| The 20MPH punishments 08:34 - Aug 3 with 97686 views | SullutaCreturned |
Well the punishment for breaking the limit,
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/police-confirm-how-punish-drivers-
Given how many idiots are on the roads, the delivery drivers under pressure and the actual difficutly in staying below 20 (it is difficult, I do it every week when I go to Cardiff and it's harder than you'd think, specially going downhill) there will be a lot of speeding going on.
The Senedd expect the fire brigade to become a road safety unit, how stupid is that? The fire brigade have their job and it's hard enough for them to do that the way the Senedd behaves.
Then there's the pollution problem, all those cars tootling around in second gear will fill the streets with pollution, it'll rise and rise and the few accidents stopped by this madness will be replaced tenfold and more in the years to come by serious health issues, those with asthma can look out, better buy your respirators now.
I wonder if cancers will also increase?
By the time we have all gone electric, assuming we all do, thousands of lives will be blighted by illness. |  | | |  |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:08 - Oct 7 with 1456 views | SullutaCreturned |
| The 20MPH punishments on 23:55 - Oct 6 by AnotherJohn |
One could take this argument a step further by mentioning the concepts of the quality-adjusted life year (QALY), the incremental cost-effectiveness ratio (the ICER), and the NICE cost effectiveness threshold. I know that I've already lost about half the readership, but Google "NICE cost- effectiveness threshold". In almost all areas of healthcare we could save more lives if we invested more money. Sadly we don't have enough money to spend more in all these areas, and so the Government (in the form of NICE) fixes a notional amount that we will pay to add a year of good quality life, and then allocates a value to competing treatments to see how many QALYs a given treatment and spend adds or saves. On a cost per life year basis, the 34M spent on the 20mph speed limit to save 10 lives (and the average number of life years remaining for the 10 cases) vastly exceeds the NICE threshold amount per life year (£20K to £30K ) above which we stop buying a drug or procedure. So yes, JMAB is on to something. |
There is nothing nice about "NICE" and every month they refuse treatment to people because it's too expensive. Funny though, because on here the supporters of the 20 limit say we can't put a price on peoples lives yet they don't say much about the Senedd spending Welsh NHS money elsewhere or NICE putting that value on a persons life.
So come on Lifelong, tell me, do you agree with NICE placing a value on a persons life? We are talking here not of a random chance on a street but a person being directly refused treatment that has a price "NICE" are not preared to pay. A guaranteed outcome because of a financially led medical decision. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:53 - Oct 7 with 1418 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 03:57 - Oct 7 by felixstowe_jack |
Can you actually provide statistics on road deaths in 30 mph zones even the Welsh government can't
Apparently of the annual 100 Road deaths in Wales 40% are in 30mph zones.
There does not seem to be any breakdown of those figures into pedestrians, cyclist, drivers or passenger let alone a further breakdown of deaths caused bt exceeding the 30mph or drinks and drugs .
If they Welsh government cannot provide this breakdown how can Drakeford measure if his changes are a success let alone claim it will save upto 10 deaths a year.
As an inquest found recently two deaths in an accident in a 30 mph zone were as a result of the driver exceeding 30 mph being high on drugs and alcohol and the passenger not wearing a seat belt none of which would have been prevent by the new 20mph law |
The up to 10 quote has been taken out of context by his supporters. Up to 10 in reality means any number up to a maximum of 10. This could even mean 0 or a minus as in Bath where fatalities actually rose after 20mph limits were implemented in the city. |  | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 09:50 - Oct 7 with 1371 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:08 - Oct 7 by SullutaCreturned |
There is nothing nice about "NICE" and every month they refuse treatment to people because it's too expensive. Funny though, because on here the supporters of the 20 limit say we can't put a price on peoples lives yet they don't say much about the Senedd spending Welsh NHS money elsewhere or NICE putting that value on a persons life.
So come on Lifelong, tell me, do you agree with NICE placing a value on a persons life? We are talking here not of a random chance on a street but a person being directly refused treatment that has a price "NICE" are not preared to pay. A guaranteed outcome because of a financially led medical decision. |
 |  | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:04 - Oct 7 with 1356 views | onehunglow |
It is not just speed that causes deaths or roads.
Lack of concentration and anticipation and failure to recognise hazards and deal with them probably kills more . | |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:06 - Oct 7 with 1346 views | builthjack |
This petition. Signatures have come from 67 countries now. How odd. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
|
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:13 - Oct 7 with 1349 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:02 - Oct 7 by SullutaCreturned |
Just how many is many? Do you have a number? Are those children killed because of speeding, bad driving or some stupid action by them or their parents? |
It's pretty obvious that he doesn't have a number or anything like it. He's flailing badly because his argument is fundamentally flawed and deep down he probably knows it. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:37 - Oct 7 with 1337 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:13 - Oct 7 by Dr_Winston |
It's pretty obvious that he doesn't have a number or anything like it. He's flailing badly because his argument is fundamentally flawed and deep down he probably knows it. |
Not flailing at all, 17 pedestrian young children were killed in the UK in 2021 with over a 1,200 seriously injured. Unable to find children stats for Wales, but 86 people were killed on our roads that year with over 1200 seriously injured.
I realise that you will find these figures insignificant but I think that the figures are much too high.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web& | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:13 - Oct 7 with 1324 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:37 - Oct 7 by lifelong |
Not flailing at all, 17 pedestrian young children were killed in the UK in 2021 with over a 1,200 seriously injured. Unable to find children stats for Wales, but 86 people were killed on our roads that year with over 1200 seriously injured.
I realise that you will find these figures insignificant but I think that the figures are much too high.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web& |
Provide statistics for Wales because this is what matters regarding this thread.
We have already provided statistics for areas in England where the numbers have gone up after the 20mph has been introduced in cities. This is because statistics were available before and after. If we don't have Welsh statistics of pre the 20mph it is impossible to compare. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:40 - Oct 7 with 1317 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:13 - Oct 7 by Whiterockin |
Provide statistics for Wales because this is what matters regarding this thread.
We have already provided statistics for areas in England where the numbers have gone up after the 20mph has been introduced in cities. This is because statistics were available before and after. If we don't have Welsh statistics of pre the 20mph it is impossible to compare. |
Ok I have done your job for you and this is up to date 2023.
https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/statistics-and-research/2023-06/report
It is very interesting that there is a massive downward trend regarding accidents over the last 20 years. Albeit there was a slight rise in 2021 after the covid drop the previous year. So was the introduction of the 20mph really needed with the number of accidents declining anyway. We would need a steep drop in the graph for 2024 for there to be any justification, a minor drop would just show the current trend continuing. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 13:03 - Oct 7 with 1292 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:40 - Oct 7 by Whiterockin |
Ok I have done your job for you and this is up to date 2023.
https://www.gov.wales/sites/default/files/statistics-and-research/2023-06/report
It is very interesting that there is a massive downward trend regarding accidents over the last 20 years. Albeit there was a slight rise in 2021 after the covid drop the previous year. So was the introduction of the 20mph really needed with the number of accidents declining anyway. We would need a steep drop in the graph for 2024 for there to be any justification, a minor drop would just show the current trend continuing. |
So:
In 2022 in 20mph limits there were 239 casualties 42 of which were Killed or seriously injured.
In 30 mph limits there were 2,100 casualties with 421 killed or seriously injured.
It will be interesting to see the future stats with the increase in 20 mph limits. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:00 - Oct 7 with 1230 views | onehunglow |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:13 - Oct 7 by Dr_Winston |
It's pretty obvious that he doesn't have a number or anything like it. He's flailing badly because his argument is fundamentally flawed and deep down he probably knows it. |
Children are mainly killed by bad driving outlines by me previously .
Speed is contributory but no way the sole re@son.
Pass a basic rudimentary test the you can pop off,if you’re a footballer ,and get a 400 hp car.
Most drivers never read the Highway Code nor take advanced driving course as they think they’ve learned it all. | |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 13:17 - Oct 8 with 1164 views | controversial_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:00 - Oct 7 by onehunglow |
Children are mainly killed by bad driving outlines by me previously .
Speed is contributory but no way the sole re@son.
Pass a basic rudimentary test the you can pop off,if you’re a footballer ,and get a 400 hp car.
Most drivers never read the Highway Code nor take advanced driving course as they think they’ve learned it all. |
Let's wait and see the result of this before we jump to conclusions | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 06:42 - Oct 10 with 994 views | felixstowe_jack |
| The 20MPH punishments on 13:17 - Oct 8 by controversial_jack |
Let's wait and see the result of this before we jump to conclusions |
Seems like Drakeford and the Senedd jumped to the wrong conclusion in the first place with their 20mph law.
Over 460,000 people have signed the Senedd petition. | |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 07:36 - Oct 10 with 970 views | Dr_Winston |
| The 20MPH punishments on 18:00 - Oct 7 by onehunglow |
Children are mainly killed by bad driving outlines by me previously .
Speed is contributory but no way the sole re@son.
Pass a basic rudimentary test the you can pop off,if you’re a footballer ,and get a 400 hp car.
Most drivers never read the Highway Code nor take advanced driving course as they think they’ve learned it all. |
Children are mainly killed because they have no road sense. I once almost hit a child in a 30 zone because the stupid little sod ran right out in front of me without looking.
There are bad drivers out there. Of course there are. The simple fact remains however, backed up by reams of stats, that the overwhelming majority, thousands more accidents involving pedestrians and cars are caused by pedestrians doing something stupid. Cyclists too.
The roads are for motorised vehicles. I learned that when I was a child. Or they were until the recent idiotic adjustments to the Highway Code. Pavements and cycle paths exist for everything else and they should be made to use them whenever available. | |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:16 - Oct 10 with 947 views | BryanSwan |
To be fair I dont think the new limits have really had much impact, I maybe get to work a minute later at the most. Seems like many are being a bit dramatic.
The worst bit about it has been the people who apparently cannot read road signs and think every road that isn't a motorway is now a 20. | |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:24 - Oct 10 with 944 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 07:36 - Oct 10 by Dr_Winston |
Children are mainly killed because they have no road sense. I once almost hit a child in a 30 zone because the stupid little sod ran right out in front of me without looking.
There are bad drivers out there. Of course there are. The simple fact remains however, backed up by reams of stats, that the overwhelming majority, thousands more accidents involving pedestrians and cars are caused by pedestrians doing something stupid. Cyclists too.
The roads are for motorised vehicles. I learned that when I was a child. Or they were until the recent idiotic adjustments to the Highway Code. Pavements and cycle paths exist for everything else and they should be made to use them whenever available. |
Here are a couple of key facts regarding casualties on Welsh roads, as taken from the 2023 Police report up to and including the 2022 figures.
All categories of road user have seen an overall decrease in road casualties over time. Compared to 1979, total casualty numbers were 72% lower in 2022. There has been a decrease of 26% between 2019 (pre pandemic) and 2022 roads back to normal.
In 2022, police forces in Wales recorded a total of 3,312 road collisions involving personal
injury, which resulted in 4,442 casualties. Of the reported road collisions, 31% resulted in at least one KSI (Killed or seriously injured) casualty.
Of these 4,442 casualties, 93 people were killed (2%), 921 were seriously injured (21%)
and 3,428 were slightly injured (77%)
45% were using a Car, taxis and minibus.
24% of the killed or seriously injured were motorcyclists.
18% pedestrian.
8% cyclists.
5% other. [Post edited 10 Oct 2023 8:25]
| | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 09:40 - Oct 10 with 912 views | lifelong |
| The 20MPH punishments on 08:24 - Oct 10 by Whiterockin |
Here are a couple of key facts regarding casualties on Welsh roads, as taken from the 2023 Police report up to and including the 2022 figures.
All categories of road user have seen an overall decrease in road casualties over time. Compared to 1979, total casualty numbers were 72% lower in 2022. There has been a decrease of 26% between 2019 (pre pandemic) and 2022 roads back to normal.
In 2022, police forces in Wales recorded a total of 3,312 road collisions involving personal
injury, which resulted in 4,442 casualties. Of the reported road collisions, 31% resulted in at least one KSI (Killed or seriously injured) casualty.
Of these 4,442 casualties, 93 people were killed (2%), 921 were seriously injured (21%)
and 3,428 were slightly injured (77%)
45% were using a Car, taxis and minibus.
24% of the killed or seriously injured were motorcyclists.
18% pedestrian.
8% cyclists.
5% other. [Post edited 10 Oct 2023 8:25]
|
Those figures relate to 3 people a day being killed or seriously injured on the roads in a small country like Wales. With the majority being in 30mph limits do you not think that something needs to be done to attempt to address it? | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:02 - Oct 10 with 884 views | onehunglow |
| The 20MPH punishments on 07:36 - Oct 10 by Dr_Winston |
Children are mainly killed because they have no road sense. I once almost hit a child in a 30 zone because the stupid little sod ran right out in front of me without looking.
There are bad drivers out there. Of course there are. The simple fact remains however, backed up by reams of stats, that the overwhelming majority, thousands more accidents involving pedestrians and cars are caused by pedestrians doing something stupid. Cyclists too.
The roads are for motorised vehicles. I learned that when I was a child. Or they were until the recent idiotic adjustments to the Highway Code. Pavements and cycle paths exist for everything else and they should be made to use them whenever available. |
Fair response but perception of hazards is key and most drivers don’t have full appreciation because they have not received ongoing training and moreover dump the Highway Code on a book shelf to collect dust .
Most cyclists are fine,most drivers are not when it comes to dealing with two wheels or pedestrians come to that .
Biggest danger now is the cretins on bikes with no lights,hands down their tracking or on the phone ,dressed in black.
When most drivers get into their car ,they view it as a homogenous or sealed personal space in which there are sealed from the outside world .
It’s why you see road rage [Post edited 10 Oct 2023 10:06]
| |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:40 - Oct 10 with 860 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 09:40 - Oct 10 by lifelong |
Those figures relate to 3 people a day being killed or seriously injured on the roads in a small country like Wales. With the majority being in 30mph limits do you not think that something needs to be done to attempt to address it? |
Yes I do, but as I have said before the way it has been done is ridiculous and should have been targeted to specific risk areas. Pre the change 37% of Welsh roads were 30 mph it is now about 3%. That is a 34% drop and many roads have had no accidents, were very low risk and the changes were not needed. The Senedd have now informed councils of how they will overrule any changes by the councils if they revert back to 30mph.
The Senedd have clarified that they will only overrule if there is a "glaringly obvious breach" and have issued guidelines for councils to follow. The following criteria have been developed to guide highway authorities to determine, in a consistent way across Wales, which sections of roads may have significant demands for people walking and cycling:
Within a 100m walk of any educational setting (e.g. primary, secondary, further education and higher education)
Within 100m walk of any community centre
Within 100m walk of any hospital
Where the number of residential and/or retail premises fronting a road exceeds 20 properties per km.
The Senedd has confirmed that the Welsh government does control the limits on trunk roads, highways like the A55 and A470.
"Highway authorities can apply relevant local factors when interpreting the Place Criteria to determine the need for exceptions, and continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations."
But highway authorities continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations.
For example residential and retail premises may be one side of the road, but if there is open land on the other side of the road, it could mean there is little need for pedestrians and cyclists to cross the road. Exceptions may be appropriate where there is significant demand (or potential demand) for walking and cycling but people on foot and cycle are not required to mix with motor traffic, due to footways or cycle paths.
Why was this not in place before the rule was brought in. Do the councils need to pay to change back or is the Senedd going to pay.
Some said that the petition would have no effect, but it clearly has through the back door. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:51 - Oct 10 with 841 views | onehunglow |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:40 - Oct 10 by Whiterockin |
Yes I do, but as I have said before the way it has been done is ridiculous and should have been targeted to specific risk areas. Pre the change 37% of Welsh roads were 30 mph it is now about 3%. That is a 34% drop and many roads have had no accidents, were very low risk and the changes were not needed. The Senedd have now informed councils of how they will overrule any changes by the councils if they revert back to 30mph.
The Senedd have clarified that they will only overrule if there is a "glaringly obvious breach" and have issued guidelines for councils to follow. The following criteria have been developed to guide highway authorities to determine, in a consistent way across Wales, which sections of roads may have significant demands for people walking and cycling:
Within a 100m walk of any educational setting (e.g. primary, secondary, further education and higher education)
Within 100m walk of any community centre
Within 100m walk of any hospital
Where the number of residential and/or retail premises fronting a road exceeds 20 properties per km.
The Senedd has confirmed that the Welsh government does control the limits on trunk roads, highways like the A55 and A470.
"Highway authorities can apply relevant local factors when interpreting the Place Criteria to determine the need for exceptions, and continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations."
But highway authorities continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations.
For example residential and retail premises may be one side of the road, but if there is open land on the other side of the road, it could mean there is little need for pedestrians and cyclists to cross the road. Exceptions may be appropriate where there is significant demand (or potential demand) for walking and cycling but people on foot and cycle are not required to mix with motor traffic, due to footways or cycle paths.
Why was this not in place before the rule was brought in. Do the councils need to pay to change back or is the Senedd going to pay.
Some said that the petition would have no effect, but it clearly has through the back door. |
I go back to my point about mediocre driving standards and attitude . This is what kills.
People get into a car to go from A to B .Their focus is B but often their minds are stuck in A .
A car is a man’s phalkic symbol.
You can criticise a man’s bedroom performance but not his driving.
I’ve been on courses and seen grown men go purple with rage when their perceived great driving standard wasn’t .
By the way, cyclists rarely kill. | |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:03 - Oct 10 with 824 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:51 - Oct 10 by onehunglow |
I go back to my point about mediocre driving standards and attitude . This is what kills.
People get into a car to go from A to B .Their focus is B but often their minds are stuck in A .
A car is a man’s phalkic symbol.
You can criticise a man’s bedroom performance but not his driving.
I’ve been on courses and seen grown men go purple with rage when their perceived great driving standard wasn’t .
By the way, cyclists rarely kill. |
Not only cars mate, 24% of the killed or seriously injured ar motorcyclists. I'm not saying all are to blame, but it's something that should be seriously looked at. | | | |
| The 20MPH punishments on 12:14 - Oct 10 with 792 views | onehunglow |
| The 20MPH punishments on 11:03 - Oct 10 by Whiterockin |
Not only cars mate, 24% of the killed or seriously injured ar motorcyclists. I'm not saying all are to blame, but it's something that should be seriously looked at. |
I rode motor bikes off and on ( literally ) from age of 16 to 65
I'm Clas 1 advanced police trained
I've seen enough carnage to last me three lifetimes
Normally , motor cyclists are victims of knobs who " didn't seen you" syndrome
Any traffic officer , if any left now, will tell you that
I lost a good chum and my son his best mate as they hit a tree in Bala April 29 th 1999
Hard to forget as his fault
Hit head on by female driver who lost concentration because of kids in the car
As I keep repeating myself and trying to educate others, it is all about concentration , perception and self analysis | |
| |
| The 20MPH punishments on 16:42 - Oct 10 with 731 views | Whiterockin |
| The 20MPH punishments on 10:40 - Oct 10 by Whiterockin |
Yes I do, but as I have said before the way it has been done is ridiculous and should have been targeted to specific risk areas. Pre the change 37% of Welsh roads were 30 mph it is now about 3%. That is a 34% drop and many roads have had no accidents, were very low risk and the changes were not needed. The Senedd have now informed councils of how they will overrule any changes by the councils if they revert back to 30mph.
The Senedd have clarified that they will only overrule if there is a "glaringly obvious breach" and have issued guidelines for councils to follow. The following criteria have been developed to guide highway authorities to determine, in a consistent way across Wales, which sections of roads may have significant demands for people walking and cycling:
Within a 100m walk of any educational setting (e.g. primary, secondary, further education and higher education)
Within 100m walk of any community centre
Within 100m walk of any hospital
Where the number of residential and/or retail premises fronting a road exceeds 20 properties per km.
The Senedd has confirmed that the Welsh government does control the limits on trunk roads, highways like the A55 and A470.
"Highway authorities can apply relevant local factors when interpreting the Place Criteria to determine the need for exceptions, and continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations."
But highway authorities continue to have the flexibility to set local speed limits that are right for individual roads, reflecting local needs and considerations.
For example residential and retail premises may be one side of the road, but if there is open land on the other side of the road, it could mean there is little need for pedestrians and cyclists to cross the road. Exceptions may be appropriate where there is significant demand (or potential demand) for walking and cycling but people on foot and cycle are not required to mix with motor traffic, due to footways or cycle paths.
Why was this not in place before the rule was brought in. Do the councils need to pay to change back or is the Senedd going to pay.
Some said that the petition would have no effect, but it clearly has through the back door. |
This letter seems to sum it up.
https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/23839113.letter-welsh-government-needs-dissol | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
