plaid Cymru MSs – all of whom had been elected on manifesto commitments that backed 20mph – and 20mph was passed, with the provision that local authorities could make whatever exemptions they wanted. That’s the system which was introduced on September 17.
So Labpur and Plaid have done what they said they'd do in their manifestos. Yet the petition says 'YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO US. The Welsh Government was put there BY THE PEOPLE OF WALES, We are your boss! We demand that this foolish idea be stopped.'
It says 'you have not listened to us' even though this was a manifesto pledge by both partys and between them they won 43 out of 60 seats in the election.
I would suggest that anyone who voted Tory at the Senedd elections be thoroughly embarrassed that Andrew RT is their party leader. He has continually referred to the 20 limit as a 'blanket' rule even though the fact that every authority has the right to decide for themselves on exceptions is built in to the law.
Personally i'm willing to see how it pans out. What if it does turn out that deaths on urban roads decline by 10% as happened in Spain ? What will the people who signed the petition think then ? | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 19:02 - Sep 27 with 691 views | union_jack |
I have to say I’m confused as to why, or maybe more importantly how this law has been implemented.
Governments will introduce legislation basically on two premises.
1. Will it gain votes
2. Will it increase revenue
Now we can all sit back and call politicians thick or not living in the real world but even if that is the case with an individual p, there are others in the party and backed up by advisers who will steer them in the right direction.
So why have they passed this piece of legislation? It can’t be becaudpse it will gain votes, that’s obvious by the polling via the petitions we’ve seen this last week or so.
Therefore, it has to be a means of gaining revenue. They must have weighed up the cost of fines from speeding after the bedding in period and ascertained that the initial cost will have a very quick payback.
Now maybe they genuinely did think that by saying it’s going to save a handful of lives that Wales would be all clapping in support of it. But then they’ve ignored all the other problems associated with slow moving ICE vehicles.
Also, maybe those MS in Cardiff who may have voted against it were emotionally tricked into it so as not to appear heartless.
Something really does not add up here. Why was the margin for:against so high but public opinion opposing it so large?
I’ve not seen a lot of difference here in the Mumbles area. In fact some roads, Chapel St. for example remains at 30 when you can’t do that most of the time. There are other examples.
So I’m confused but what I do believe is that they made a big mistake changing the default limit to 20 mph which has people thinking all 30mph roads are now 20 especially those looking in from outside. They should have left it as a joint exercise with LAs to downgrade 30s to 20s where deemed necessary but left the default at 30. The way it’s been handled has damage Wales. |  |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 19:08 - Sep 27 with 680 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:26 - Sep 27 by johnlangy |
After reading a very interesting article about how the law came into place I thought i'd post a few thoughts.
Firstly this is the full text of the 20MPH petition.
'The new 20mph law is coming into force on the 17th September and it will mark the end of having socialism in power in Wales.
Welsh Government claim to have supporting evidence stating that reducing to 20mph EVERWHERE saves lives! Yet we get flyers merely claiming that it will, and opinions from doctors that see RTCs coming into A&E. This is NOT evidence. The only true evidence is from Belfast and it states it makes NO DIFFERENCE to RTCs!
More details
At least one of the trial villages in Monmouthshire actually reverted their trial because it was causing absolute carnage on the roads! Mark Drakeford has come out claiming it is a success in St Brides Major but every time I go though there NO ONE is driving at 20mph.
The Welsh Government has FAILED to produce ANY convincing evidence to support these claims of safety. This law is being spearheaded by the WG Climate Change department and NOT Health & Safety!!
YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO US.
The Welsh Government was put there BY THE PEOPLE OF WALES, We are your boss! We demand that this foolish idea be stopped.'
Second para - The only true evidence is from Belfast and it states it makes NO DIFFERENCE to RTCs!'.
A section from the article - 'the 20mph scheme in Belfast only applied to 76 streets in the city centre, 27 of which were fully or partly pedestrianised at the time of the study, and the average vehicle speed was less than 20mph anyway.'
Another section from the article - 'A better comparison would be with Spain, which in May 2021 reduced the urban default speed limit to 30 kilometres per hour (18.641mph). Deaths on urban roads declined by 10% in the first eight months of application, according to government data.'
I've read people on this thread, and elsewhere, refer to Mark Drakeford and Lee Waters as being dictatorial in bringing in this legislation in against the wishes of the people of Wales. Here is part of the chronology of how the legislation came into being.
The first Senedd motion in favour of a standard 20mph speed limit in residential areas was tabled by a Welsh Conservative MS, David Melding, in September 2018. It received cross-party support. Note that - not a Labour MS.
A task force group was subsequently established to look further at the proposal and its final report, recommending the 20mph limit, was voted on in July 2020. Seven of the 11 Tory MSs voted for the motion, with only one voting against. Andrew RT Davies, who had stepped down as group leader, did not vote.
Following the Senedd election in 2021, by which time Mr Davies had taken over as leader again, the group was more right wing and decided to change its stance and oppose the 20mph default limit. So within 12 months of being almost totally for the legislation the Tory group led by Andrew RT did a complete about turn.
But the Tories were outvoted by Labour and Plaid Cymru MSs – all of whom had been elected on manifesto commitments that backed 20mph – and 20mph was passed, with the provision that local authorities could make whatever exemptions they wanted. That’s the system which was introduced on September 17.
So Labpur and Plaid have done what they said they'd do in their manifestos. Yet the petition says 'YOU HAVE NOT LISTENED TO US. The Welsh Government was put there BY THE PEOPLE OF WALES, We are your boss! We demand that this foolish idea be stopped.'
It says 'you have not listened to us' even though this was a manifesto pledge by both partys and between them they won 43 out of 60 seats in the election.
I would suggest that anyone who voted Tory at the Senedd elections be thoroughly embarrassed that Andrew RT is their party leader. He has continually referred to the 20 limit as a 'blanket' rule even though the fact that every authority has the right to decide for themselves on exceptions is built in to the law.
Personally i'm willing to see how it pans out. What if it does turn out that deaths on urban roads decline by 10% as happened in Spain ? What will the people who signed the petition think then ? |
They may think the £32M would have been better spent on cancer care as it would have saved more lives? | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 19:09 - Sep 27 with 674 views | union_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 19:08 - Sep 27 by JACKMANANDBOY |
They may think the £32M would have been better spent on cancer care as it would have saved more lives? |
I meant to mention that in my post above. There are more and better vote winners than the 39moh legislation. Which begs the question, WHY? | |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 19:53 - Sep 27 with 645 views | Boundy |
| The 20MPH punishments on 19:08 - Sep 27 by JACKMANANDBOY |
They may think the £32M would have been better spent on cancer care as it would have saved more lives? |
Also the how many billions of £s lost which could have been spent | |
| "In a free society, the State is the servant of the people—not the master." |
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| The 20MPH punishments on 20:44 - Sep 27 with 623 views | builthjack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 19:08 - Sep 27 by JACKMANANDBOY |
They may think the £32M would have been better spent on cancer care as it would have saved more lives? |
Just think how far £30 billion would have gone. That’s what Liz Truss spunked.
1000 ( ONE THOUSAND) times 32 million. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
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| The 20MPH punishments on 20:55 - Sep 27 with 603 views | union_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 20:44 - Sep 27 by builthjack |
Just think how far £30 billion would have gone. That’s what Liz Truss spunked.
1000 ( ONE THOUSAND) times 32 million. |
Straw man arguments all the time! | |
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