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Doctors strike. 19:04 - Dec 21 with 3662 viewsGwyn737

Can’t imagine why they’re feeling undervalued…



The Health Secretary 🙄
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Doctors strike. on 01:24 - Dec 22 with 2440 viewsDJack

Pretty on-brand for the current regime.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Doctors strike. on 07:28 - Dec 22 with 2407 viewsfelixstowe_jack

Most people would love the 8.8% pay rises they had in April plus the 3% they have been offered as well. Nearly 12% in a year. Most people would be glad with that generous offer.

Pure greed they long ago gave up caring about the suffering of their patients.

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Doctors strike. on 08:07 - Dec 22 with 2401 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 07:28 - Dec 22 by felixstowe_jack

Most people would love the 8.8% pay rises they had in April plus the 3% they have been offered as well. Nearly 12% in a year. Most people would be glad with that generous offer.

Pure greed they long ago gave up caring about the suffering of their patients.


We’re short of doctors though, aren’t we? You have to pay people their worth or they’ll do something else.

I know you think public service is a vocation and people should do it for altruistic reasons, but when people don’t what happens then?

I’m sure that deliberately insulting doctors - which is exactly what the minister did - isn’t going to help recruitment either.

Edit: I just looked up first year doctor pay after the increase - £32,300. After all that training and the associated debt. Doesn’t seem commensurate to me.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 8:13]
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Doctors strike. on 09:56 - Dec 22 with 2360 viewsonehunglow

Doctors strike. on 08:07 - Dec 22 by Gwyn737

We’re short of doctors though, aren’t we? You have to pay people their worth or they’ll do something else.

I know you think public service is a vocation and people should do it for altruistic reasons, but when people don’t what happens then?

I’m sure that deliberately insulting doctors - which is exactly what the minister did - isn’t going to help recruitment either.

Edit: I just looked up first year doctor pay after the increase - £32,300. After all that training and the associated debt. Doesn’t seem commensurate to me.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 8:13]


It’s also the case higher escelons are very well paid as they should be.
It used to be a vacation,like the police serve ,who ,amazingly,don’t strike . They can’t .Legally

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Doctors strike. on 11:17 - Dec 22 with 2337 viewswaynekerr55

Doctors strike. on 07:28 - Dec 22 by felixstowe_jack

Most people would love the 8.8% pay rises they had in April plus the 3% they have been offered as well. Nearly 12% in a year. Most people would be glad with that generous offer.

Pure greed they long ago gave up caring about the suffering of their patients.


You're either an excellent wind up merchant or you're terminally stupid. Which one is it? Which part about junior doctors get paid less now than they did in 2008 is that hard to comprehend?

It's got nothing to do with greed because if it was you'd be opining on those parasites who robbed the public purse during covid.

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Doctors strike. on 12:25 - Dec 22 with 2292 viewsAnotherJohn

I have mixed feelings about this. I feel that a modest increase on the latest 3% add-on is appropriate, but the 35% demand is way over what is possible. Two considerations that come to mind are (a) a good proportion of junior doctors will progress to very well paid consultant posts, or failing that pretty-well rewarded work in general practice, and (b) the hours these days are nothing like they were 20 years ago, when extremely long hours were common. I am becoming less sympathetic because of the timing of the latest English strike, which I think will cost lives and a great deal of suffering, especially for older patients. I think previous generations of doctors would have hesitated to strike in this way (I know there was a shorter strike re private practice in Barbara Castle's day), and this may be an indication of cultural change.
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Doctors strike. on 12:53 - Dec 22 with 2258 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 12:25 - Dec 22 by AnotherJohn

I have mixed feelings about this. I feel that a modest increase on the latest 3% add-on is appropriate, but the 35% demand is way over what is possible. Two considerations that come to mind are (a) a good proportion of junior doctors will progress to very well paid consultant posts, or failing that pretty-well rewarded work in general practice, and (b) the hours these days are nothing like they were 20 years ago, when extremely long hours were common. I am becoming less sympathetic because of the timing of the latest English strike, which I think will cost lives and a great deal of suffering, especially for older patients. I think previous generations of doctors would have hesitated to strike in this way (I know there was a shorter strike re private practice in Barbara Castle's day), and this may be an indication of cultural change.


I agree cultural change but previous generations of doctors could afford to by a house. That starting wage is approaching a multiple of 7 to buy an average house in Swansea, with a big student debt on the horizon.

Many will not progress to the upper end of the pay scale os they go off abroad.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 12:54]
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Doctors strike. on 12:56 - Dec 22 with 2251 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 11:17 - Dec 22 by waynekerr55

You're either an excellent wind up merchant or you're terminally stupid. Which one is it? Which part about junior doctors get paid less now than they did in 2008 is that hard to comprehend?

It's got nothing to do with greed because if it was you'd be opining on those parasites who robbed the public purse during covid.


He won’t accept it. See also austerity, teacher shortages and the why many civil servants are working from home.
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Doctors strike. on 13:45 - Dec 22 with 2216 viewsAnotherJohn

The opening post quoted the following:

"If Victoria Atkins genuinely believes that junior doctors are ‘in training’, then she doesn’t understand her brief and she is unfit to be Secretary of State for Health."

Atkins' statement was ill judged in terms of tone, but it has to be said that it does reflect the terminology used in the current UK grading system for junior doctors. Of course, that is not to say that junior doctors are not undertaking a substantial proportion of the work of hospital medicine, or that the top Registrar grades haven't pretty much completed their training. Just for reference though these are the grades.

Foundation training (first two years after graduation):
FY1 - complete internship necessary for GMC registration
FY2 - usually in teaching hospital

Junior Middle Grade (2 routes)

(a) Speciality trainee (mainly for surgical specialties)
ST1 and ST2 (first two years of specialty training)

(b) Core trainee (mainly for medical specialties)
CT1 and CT2 (may be more than 2 years before ST3)

Senior Middle Grade (ST3-ST8) - sometimes known as Registrar grades.
Doctors have now decided on speciality, receive further training, and gain experience, including of independent advanced practice.
At conclusion awarded Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT), which then allows entry to the GMC specialist register, or the GP register.

Can then progress to Specialty Doctor (a senior grade with fewer responsibilities than Consultant), or Consultant. Some become GPs.

So although some Registrars might be turned off by what the Minister said, there is a basis for the language of training.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 14:07]
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Doctors strike. on 14:24 - Dec 22 with 2189 viewswaynekerr55

Doctors strike. on 13:45 - Dec 22 by AnotherJohn

The opening post quoted the following:

"If Victoria Atkins genuinely believes that junior doctors are ‘in training’, then she doesn’t understand her brief and she is unfit to be Secretary of State for Health."

Atkins' statement was ill judged in terms of tone, but it has to be said that it does reflect the terminology used in the current UK grading system for junior doctors. Of course, that is not to say that junior doctors are not undertaking a substantial proportion of the work of hospital medicine, or that the top Registrar grades haven't pretty much completed their training. Just for reference though these are the grades.

Foundation training (first two years after graduation):
FY1 - complete internship necessary for GMC registration
FY2 - usually in teaching hospital

Junior Middle Grade (2 routes)

(a) Speciality trainee (mainly for surgical specialties)
ST1 and ST2 (first two years of specialty training)

(b) Core trainee (mainly for medical specialties)
CT1 and CT2 (may be more than 2 years before ST3)

Senior Middle Grade (ST3-ST8) - sometimes known as Registrar grades.
Doctors have now decided on speciality, receive further training, and gain experience, including of independent advanced practice.
At conclusion awarded Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT), which then allows entry to the GMC specialist register, or the GP register.

Can then progress to Specialty Doctor (a senior grade with fewer responsibilities than Consultant), or Consultant. Some become GPs.

So although some Registrars might be turned off by what the Minister said, there is a basis for the language of training.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 14:07]


Funnily enough Iain Dale mentioned this last night. It's a reasonable point but one that is clumsy at best. There's a lack of competence in the cabinet and this is just basic

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Doctors strike. on 14:45 - Dec 22 with 2173 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 13:45 - Dec 22 by AnotherJohn

The opening post quoted the following:

"If Victoria Atkins genuinely believes that junior doctors are ‘in training’, then she doesn’t understand her brief and she is unfit to be Secretary of State for Health."

Atkins' statement was ill judged in terms of tone, but it has to be said that it does reflect the terminology used in the current UK grading system for junior doctors. Of course, that is not to say that junior doctors are not undertaking a substantial proportion of the work of hospital medicine, or that the top Registrar grades haven't pretty much completed their training. Just for reference though these are the grades.

Foundation training (first two years after graduation):
FY1 - complete internship necessary for GMC registration
FY2 - usually in teaching hospital

Junior Middle Grade (2 routes)

(a) Speciality trainee (mainly for surgical specialties)
ST1 and ST2 (first two years of specialty training)

(b) Core trainee (mainly for medical specialties)
CT1 and CT2 (may be more than 2 years before ST3)

Senior Middle Grade (ST3-ST8) - sometimes known as Registrar grades.
Doctors have now decided on speciality, receive further training, and gain experience, including of independent advanced practice.
At conclusion awarded Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT), which then allows entry to the GMC specialist register, or the GP register.

Can then progress to Specialty Doctor (a senior grade with fewer responsibilities than Consultant), or Consultant. Some become GPs.

So although some Registrars might be turned off by what the Minister said, there is a basis for the language of training.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 14:07]


Would we call a barrister a trainee barrister until they become a KC? Same Same.

I’d also say tone is everything when there’s an industrial despite. The tone and terminology were deliberate.
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Doctors strike. on 14:45 - Dec 22 with 2173 viewsSullutaCreturned

Doctors strike. on 14:24 - Dec 22 by waynekerr55

Funnily enough Iain Dale mentioned this last night. It's a reasonable point but one that is clumsy at best. There's a lack of competence in the cabinet and this is just basic


Clumsy at best is spot on and maybe it was meant to be incitement by a politican who earns a lot more than these doctors but whose decisions usually cost lives.
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Doctors strike. on 17:12 - Dec 22 with 2141 viewsAnotherJohn

Doctors strike. on 14:45 - Dec 22 by Gwyn737

Would we call a barrister a trainee barrister until they become a KC? Same Same.

I’d also say tone is everything when there’s an industrial despite. The tone and terminology were deliberate.


I'm afraid you were simply wrong on this Gwyn and are just digging yourself a deeper pit. Just google "certificate of completion of training" if you wish to check. There is such as thing as "bar training", which involves "pupillage". So during the work-based component of training an aspiring barrister is a pupil. Same, same indeed.
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Doctors strike. on 17:22 - Dec 22 with 2137 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 17:12 - Dec 22 by AnotherJohn

I'm afraid you were simply wrong on this Gwyn and are just digging yourself a deeper pit. Just google "certificate of completion of training" if you wish to check. There is such as thing as "bar training", which involves "pupillage". So during the work-based component of training an aspiring barrister is a pupil. Same, same indeed.


Disagree.

The terms are comparable although I concede that the numbers differ.

Out of the 100k doctors in the NHS about half are junior doctors. Around half of that amount are in the senior bracket. Were nit talking students here.

It was a deliberate comment to incite.

Not a surprise, mind.
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Doctors strike. on 21:42 - Dec 22 with 2075 viewsBryanSwan

Doctors strike. on 08:07 - Dec 22 by Gwyn737

We’re short of doctors though, aren’t we? You have to pay people their worth or they’ll do something else.

I know you think public service is a vocation and people should do it for altruistic reasons, but when people don’t what happens then?

I’m sure that deliberately insulting doctors - which is exactly what the minister did - isn’t going to help recruitment either.

Edit: I just looked up first year doctor pay after the increase - £32,300. After all that training and the associated debt. Doesn’t seem commensurate to me.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 8:13]


It so blatantly obvious that there needs to be more funding to those studying to go into the medical profession. It would increase the amount of nurses and doctors whilst also lowering their debt burden and increasing their satisfaction with pay.

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Doctors strike. on 02:04 - Dec 23 with 2031 viewsRobbie

Out of concern has anyone had a face to face consultation lately with a Doctor , not me .

Jump through hoops to get to see a receptionist in my Primary Care Clinic .

Then follows no 1 -2-1 advice from the Doctor , send photos and a chat over the phone that will solve the ailment .

Luckily enough on the last 2 occasions of personal issues , I had the means to go Private .

NHS , the nurses at the sharp end of this organisation carry the can and take the insults .

When I did at last see a Doctor , Triage system applied for the Health Centre referred to Baglan Hospital for further testing , that was back in September , nothing since then .

Pains me to say it , know a friend who covers in A+E , and a good one along side others .

Nurses ending their shifts in tears , angry and depressed , witnessed it myself first hand .

Will the Nurses strike , very much doubt it .

Wonder how many of these Angels will get an OBE in the New Years Honours .
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Doctors strike. on 08:52 - Dec 23 with 1988 viewsfelixstowe_jack

Doctors strike. on 08:07 - Dec 22 by Gwyn737

We’re short of doctors though, aren’t we? You have to pay people their worth or they’ll do something else.

I know you think public service is a vocation and people should do it for altruistic reasons, but when people don’t what happens then?

I’m sure that deliberately insulting doctors - which is exactly what the minister did - isn’t going to help recruitment either.

Edit: I just looked up first year doctor pay after the increase - £32,300. After all that training and the associated debt. Doesn’t seem commensurate to me.
[Post edited 22 Dec 2023 8:13]


It soon rises. Everyone starts on lower wages but they get guaranteed pay rises every year and can soon be earning a lot more.

They have taken an oath to do no harm.

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Doctors strike. on 08:55 - Dec 23 with 1985 viewsfelixstowe_jack

Doctors strike. on 11:17 - Dec 22 by waynekerr55

You're either an excellent wind up merchant or you're terminally stupid. Which one is it? Which part about junior doctors get paid less now than they did in 2008 is that hard to comprehend?

It's got nothing to do with greed because if it was you'd be opining on those parasites who robbed the public purse during covid.


Only they don't lower wages than the did in 2008 do they.

After a few years they can earn £56,000 .
Plus they have already had an 8.8% wage increase already this year and another 3% as well.

The independent institute of fiscal studies has found that in real terms their wages has fallen by 16% not the 35% their union has claimed. Without the surge in inflation over the last two years they would be on parity with what they earned in 2008. The 11% pay award address most of that and is more than the independent pay review body recommended.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 9:01]

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Doctors strike. on 10:06 - Dec 23 with 1946 viewscontroversial_jack

Doctors strike. on 02:04 - Dec 23 by Robbie

Out of concern has anyone had a face to face consultation lately with a Doctor , not me .

Jump through hoops to get to see a receptionist in my Primary Care Clinic .

Then follows no 1 -2-1 advice from the Doctor , send photos and a chat over the phone that will solve the ailment .

Luckily enough on the last 2 occasions of personal issues , I had the means to go Private .

NHS , the nurses at the sharp end of this organisation carry the can and take the insults .

When I did at last see a Doctor , Triage system applied for the Health Centre referred to Baglan Hospital for further testing , that was back in September , nothing since then .

Pains me to say it , know a friend who covers in A+E , and a good one along side others .

Nurses ending their shifts in tears , angry and depressed , witnessed it myself first hand .

Will the Nurses strike , very much doubt it .

Wonder how many of these Angels will get an OBE in the New Years Honours .


Not just nurses. Don't forget the health care assistants, care workers, cleaners etc. these are the backbone of hospitals and get paid just above minimum rate
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Doctors strike. on 15:47 - Dec 23 with 1893 viewswaynekerr55

Doctors strike. on 08:55 - Dec 23 by felixstowe_jack

Only they don't lower wages than the did in 2008 do they.

After a few years they can earn £56,000 .
Plus they have already had an 8.8% wage increase already this year and another 3% as well.

The independent institute of fiscal studies has found that in real terms their wages has fallen by 16% not the 35% their union has claimed. Without the surge in inflation over the last two years they would be on parity with what they earned in 2008. The 11% pay award address most of that and is more than the independent pay review body recommended.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 9:01]


Well they actually do with the rocketing costs of their student loan.

And would you tolerate a 16% pay cut too? Tell me, why are you so silent on the way Serco, capita and the crong contracts have robbed the public purse? Are some scroungers more equal than others?

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Doctors strike. on 17:57 - Dec 23 with 1855 viewsScotia

Doctors strike. on 08:55 - Dec 23 by felixstowe_jack

Only they don't lower wages than the did in 2008 do they.

After a few years they can earn £56,000 .
Plus they have already had an 8.8% wage increase already this year and another 3% as well.

The independent institute of fiscal studies has found that in real terms their wages has fallen by 16% not the 35% their union has claimed. Without the surge in inflation over the last two years they would be on parity with what they earned in 2008. The 11% pay award address most of that and is more than the independent pay review body recommended.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 9:01]


£56000 is what many footballers earn in a week. How many lives do they save each day?

The minister was factually wrong and condescending.

Studying medicine is a vocation that only the intellectually elite can follow, they aren't asking for a fortune. Just negotiate and reach a settlement.
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Doctors strike. on 18:17 - Dec 23 with 1844 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 17:57 - Dec 23 by Scotia

£56000 is what many footballers earn in a week. How many lives do they save each day?

The minister was factually wrong and condescending.

Studying medicine is a vocation that only the intellectually elite can follow, they aren't asking for a fortune. Just negotiate and reach a settlement.


As they have done with practically all the other public sector strikes- pretend to be strong while calling them names and using half-truths, cause a load of damage along the way before climbing down and settling.
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Doctors strike. on 18:19 - Dec 23 with 1844 viewsAnotherJohn

Doctors strike. on 17:57 - Dec 23 by Scotia

£56000 is what many footballers earn in a week. How many lives do they save each day?

The minister was factually wrong and condescending.

Studying medicine is a vocation that only the intellectually elite can follow, they aren't asking for a fortune. Just negotiate and reach a settlement.


"Factually wrong"?

I am left surprised that some posters take a completely illogical position on whether, in terms of their formal employment position, junior doctors are "doctors in training." How can they not be when the highest grades of ST4 to ST8 include the abbreviation for
"specialty trainee" (ST), and they have not yet received their Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT)? When such doctors have received the CCT and use that to get on either the GMC specialist register or GP register they are no longer junior doctors; before they get their CCT they have not completed training.

I fully agree that the Minister's remark was ill judged, and designed to make a negotiating point likely to harden attitudes rather than encourage compromise, but when it comes to factual accuracy that is irrelevant. The poster on X on the other hand doesn't seem to know his gluteus maximus from his cubitus.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 18:20]
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Doctors strike. on 19:32 - Dec 23 with 1816 viewsGwyn737

Doctors strike. on 18:19 - Dec 23 by AnotherJohn

"Factually wrong"?

I am left surprised that some posters take a completely illogical position on whether, in terms of their formal employment position, junior doctors are "doctors in training." How can they not be when the highest grades of ST4 to ST8 include the abbreviation for
"specialty trainee" (ST), and they have not yet received their Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT)? When such doctors have received the CCT and use that to get on either the GMC specialist register or GP register they are no longer junior doctors; before they get their CCT they have not completed training.

I fully agree that the Minister's remark was ill judged, and designed to make a negotiating point likely to harden attitudes rather than encourage compromise, but when it comes to factual accuracy that is irrelevant. The poster on X on the other hand doesn't seem to know his gluteus maximus from his cubitus.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 18:20]


For clarity, it was the first video I found on twitter after watching it live.

It was the video I wanted front and centre, not the bloke off twitter (I’ve no idea who he is).

Having said this that, there’s an awful lot of doctors (who are not yet consultants or GPs) and patients (many of whom will be on wards staffed only with ‘junior’ doctors) who are upset about it so she’s achieved her MO.

A totally unnecessary comment.
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Doctors strike. on 19:32 - Dec 23 with 1816 viewsScotia

Doctors strike. on 18:19 - Dec 23 by AnotherJohn

"Factually wrong"?

I am left surprised that some posters take a completely illogical position on whether, in terms of their formal employment position, junior doctors are "doctors in training." How can they not be when the highest grades of ST4 to ST8 include the abbreviation for
"specialty trainee" (ST), and they have not yet received their Certificate of Completion of Training (CCT)? When such doctors have received the CCT and use that to get on either the GMC specialist register or GP register they are no longer junior doctors; before they get their CCT they have not completed training.

I fully agree that the Minister's remark was ill judged, and designed to make a negotiating point likely to harden attitudes rather than encourage compromise, but when it comes to factual accuracy that is irrelevant. The poster on X on the other hand doesn't seem to know his gluteus maximus from his cubitus.
[Post edited 23 Dec 2023 18:20]


Yes factually wrong.

The minister said "Doctors in training" they're fully qualified doctors who are training in a speciality until they become a consultant or GP. She didn't say that she prefers to call them "Doctors in training to be a specialist".

Anyway, it's a shocking thing for a health minister to say.
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