| Brentfart splashing the cash 20:31 - May 28 with 8744 views | NoDiddley |
Just signed Danish midfielder for £2.8million
We've bid £1.99 for Rab McSkinny from non league Vermin United
How things have changed  |  | | |  |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:58 - May 29 with 2329 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:21 - May 29 by daveB |
thats like saying it's unfair that Uncle Frank could go out drink driving years ago and would get a slap on the wrist but would get a different punishment now
We can't really complain that the rules have changed and punishments are different now, the fine supposedly is being paid by the shareholders so club shouldn't be affected next season.
The punishment is not supposed to affect them next season it was a points deduction for this season, if they break it again next year they'll be punished next season but if they comply they don't get punished again which is just about as fair as you can be.
Big thing with FFP will be what happens with Derby next season now that Steve Gibson has gone after them and the fact they lost the playoffs |
Also another difference is that Birmingham broke the rules but didn’t go up. So didn’t actually benefit from it financially and got points deduction. We on the other hands broke the rules and went up earning £100m+. So a fine for us is more appropriate even if the amount is disproportionate. |  |
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 18:45 - May 29 with 2238 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:58 - May 29 by CliveWilsonSaid |
Also another difference is that Birmingham broke the rules but didn’t go up. So didn’t actually benefit from it financially and got points deduction. We on the other hands broke the rules and went up earning £100m+. So a fine for us is more appropriate even if the amount is disproportionate. |
The results on the pitch should make no difference whatsoever to FFP but of course they do as promoted teams can get away with it as the EFL can't touch them unless they're relegated again. Why should Birmingham be treated more leniently because they were still rubbish on the pitch despite spending loads? |  | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 18:48 - May 29 with 2235 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:21 - May 29 by daveB |
thats like saying it's unfair that Uncle Frank could go out drink driving years ago and would get a slap on the wrist but would get a different punishment now
We can't really complain that the rules have changed and punishments are different now, the fine supposedly is being paid by the shareholders so club shouldn't be affected next season.
The punishment is not supposed to affect them next season it was a points deduction for this season, if they break it again next year they'll be punished next season but if they comply they don't get punished again which is just about as fair as you can be.
Big thing with FFP will be what happens with Derby next season now that Steve Gibson has gone after them and the fact they lost the playoffs |
Punishments are different now but the point is they are now more lenient. It is normal practice under these circumstances that those penalised under the old more draconian rules are compensated. Birmingham in reality were not punished even though they where found guilty not only of breaking FFP but also for ignoring a transfer embargo. At the time of the nine point penalty they were not threatening the top six and in reality had enough points not to worry about relegation. Even we would have stayed up with a nine point penalty. A points deduction during a season is a lottery as to its effect. Although both having broken the rules and found guilty of it the FL allowed Birmingham to in effect get away with it whereas they came after us with a vengeance, it just leaves a sour taste. [Post edited 29 May 2019 18:57]
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 18:50 - May 29 with 2228 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:58 - May 29 by CliveWilsonSaid |
Also another difference is that Birmingham broke the rules but didn’t go up. So didn’t actually benefit from it financially and got points deduction. We on the other hands broke the rules and went up earning £100m+. So a fine for us is more appropriate even if the amount is disproportionate. |
Strange form of justice where you only get punished if you benefit from breaking th rules | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 19:24 - May 29 with 2180 views | daveB |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 18:45 - May 29 by Ned_Kennedys |
The results on the pitch should make no difference whatsoever to FFP but of course they do as promoted teams can get away with it as the EFL can't touch them unless they're relegated again. Why should Birmingham be treated more leniently because they were still rubbish on the pitch despite spending loads? |
Promoted teams get a fine which is what we got as we were promoted when we broke the rules |  | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 19:32 - May 29 with 2173 views | Roller |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 13:36 - May 29 by Northernr |
Yeh, well, we got £3m for a part used Alex Smithies so ner. |
£3 million Clive? Weren't all the reports for about £1.5 million? |  | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 19:34 - May 29 with 2168 views | daveB |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 18:48 - May 29 by QPR_John |
Punishments are different now but the point is they are now more lenient. It is normal practice under these circumstances that those penalised under the old more draconian rules are compensated. Birmingham in reality were not punished even though they where found guilty not only of breaking FFP but also for ignoring a transfer embargo. At the time of the nine point penalty they were not threatening the top six and in reality had enough points not to worry about relegation. Even we would have stayed up with a nine point penalty. A points deduction during a season is a lottery as to its effect. Although both having broken the rules and found guilty of it the FL allowed Birmingham to in effect get away with it whereas they came after us with a vengeance, it just leaves a sour taste. [Post edited 29 May 2019 18:57]
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They can't issue a points deduction though based on where you are in the league, that would be crazy to deduct Birmingham say 25 points so they are relegated but the same offence a year later the team are only 7 points from the drop so they get a 10 point deduction.
The way they have done it is a point deduction on a sliding scale depending on how far you broke the rules, 9 points might not seem a lot to some but it's a deterrent, if Birmingham were 2nd after breaking FFP this would have cost them automatic promotion
Really we can moan all we like about it, Blackburn and Forest will have complaints that we were not punished for several years whilst they suffered transfer embargos and a relegation due to breaching FFP. It's not a perfect system but I think we need to get over any perceived injustice towards ourselves.
We've had a decent budget the last 3 years, we've just not used it very well | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 19:43 - May 29 with 2150 views | Roller |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:21 - May 29 by daveB |
thats like saying it's unfair that Uncle Frank could go out drink driving years ago and would get a slap on the wrist but would get a different punishment now
We can't really complain that the rules have changed and punishments are different now, the fine supposedly is being paid by the shareholders so club shouldn't be affected next season.
The punishment is not supposed to affect them next season it was a points deduction for this season, if they break it again next year they'll be punished next season but if they comply they don't get punished again which is just about as fair as you can be.
Big thing with FFP will be what happens with Derby next season now that Steve Gibson has gone after them and the fact they lost the playoffs |
You are wasting your breath Dave, although I do admire your stamina.
How the EFL are handling Birmingham city now is the only new point here, the rest have been explained and ignored before.
They got punished for exceeding their FFP limit for 2015/16, 16/17 and 17/18. Because of the sums involved they will also have exceeded their FFP limit for 2016/17, 17,18 and 18/19 unless they turned a profit of almost £8 million (after disallowable costs) last season.
They can't be given a clean slate so perhaps they will have to adhere to not losing more than £13 million per season until they have their rolling 3-year loss back under £39 million. [Post edited 29 May 2019 19:49]
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 20:20 - May 29 with 2111 views | derbyhoop |
We've already signed 2 players, Bettache and Bansal-McNulty.
I like B-N's attitude that he recognises that he still has to work hard. First pro contract is not enough |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 21:49 - May 29 with 2017 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 19:34 - May 29 by daveB |
They can't issue a points deduction though based on where you are in the league, that would be crazy to deduct Birmingham say 25 points so they are relegated but the same offence a year later the team are only 7 points from the drop so they get a 10 point deduction.
The way they have done it is a point deduction on a sliding scale depending on how far you broke the rules, 9 points might not seem a lot to some but it's a deterrent, if Birmingham were 2nd after breaking FFP this would have cost them automatic promotion
Really we can moan all we like about it, Blackburn and Forest will have complaints that we were not punished for several years whilst they suffered transfer embargos and a relegation due to breaching FFP. It's not a perfect system but I think we need to get over any perceived injustice towards ourselves.
We've had a decent budget the last 3 years, we've just not used it very well |
"They can't issue a points deduction though based on where you are in the league, that would be crazy to deduct Birmingham say 25 points so they are relegated but the same offence a year later the team are only 7 points from the drop so they get a 10 point deduction. "
Of course they cannot. But I am not advocating that, my point is 9 points is not a deterrent. As I said earlier we would not have been relegated with a 9 point deduction. Only Reading and Millwall would have been relegated. Any team that breaks FFP and ends up with less than 9 points from 22nd place deserves to be relegated. So the only teams that suffer are the top 6 and I expect that is a gamble they are prepared to make. Not much of a deterrent is it. It is not an injustice against us it is an injustice against all teams that have had a penalty that hurts. I just do not understand how you cannot see that. [Post edited 29 May 2019 21:52]
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 00:02 - May 30 with 1921 views | daveB |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 21:49 - May 29 by QPR_John |
"They can't issue a points deduction though based on where you are in the league, that would be crazy to deduct Birmingham say 25 points so they are relegated but the same offence a year later the team are only 7 points from the drop so they get a 10 point deduction. "
Of course they cannot. But I am not advocating that, my point is 9 points is not a deterrent. As I said earlier we would not have been relegated with a 9 point deduction. Only Reading and Millwall would have been relegated. Any team that breaks FFP and ends up with less than 9 points from 22nd place deserves to be relegated. So the only teams that suffer are the top 6 and I expect that is a gamble they are prepared to make. Not much of a deterrent is it. It is not an injustice against us it is an injustice against all teams that have had a penalty that hurts. I just do not understand how you cannot see that. [Post edited 29 May 2019 21:52]
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how many points would you deduct then and would it be the same for all teams or just ones who are safe in mid table?
9 points taken off us in March would have relegated us imo, the team was already low in confidence and that would have killed us, we'd have struggled to get the few extra points we did if we were in a genuine relegation battle rather than at arms length
Still those who fail FFP are likely to be teams around the top 6 unless they have spent the money as badly as us or Birmingham and for all of them this season 9 points off in March would have left them with a tough task of recovering and getting promoted [Post edited 30 May 2019 0:04]
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 00:43 - May 30 with 1897 views | smegma |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 20:20 - May 29 by derbyhoop |
We've already signed 2 players, Bettache and Bansal-McNulty.
I like B-N's attitude that he recognises that he still has to work hard. First pro contract is not enough |
But its slightly different in that we havnt exactly bought them as both came through the Academy. A year ago they were given 'extended scholarships' whereby they joined the u23 squad as they were too old for the u18s. So they weren't getting paid I believe while playing alongside pros in the reserves.Mustve been very dispiriting but they knuckled down and started to shine in the last 3 months of the season.Really pleased they have signed pro as both boys are talented midfielders. | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 05:50 - May 30 with 1823 views | loftboy |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 19:32 - May 29 by Roller |
£3 million Clive? Weren't all the reports for about £1.5 million? |
Knowing our luck half of it will be based on appearances! |  |
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 07:00 - May 30 with 1767 views | distortR |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 00:02 - May 30 by daveB |
how many points would you deduct then and would it be the same for all teams or just ones who are safe in mid table?
9 points taken off us in March would have relegated us imo, the team was already low in confidence and that would have killed us, we'd have struggled to get the few extra points we did if we were in a genuine relegation battle rather than at arms length
Still those who fail FFP are likely to be teams around the top 6 unless they have spent the money as badly as us or Birmingham and for all of them this season 9 points off in March would have left them with a tough task of recovering and getting promoted [Post edited 30 May 2019 0:04]
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daveb - you say, and I quote you, "still those who fail ffp are likely to be teams around the top 6 unless they have spent the money as badly as us or birmingham"
surely this should be written as, "still those who fail ffp are likely to be teams around the top 6 or recent employers of harry redknapp"
Yours etc,
gus | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 10:45 - May 30 with 1629 views | derbyhoop |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 00:43 - May 30 by smegma |
But its slightly different in that we havnt exactly bought them as both came through the Academy. A year ago they were given 'extended scholarships' whereby they joined the u23 squad as they were too old for the u18s. So they weren't getting paid I believe while playing alongside pros in the reserves.Mustve been very dispiriting but they knuckled down and started to shine in the last 3 months of the season.Really pleased they have signed pro as both boys are talented midfielders. |
I was being flippant - even if that didn't come across.
However, it is an indication that we are unlikely to be signing many, and certainly won't be paying out much in fees. Bringing through our own has to be a major part of the business model. Let's hope there are more in the pipeline - Gubbins, Carlyle, Kendall, Mema? | |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 10:50 - May 30 with 1617 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 00:02 - May 30 by daveB |
how many points would you deduct then and would it be the same for all teams or just ones who are safe in mid table?
9 points taken off us in March would have relegated us imo, the team was already low in confidence and that would have killed us, we'd have struggled to get the few extra points we did if we were in a genuine relegation battle rather than at arms length
Still those who fail FFP are likely to be teams around the top 6 unless they have spent the money as badly as us or Birmingham and for all of them this season 9 points off in March would have left them with a tough task of recovering and getting promoted [Post edited 30 May 2019 0:04]
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Again you seem to be advocating penalising only those that are successful. As I said points deduction mid season is a lottery because as you say and I agree with you the deduction cannot depend on league position but league position determines the severity of the punishment. My view is that any points deduction should be enforced at the start of the season and it should be at least 15. Of course having said all that my feelings regarding FFP have been well documented in other posts.
The bottom line is that Birmingham start next season exactly as where they would have been if they had not broken FFP. Leicester and Bournemouth were allowed to do a deal with the FL for peanuts. There seems to be something odd there somewhere. [Post edited 30 May 2019 19:40]
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 15:58 - May 30 with 1507 views | smegma |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 10:45 - May 30 by derbyhoop |
I was being flippant - even if that didn't come across.
However, it is an indication that we are unlikely to be signing many, and certainly won't be paying out much in fees. Bringing through our own has to be a major part of the business model. Let's hope there are more in the pipeline - Gubbins, Carlyle, Kendall, Mema? |
Ah, understood.
Mema is still only 16 I believe | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 16:14 - May 30 with 1481 views | DejR_vu |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:21 - May 29 by daveB |
thats like saying it's unfair that Uncle Frank could go out drink driving years ago and would get a slap on the wrist but would get a different punishment now
We can't really complain that the rules have changed and punishments are different now, the fine supposedly is being paid by the shareholders so club shouldn't be affected next season.
The punishment is not supposed to affect them next season it was a points deduction for this season, if they break it again next year they'll be punished next season but if they comply they don't get punished again which is just about as fair as you can be.
Big thing with FFP will be what happens with Derby next season now that Steve Gibson has gone after them and the fact they lost the playoffs |
I's actually more like Uncle Frank going out drink-driving years ago and getting 10 years inside, but people doing it now getting a slap on the wrist. Similar offences, under similar regulations, within a few years of each other, with grossly disproportionate punishments. | |
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 20:13 - May 30 with 1346 views | daveB |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 10:50 - May 30 by QPR_John |
Again you seem to be advocating penalising only those that are successful. As I said points deduction mid season is a lottery because as you say and I agree with you the deduction cannot depend on league position but league position determines the severity of the punishment. My view is that any points deduction should be enforced at the start of the season and it should be at least 15. Of course having said all that my feelings regarding FFP have been well documented in other posts.
The bottom line is that Birmingham start next season exactly as where they would have been if they had not broken FFP. Leicester and Bournemouth were allowed to do a deal with the FL for peanuts. There seems to be something odd there somewhere. [Post edited 30 May 2019 19:40]
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I think anyone who breaks the rules should be punished, was just saying that those who break the rules by over spending are likely to have better teams and be in and around the top 6 so points deductions would hurt them more than a mid table side
I agree doing it at the start of the season would be so much better but problem with doing it at the start of the season is that financial results don't come out until half way through the season, would work a lot better if clubs had to submit finances to efl in the summer for the previous 12 months then you know at the start of the season who has points deductions and who doesn't, would make it a lot fairer but that would involve some brain power being used at the EFL
On Birmingham the FFP rules are over 3 year cycles so if they fail again (which is possible) they will face a harsher penalty next season if they passed for last year then you can't keep punishing them.
Leicester and Bournemouth both got fines on the same scale as our one under the old rules but they didn't break the rules as badly as we did so fine was a lot less | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 21:55 - May 30 with 1209 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 20:13 - May 30 by daveB |
I think anyone who breaks the rules should be punished, was just saying that those who break the rules by over spending are likely to have better teams and be in and around the top 6 so points deductions would hurt them more than a mid table side
I agree doing it at the start of the season would be so much better but problem with doing it at the start of the season is that financial results don't come out until half way through the season, would work a lot better if clubs had to submit finances to efl in the summer for the previous 12 months then you know at the start of the season who has points deductions and who doesn't, would make it a lot fairer but that would involve some brain power being used at the EFL
On Birmingham the FFP rules are over 3 year cycles so if they fail again (which is possible) they will face a harsher penalty next season if they passed for last year then you can't keep punishing them.
Leicester and Bournemouth both got fines on the same scale as our one under the old rules but they didn't break the rules as badly as we did so fine was a lot less |
I think we agree on most aspects not least your assertion of the lack of brain power at the FL. No point arguing over minor points. However my last point on the subject regards your last paragraph. I believe our original fine was in the region of £40 to £50M whereas Leicester and Bournemouth were fined £3.1M and £7.6M respectively. Did we break the rules by 13 tims as much as Leicester.
The bottom line for whatever reason we have been by far the most penalised of all the cases of FFP rule breaking. | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 22:39 - May 30 with 1173 views | daveB |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 21:55 - May 30 by QPR_John |
I think we agree on most aspects not least your assertion of the lack of brain power at the FL. No point arguing over minor points. However my last point on the subject regards your last paragraph. I believe our original fine was in the region of £40 to £50M whereas Leicester and Bournemouth were fined £3.1M and £7.6M respectively. Did we break the rules by 13 tims as much as Leicester.
The bottom line for whatever reason we have been by far the most penalised of all the cases of FFP rule breaking. |
We made a loss of 80 million that season, Leicester lost 21 million and Bournemouth 38 million so the fine they got was always going to be less than ours | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 13:25 - May 31 with 995 views | TGRRRSSS |
Ironic Bolton haven't been punished fro failing to pay people at all!
Before anyone says about the admin deduction that's for just that going into admin, not for failing to meet they're targets.
On the subject of which it's all gone very quiet on them... and Bury is it? |  | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:13 - May 31 with 902 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 22:39 - May 30 by daveB |
We made a loss of 80 million that season, Leicester lost 21 million and Bournemouth 38 million so the fine they got was always going to be less than ours |
So originally we were going to be fined half our losses whereas Leicester were fined one seventh of their losses and Bournemouth one fifth. Strange sliding scale would you not agree.
We are supposed to accept that FFP was introduced to stop clubs going into debt. You just wonder whoever came up with the idea also decided that the bigger the debt the bigger the fine. [Post edited 31 May 2019 17:21]
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| Brentfart splashing the cash on 17:23 - May 31 with 881 views | QPR_John |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 13:25 - May 31 by TGRRRSSS |
Ironic Bolton haven't been punished fro failing to pay people at all!
Before anyone says about the admin deduction that's for just that going into admin, not for failing to meet they're targets.
On the subject of which it's all gone very quiet on them... and Bury is it? |
No organisation got into debt by not paying money out and that is all FFP and the FL is concerned about | | | |
| Brentfart splashing the cash on 18:39 - May 31 with 844 views | DejR_vu |
We've had so many threads on FFP and still no one is any closer to coming up with anything that is remotely close to being consistent or equitable. We're going to end up with league tables with five pages of explanatory notes.
The whole thing's a farce. It's a failure of the authorities in their ability to govern. Rather than doing their jobs and making sure they're only giving potential owners who aren't going to shaft the clubs the green light to buy them, they just shaft the clubs themselves. They've got clubs selling their stadiums to comply. Genius. | |
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